A fan has highlighted similarities between a Dream Theater song and a Christian rock band - and former drummer Mike Portnoy agrees.
The opening song on Dream Theater's latest album "A Dramatic Turn Of Events" apparently sounds remarkably similar to a song by the band Red. The fan posted their observation on Dream Theater's forums, where other fans appear to be disappointed with the similarities.
Mike Portnoy decided to join with the discussion, taking an obvious jab at his former band mates: "Check out the first song on [John Petrucci's] fave album of the year... WOW, the arrangement and orchestration sounds awfully familiar! Surely it must be an intentional 'nugget' for the fans... It couldn't possibly be blatant formula plagiarism, now could it... ? I just have to laugh... [sic]"
When some fans took a dislike to Portnoy's tactless contribution to the discussion, he replied again: "Hey... I'm not trying to start a war... And I am indeed totally in a happy place in my life and career... I'm just merely making an observation and posting openly on my own forum like I always have and always will... If anybody ELSE wants to blow this up, it's their choice and doing... Not mine! [sic]"
It is not the first time Dream Theater have been accused of plagiarism. This year, some fans noted the similarities between their newest album and their 1992 release "Images And Words", suggesting they had even copied themselves in a bid to release new music.
John Petrucci later told Ultimate Guitar that he appreciates fans analyzing their music, but the similarities were down to the band having such a definitive style of their own.
"We really like music," Petrucci said. "We have a certain thing that we try to accomplish musically, a certain sound that makes us who we are. The core elements of Dream Theater, of who we are and how we make music. Those are elements that are identifiable. That's what gives the band its sound, and keeps the band having an identity."
Listen to the two songs here. Do you think they sound similar? Share your opinion in the comments.
A fan has highlighted similarities between a Dream Theater song and a Christian rock band - and former drummer Mike Portnoy agrees.
Annnnd of course he does.
You have to admit they do sound pretty familiar. Now I'd love to see how this plays off.
After years of people making the same stupid Coldplay Satriani joke, are they going to say this is a rip off as well, or just say it's coincidence because it's Dream Theater (and the former was just about disliking Coldplay/liking Satriani)?
*grabs popcorn*
Goddammit today sucks. first Christopher Hitchens dies and now this shit!? whats next!? next UG headline will be "Maynard James Keenan to guest star in glee"????
I wish fans would stop over analyzing DT's music, shut the **** up and enjoy it. I'm not mad keen on the track, but its a great album. I don't see how Portnoy's comments are helping the situation. He chose to leave, and thats ****ing that. fans are pissed enough as it is without shit being stirred. Fuck you blabbermouth, and could UG STOP USING THEIR ARTICLES?
I think how the song connects and progresses sounds similar, some parts in the verses, but other than that I don't really notice it. Probably a biased sentence here, but with all the music out there, something is bound to sound similar.
Petrucci did say on his list of his top albums of 2011 that Red's sound was a big influence for this one song. So of course it sounds a little similar, but it's not like he stole something from them.
Also, why does Portnoy have to be involved in just about every DT article now? We get the picture man, you left, now you want back in. But please don't act like this, it just makes you look like a bigger douche each time.
lol at Portnoy, what a ****ing child. I dont understand the whole ripping off images and words thing though, IAW was a glorious album whereas ADTOE is incredibly dull.
Petrucci said he drew inspiration from it, so you are bound to find similarities. They are not the same riff the DT riff is much more complex anyways. The Satch/Coldplay was a direct clone in many areas of the main melody of both songs. To even think this is a parallel is absurd...
similar format but not similar music. there are tons of songs the follow this format. and Portnoy come on Dream Theater aren't poking fun at your generic metal band, also that riff on Physcosane sounds alot like Lie.
The opening song on Dream Theater's latest album "A Dramatic Turn Of Events" apparently sounds remarkably similar to a song by the band Red
Its actually the second song on the album
Having seen many interviews and behind the scenes features, I know which way these guys write. They all have their influences, but almost everything they write, they write together while jamming.
I would rather say that in 'Build Me Up, Break Me Down' one certain riff together with the keyboarded background sounded a lot similar to chorus in Rammstein's song called Sonne. But the whole composition is way different. I don't see plagiarism in this case.
Uh... wow, that's actually really similar. Similar patterns in the riffs, chord progressions in the chorus. Granted, they're both pretty dull, but still.
I only hear vague similarities which ever douchebag originally thought of this should have their hearing checked.....both good songs and good bands btw
They're both common riffs, similar riffs are used in many other metal songs. Other than the one riff I don't hear much of a similarity.
Also:
"The opening song on Dream Theater's latest album "A Dramatic Turn Of Events""
It's not the opening song... big fail.
Hmm. Since screaming plagiarism is in vogue now, let me try:
The main riff of Helloween's song Final Fortune from album Gambling with the Devil (2007) sounds a lot like SOAD's Old School Hollywood.
Obviously, Helloween was just ripping SOAD off. It's not like there could ever be any overlap between songs when there are only so many possible notes, scales, and chord progressions to play. Yeah, that has nothing to do with it. PLAGIARISM, I say!
Let's ask a totally chilled, not-bitter-in-the-slightest, mud-slinging Portnoy what he thinks, shall we?
I was going to comment on how Mike Portnoy is a douche, but plenty of people beat me to it already. Oh well, I'll say it anyway: Mike Portnoy is a douche.
I don't think its plagiarism. The red song is generic . A lot of bands have stupid songs like this. Guess what, a lot of blues and rock musicians use the same riffs. If you wanna bitch about this then you have to bitch about that. Omg slayer, metallica, and megadeth all have songs that start in an open e chord. Better take em to court.
I haven't read any other comments so pls just bare with me here. I gave both a very strong listen and have feelings that they are very close but yet very different. As if DT heard this song before but really should we say that Portnoy was the Master song writer for DT? I run across things all the time that sound like someone else. like motley crue did a song called starry eyes that gave papa roach an idea. hmmm! take a close listen to motley crues mid break in the song and tell me any different. it happens all the time. so do we throw blame or just except it. riff for riff time for time beat for beat? how does it play out. none of the above. it just sounds close thats all.
if you play both songs at the same time it goes together pretty well actually haha. The words don't match up but the instruments do. If you start at 2:23 on Red's song and like 16 or 17 seconds in on DT's
This is retarded. I love Dream Theater, I really do, but they are one of the most plagarising bands of all time. Them doing a song that sounds slightly similar to someone elses is not news!
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
This is retarded. I love Dream Theater, I really do, but they are one of the most plagarising bands of all time. Them doing a song that sounds slightly similar to someone elses is not news!
Shit, I'd grab some more popcorn but I'm out at this point.
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
Are you serious? You do realize that the only thing that makes Christian rock 'Christian' are the lyrics, and EVERY singer writes lyrics about things that are important to them, that affect their lives, and that they're invested in emotionally, whether positive or negative, right?
Saying all Christian rock bands suck because they're 'using religion as a crutch' is like saying "all metal sucks because they're not using religion as a topic,' or that 'all country sucks because they're singing about relationships and breakups and their way of life.' And I always thought the 'spirit of rock and roll' was doing whatever you wanted with your rock music? Did this change when I wasn't looking?
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
Does nobody remember how similar Solitary Shell is to Peter Gabriel's Solsbury Hill? That was an intentional similarity and I'm sure this would be too. As mentioned above many times, Petrucci has even stated how Red's album influenced him! Dream Theater has always worn their influences on their sleeves and Portnoy should know this better than anyone. He is perfectly entitled to say what he wants, and I agree there are various similarities, but he went about voicing his opinion in a way that was guaranteed to cause a stir, I just hope it was without malicious intent.
I don't think DT are as original as they think they are; they can be VERY cliche, which is kinda what made me get past them after I stopped marveling over their technical ability.
I think they need a great songwriter like Steven Wilson to come in and edit all of their songs so that they're not so overdone; all they're missing is good songwriting (and a better singer).
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because that term seems to make non-Christian music fans (who are a majority of users here) angry for some reason, and UG just wants to start something.
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
Just to clarify, in my first comment, "non-Christian music fans" refers to music fans who aren't Christians, not people who aren't fans of Christian music.
Can't believe I actually used to admire that douchebag. All he wants is to take back at Dream Theater for not letting him back in, that sad old geezer thinking he's entitled for everything..
I don't think DT are as original as they think they are; they can be VERY cliche, which is kinda what made me get past them after I stopped marveling over their technical ability.
Absolutely, nor are they progressive as they think they are. They're really a prog-style metal band. Again, I'm not criticising their music; originality and progressiveness are not the determining factor in how good something sounds.
They may sound similar, but that doesn't mean plagiarism. There's enough music out there that occasionally one will stumble across two tracks that sound the same, but that doesn't mean its plagiarism, does it?
Also, I know websites and Rolling Stone like to ignore Dream Theater, but at least get your facts straight - Build Me Up Break Me Down is not the opening track on A Dramatic Turn of Events, On the Backs of Angels is.
its hardcore/metalcore/ whatever.....it all sounds the same.
Dream Theater is NOT hardcore/metalcore... how dare you say something. THEY ARE THE GODS OF PROGRESSIVE. Don't make ignorant statements...I just lost some of my faith for humanity thanks to your stupid comment.
They sound similar, whoop-de-do. There's thousands of other songs that also sound similar to each other, this is nothing new.
Do the math, out of all the bands that exist and out of the millions of songs these bands collectively produce, there are bound to be a few that sound similar. Where do you think the inspiration comes from to write a song? Other songs you've heard.
I don't think DT are as original as they think they are; they can be VERY cliche, which is kinda what made me get past them after I stopped marveling over their technical ability.
I think they need a great songwriter like Steven Wilson to come in and edit all of their songs so that they're not so overdone; all they're missing is good songwriting (and a better singer).
Last time they called in outside songwriting help, we got Falling Into Infinity, and I KNOW we don't want that to happen again.
I don't think DT are as original as they think they are; they can be VERY cliche, which is kinda what made me get past them after I stopped marveling over their technical ability.
I think they need a great songwriter like Steven Wilson to come in and edit all of their songs so that they're not so overdone; all they're missing is good songwriting (and a better singer).
Last time they called in outside songwriting help, we got Falling Into Infinity, and I KNOW we don't want that to happen again.
Are you implying that Falling Into Infinity was a bad album?!
You must be nuts. I'd take it over Train Of Thought, Octavarium, Systematic Chaos, BC&SL, and Dramatic Turn Of Events any day.
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
Seventh Day Slumber, Casting Crowns, POD, As I Lay Dying.. I could go on. Shut yourself up and go back to your hole.
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
Seventh Day Slumber, Casting Crowns, POD, As I Lay Dying.. I could go on. Shut yourself up and go back to your hole.
I'd add Demon Hunter in there as well. Not to mention Pillar, Kutless, 12 Stones, Blindside, Disciple (early stuff specifically), Neal Morse, Project 86, Thousand Foot Krutch, and that's just off the top of my head.
I think this is all a plot to get people to actually listen to their music and see for themselves. And to get that other band some views. Sneaky bastards *shakes fist*
"It is not the first time Dream Theater have been accused of plagiarism. This year, some fans noted the similarities between their newest album and their 1992 release "Images And Words", suggesting they had even copied themselves in a bid to release new music. "
I thought it was already well known that all Dream Theater albums sound the same?
First of all, RED are quite possibly the best modern rock band out there, outside of Alter Bridge. They might not have the instrumental abilities of some other artists, but the pure emotion that they display is nothing short of amazing. They are easily the best live performance I've ever seen. Even if you aren't that close to God, you feel his presence when you're at one of their shows.
I don't care if the riffs are essentially the same, because drawing inspiration from RED. I'm just happy that Petrucci has given them some credit for "Until We Have Faces."
By the way, denying that the riffs are essentially the same is downright foolish.
There's more resemblance in the structure of the song than in the actual music, there's not really much to complain about. I vastly prefer "Build Me Up...", don't really like the vocals or the dischordant parts in "Feed the Machine".
Mike Portnoy should really just try to get over DT, they're doing great right now so there's probably not much chance of them wanting him back.
U2 are regarded as the biggest christian rock band in the world, without tying themselves to that label, google it.
Don't get me wrong, U2 can go **** themselves but like it or not they've sold tons. yeah by and large christian rock bands suck ass, I cannot think one I listen to at all..I mean I must listen to christians who make music but people who use it as a gimmick.
on topic, haven't dream theater stolen riffs before? something you notice when you listen to enough Pink Floyd and ELP..but here's some examples
It may have been just a coincidence, but the riffs are nearly identical and the vocals melodies and patterns are nearly identical. I don't know if this was intentional or not, but I can see a judge siding with RED if they were to take this to court.
Yeah, they sound similar. I dunno what happened during the composition process of both bands, but I don't care.
What I wanted to point out is the part that says
fans noted the similarities between their newest album and their 1992 release "Images And Words", suggesting they had even copied themselves
... seriously? Are you serious? it's Dream Theater's own music... they play it on all of their concerts...and you still complain that they used their own music to create more of their own music?...Damn! That's just...(there's no words for this).
i am a big DT fan.. And holy crap is all i could say. They really are very similar but it sounds like DT to me.. So maybe they were ripped off? Maybe? LOL IDK but I like both songs lol
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because it's their gimmick. I know of them. I think they're from around here.
They're one of those bands that claims to be a Christian band, yet you would probably never figure it out just by listening to their music. Creed's earlier stuff sounds more Christian than theirs does.
Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying they're not Christians. You just don't have to label your music as Christian Rock just because of your beliefs (Dave Mustaine).
The difference between Christian music and regular Secular music is all about the lyrical content. If your words are inaudible or your message is unclear, as both sometimes occur in Red's case, I just don't see how you can call it Christian Rock.
It's their gimmick. It's how they've found success -- through support of religious organizations/individuals. I know another band, personally, that is the same exact way, and, not so ironically, they've toured with Red and very much enjoy their music.
So, all in all, it just seems like a gimmick. I call it Gimmick Rock, but then I'm not comfortable putting them in the same category as Kiss and Slipknot.
How are they similar? The Four Horsemen and The Mechanix are similar songs. These are not.
No kidding. Also even if Petrucci was listening to this album who the **** cares? I find when im writing songs whatever is in my head that day or what Im listening to influences my music. Are the songs the same? Fuck no..not even close. Ohhhh look a heavy riff followed by background effects for the verse...These songs are sooooo similar
U2 are regarded as the biggest christian rock band in the world, without tying themselves to that label, google it.
Don't get me wrong, U2 can go **** themselves but like it or not they've sold tons. yeah by and large christian rock bands suck ass, I cannot think one I listen to at all..I mean I must listen to christians who make music but people who use it as a gimmick.
on topic, haven't dream theater stolen riffs before? something you notice when you listen to enough Pink Floyd and ELP..but here's some examples
Micheal Jackson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STXFFYcuhuw
Dream Theater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_XhnHbdqWA
Corrosion Of Conformity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sYae25hnKI
Dream Theater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muiNqF_XJJc
Peter Gabriel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fF8wU4Nl9Y
Dream Theater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FVp2rw1BFQ
Wo ah... I never even knew. The MJ/endless sacrifice riff is way too common to call it copying tbh.
But those other two are literally copy+pasted by DT :p
How are they similar? The Four Horsemen and The Mechanix are similar songs. These are not.
The Four Horsemen and Mechanic are the same song with different lyrics and passages. The music to both, aside from the bridge in The Four Horsemen, was written by Dave Mustaine.
These songs are fairly to extremely similar, yet I don't think much would be said about it if Petrucci hadn't stated that Red's music was a significant, direct influence on this particular song. That makes the similarities even easier to point out, because he gave people somewhere to look; it makes people quicker to point their finger and call it out, seeing as how he admitted it was an influence (or more).
if portnoy was as happy as he says he is, why does he feel the need to mention it every time hes trying to cut down dream theater? hes just turning into a whiney little girl....
Portnoy is no longer a part of DT, so stop adding him into anything that has to do with current Dream Theater. Go ahead and talk about him all you want when he actually was in Dream Theater, but leave him out of the rest. And what your saying about the songs sounding the same, I might as well just say "HURR DURR The Ramones copied the Sex Pistols, because they play the same type of music." Besides, Build Me Up isn't even the best song on the album. End rant.
(not saying the Ramones copied the Sex Pistols, just making fun of this idiotic argument started by Portnoy.)
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
Not Christian Rock, but '80s Christian Metal was some of the best Metal.
Two examples: Saint and Trouble. Black Sabbath has some (proChristian songs, too, so I might as well throw that in as well.
Similar, but not the same. People...it's just notes on the same scale.
There are only so many ways to play notes on the same scale...and sound decent.
Next your gonna freak out on every song that has a 1,4,5 blues shuffle.,
haha it is ridiculous hah Dream Theater doesnґt need to copy anybody, influence and copy are different terms.... what do we have to do? listen to the song backwards maybe
Mike Portnoy is being a dick. People steal riffs/chord progressions/arrangements all the time and nobody whines that much about it, unless perhaps they're a little sour about being kicked out of a certain band...
I think influence and plagiarism are two different things, yet people can't realize it. Although this is a lot better than half the similarities i've seen on the internet. It's liable.
I've heard plenty of Avenged Sevenfold riffs that have an uncanny similarity to Pantera riffs. But ya know, whatever.
OHHH And "Octavarium" has a part that copies off "Farewell to Kings" by Rush. LaBrie's vocals cover it up to where it's not as noticable but the rhythm is EXACTLY the same.
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Im sorry, but am I the only one who finds this funny?
On the article: I rolled my eyes before I even clicked on this one. Portnoy seems kind of like a butthurt douche to me, now I'm not a huge fan of DT A7X or any other Portnoy related projects so I'm just commenting on what i've read on this site, which we all know can be a little misleading... But seriously, you'd think he would let it go by now.
Oh and the songs, similar but def not plagiarism
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
August Burns Red. They rock and they're Christian.
This is probably the most publicity Red will ever get that being said, their first album was good, and they're great live, but I've no idea how a band can make the exact same album three times and evidence zero growth or new ideas...
I didn't listen through the whole thing, but these songs are clearly unrelated. I'm kind of shocked that Portnoy, who is obviously musically intelligent enough to recognize that the songs are different, would go out there and insinuate plagiarism for no reason at all. I used to be on Portnoy's side after he left Dream Theater, but after asking to come back, nearly suing them, and being generally spiteful about it, it's becoming clear that he's kind of a selfish dick.
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
U2 are regarded as the biggest christian rock band in the world, without tying themselves to that label, google it.
Don't get me wrong, U2 can go **** themselves but like it or not they've sold tons. yeah by and large christian rock bands suck ass, I cannot think one I listen to at all..I mean I must listen to christians who make music but people who use it as a gimmick.
on topic, haven't dream theater stolen riffs before? something you notice when you listen to enough Pink Floyd and ELP..but here's some examples
Micheal Jackson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STXFFYcuhuw
Dream Theater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_XhnHbdqWA
Corrosion Of Conformity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sYae25hnKI
Dream Theater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muiNqF_XJJc
Peter Gabriel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fF8wU4Nl9Y
Dream Theater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FVp2rw1BFQ
Ho w is having an idea for songwriting topics a gimmick? You might as well say Coheed and Cambria uses the Amory Wars as a gimmick for their music, or any other concept band.
LOL. They ARE very similar. I listened to the Dream Theater song first and thought it sounded like a Red riff to begin with. Oh well. Red makes some pretty good tunes, and I could care less about DT.
Portnoy's fallen in love with the Internet. He humps its leg like a little puntable dog. What a sad, sad thing he has become... oh, Mike... grow a pair and return to us.
Christian rock is just rock with Christian-centered lyrics. Christian bands are bands that use their music to share there beliefs. Although, that doesn't mean they automatically suck.
Demon Hunter, Theocracy, Red, Skillet, Disciple, August Burns Red, are just a few that have many good songs and are Christian rock bands. Listen to Demon Hunter's Collapsing or August Burns Red's White Washed and tell me that they sound real Christian.
For someone to say Christian metal/rock isn't real metal/rock is just stupid. Christian rock/metal is the same as any other rock/metal band except the LYRICS. Rock is about rebellion. Christians are rebelling against the world of sin in which we all live in. :P
On a relative note, the songs sound the same musically but it's not like that even matters. That's like me saying *****'s double bass sounds like *****'s double bass. amirite?
isnt all music just stealing from your influences and putting your own spin on it anyway? If the songs not a blatant copy, then i dont understand why there has to be a uproar because the songs sound similar. lots of songs sound alike, big deal.
U2 are regarded as the biggest christian rock band in the world, without tying themselves to that label, google it.
Don't get me wrong, U2 can go **** themselves but like it or not they've sold tons. yeah by and large christian rock bands suck ass, I cannot think one I listen to at all..I mean I must listen to christians who make music but people who use it as a gimmick.
on topic, haven't dream theater stolen riffs before? something you notice when you listen to enough Pink Floyd and ELP..but here's some examples
Micheal Jackson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STXFFYcuhuw
Dream Theater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_XhnHbdqWA
Corrosion Of Conformity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sYae25hnKI
Dream Theater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muiNqF_XJJc
Peter Gabriel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fF8wU4Nl9Y
Dream Theater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FVp2rw1BFQ
Ho w is having an idea for songwriting topics a gimmick? You might as well say Coheed and Cambria uses the Amory Wars as a gimmick for their music, or any other concept band.
cowshed and what the now? I don't listen to that band. Writing lyrics based on something isn't a gimmick, it's when you live it to the point it becomes what personifys you it's a gimmick.
That's not to say a gimmick is a bad thing however, for example, lost of bands drink, write songs about drinking. is there gimmick drinking? no, it's just something they know, part of life. Now, a band like Tankard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankard_(band)
has drinking as their gimmick, you see? I love Tankard. while I can't say there's nothing wrong with being christian, if you are and it's what your into then write the lyrics but when you bring crosses everywhere and pray, and thank jesus ect and basicly stand there saying HEY. WORLD. LOOK AT MEEEEE THIS IS WHAT IIII DO. it's a goddamned gimmick.
I have yet to hear one christian rock band that does not suck ass.
Honestly, if I had heard the song by Red without the "similarities" being pointed out to me, I would have not even compared the two songs. It's the same scale, and it has a similar progression, but so do millions of other songs.
I think the similarities between Home and a Tool song are greater (I forgot the name though). It's practically the same bass line.
U2 are regarded as the biggest christian rock band in the world, without tying themselves to that label, google it.
Don't get me wrong, U2 can go **** themselves but like it or not they've sold tons. yeah by and large christian rock bands suck ass, I cannot think one I listen to at all..I mean I must listen to christians who make music but people who use it as a gimmick.
on topic, haven't dream theater stolen riffs before? something you notice when you listen to enough Pink Floyd and ELP..but here's some examples
Micheal Jackson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STXFFYcuhuw
Dream Theater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_XhnHbdqWA
Corrosion Of Conformity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sYae25hnKI
Dream Theater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muiNqF_XJJc
Peter Gabriel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fF8wU4Nl9Y
Dream Theater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FVp2rw1BFQ
Ho w is having an idea for songwriting topics a gimmick? You might as well say Coheed and Cambria uses the Amory Wars as a gimmick for their music, or any other concept band.
cowshed and what the now? I don't listen to that band. Writing lyrics based on something isn't a gimmick, it's when you live it to the point it becomes what personifys you it's a gimmick.
That's not to say a gimmick is a bad thing however, for example, lost of bands drink, write songs about drinking. is there gimmick drinking? no, it's just something they know, part of life. Now, a band like Tankard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankard_(band)
has drinking as their gimmick, you see? I love Tankard. while I can't say there's nothing wrong with being christian, if you are and it's what your into then write the lyrics but when you bring crosses everywhere and pray, and thank jesus ect and basicly stand there saying HEY. WORLD. LOOK AT MEEEEE THIS IS WHAT IIII DO. it's a goddamned gimmick.
I have yet to hear one christian rock band that does not suck ass.
I know you were trying to be clever and witty, but I don't see how you managed to misspell "Coheed" when it was write in from of you to see.
Lol. So many christian downvoters. I like how people defending it are citing August Burns Red, As I Lay Dying, and other shitty metalcore bands. UG must be populated by 12 year olds nowadays.
Metal fans suddenly realize their music all sounds the same.
Yeah, because blues doesn't sound the same at all since it's only 5 notes and the same stock licks over and over, jazz doesn't sound like a bunch of hipsters playing whatever the hell they want whether it's in the same key or not, etc.
Everyone immediately jumped down Coldplay's throats for allegedly ripping off Satriani, but now that it's Dream Theater vs. Red everyone suddenly wants to give the benefit of the doubt. Better yet, saying things like "It's sort of similar, I guess, but I wouldn't consider it a copy."
Suddenly it's a different story when it's an artist that you like, and gets held up by a ton of people as mind-blowing shit handed down from god to man.
to be honest...i don't think anyone copied anyone. They both sound like generic riffs to me
Your username is relevant to this article. Holy shit, two bands with generic beats, vocals, and distorted rock riffs that kind of sound similar, SUMMON THE JUDGE!
The riffs sound similar, but the Red songs vocals and everything else sounds totally different. I think it's just a coincidence. And Mike, I respect you as a musician, but PLEASE don't try to start something. I don't want to see either bands get into some sort of legal argument, even though I've never even heard of Red before.
Personally, I think that the Red song sounds like a terrible attempt at writing a Chevelle song.
The Red and DT songs are similar, but not enough for anyone with a life to notice - without it being pointed out. It's not the same riff, at any point, thus not plagiarism. I dislike both bands, but they both have bits here and there I like. Petrucci can tear it up, obviously. The little solo bit in the DT song is nice.
How are they similar? The Four Horsemen and The Mechanix are similar songs. These are not.
The Four Horsemen and Mechanic are the same song with different lyrics and passages. The music to both, aside from the bridge in The Four Horsemen, was written by Dave Mustaine.
Who ever accused Dream Theater of this is a retard. Sure they might be similar but I don't think they would go out of their way to copy another band. They have too much talent to do that.
i think the red riff sounds elite by deftones. the dream theatre song has the same feel, but so does every other rock song now a days. it has the standard song structure of todays rock. its just slightly different from the verse/chours/verse of the grudge days. theres more accents...and generic industrial drum loops.
heavy riff, pause, accents, bass riff and drums with vocals, accents, heavy riff, repeat first 6 steps,(sometimes a really bland solo) breakdown into bridge, pause, accents, heavy riff, pause, accents, end.
except dream theatre who spices it up with solos, crazy breakdowns and numerous key and tempo changes. prog with modern melodies. sometimes its awesome, sometimes its not. sometimes it sounds like a over produced christian band. sh*t happens.
There is such a thing as influence. Not everything is plagiarism. Besides, while the intro guitar riffs might sound similar, I don't see where the basis for the accusation comes from. A lot of songs sound similar.
If this was the other way around most of you would be screaming bloody murder... this dissapoints me to think a good band like red could write a song boring enough for dt to copy
When I got the new DT album and heard the Build Me Up, Break Me Down track I noticed right away it sounded similar to Red's track but just because it sounds similar doesnt mean that DT ripped off Red's music. This is stretching it but maybe there could have been an influence but if thats the case then Red should be honored to have influenced such a talented group of musicians.
I don't think DT are as original as they think they are; they can be VERY cliche, which is kinda what made me get past them after I stopped marveling over their technical ability.
I think they need a great songwriter like Steven Wilson to come in and edit all of their songs so that they're not so overdone; all they're missing is good songwriting (and a better singer).
Sorry, but Porcupine Tree is just as hit and miss as Dream Theater. If it weren't for Gavin Harrison's drumming, a lot of their music would be little better than the drop tuned garbage that comes on the average modern rock radio station.
Rappers get away with this all the time. How come no one cares when they do it?
...They do sound somewhat alike I guess. I dont see why it matters, both songs are different as a whole.
The main riff sounds like a dead lift to me, but the Dream Theater tune just sounds so much better and far less generic. The trial could be a matter of venue. If they hold the trial on the west coast (in L.A., for example) with older jurors (and that is who tends to end up on juries, btw) Red will lose because to old farts like me the DT tune just sounds a lot more listenable and melodic. Not saying that is the right decision, but people's prejudices do play a big role in how they decide cases, no matter what evidence is presented in court. A lot of the jurors are just going to mentally check out during the discussions of the music theory end of the dispute anyway because most jurors are dumber than a box of rocks.
If the venue is in holy roller land, though, DT could lose.
If it's before a judge, though, who knows? Most of them are middle aged or older, so maybe DT has an edge? I guess we'll just have and see.
As far as Christian rock goes, almost all of it blows. I tried to get into it back in the day with bands like Daniel Amos, Savior, etc and it just didn't do it for me. The first Christian rock band I liked was Stryper and I can't think of any others that I've liked since. August Burns Red? Creed? Uh, no thanks.
When I listen to Christian music, I tend to gravitate to bluegrass gospel or black gospel. Btw, I'm an atheist and I still listen to that stuff. Good music is good music (according to my personal taste, of course).
As for the musical ability of Christian rockers, I think it's about the same as your average rock musician. However, I just think that compositionally those bands tend to be quite weak. It's perhaps an indication now that when many bands are washed up they go Christian. Back in the day, that moved used to be to country. Make of that what you will. That move almost never works out anyway and it usually didn't when the default was to to C&W, either.
Has anyone considered the fact that DT was writing "A Dramatic Turn of Events" before the RED album was released? Sure, yea, the riffs sound similar. But in no way is that blatant plagiarism. It's incredibly obvious that MP is probably a little bitter at his former bandmates for not allowing him back into the band after his master plan of becoming a full-time member of A7X fell through.
Personally, I think it's a little sad that nobody has even thought about the fact that DT was writing this album starting Fall 2010, and the RED album came out February-March 2011. No-brainer.
Not only did they copy that song, they even used a name of one of their songs and a lyrics from it. 15 (you'll be the death of me). Maybe I'm just looking too much into it since it is about Red but it kinda sounded obvious it was a rip off from the whole band and not just the one song.
they are quite similar but people have to remember it is quite easy to write a riff which you don't know is already one, i was writing a song and then i heard disturbed's 'remember' and they were exactly the same, every musician has done it at least once
the first bit of phrase in the chorus is the exact same as that american idol famed guy.. "what do you want from me", I think it's called... where he sings somthing like "don't wanna give in".... obviously not plagiarism from dt's part..... retarded people.....
Sounds similar. Not the same. I hold no particular love for Dream Theater other than good guitar music once in a while, and I can still tell this is a little over exaggerated. They just sound similar in style.
maybe dream theater was influenced by that song but the fact is that maybe the orchestration is kinda similar but its not the same riffs. mike portnoy is just jealous so he commets on everything that would make the band to be seen in a "bad light"
The track from red was realesed in april 2011 and Dream Theater finished the writing of songs in january 2011... how can Dream Theater steal a song that's not realesed?? i think it just the same style but the riffs and lyrics are totaly differant... Sorry for the bad english
I love how like 50% of the comments turned into a christianity shit storm.
It's music, who cares how they market it. Thousands of bands use some gimmick to make sales, musicians need money to fund instruments and to pay the bills. Some use religion, others commercials, others whatever else they can use. Religion has been used as a marketing tool for thousands of years since ancient roman times, nothing new, is it works so is it surprising its still used??
If people buy their records they are technically "good" to someone. As I Lay Dying, Underoath, Newboys, mewithoutyou, are all successful rock bands that associate themselves with a christian label. Chevelle started out with a christian label but moved away from it and are incredibly successful.
Riff is similar, agreed. What about the rest of the song? If this is considered a cover I'm going to be laughing forever. I doubt it was an actual steal as well, Dream Theatre take their roles seriously.
GibsonMan321 wrote:
Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
Relient K
Switchfoot
Anberlin
As I Lay Dying
Deas Vail
Farewell Flight
House Of Heroes
mewithoutyou
Underoath
Newsboys
Red (isn't actually that bad listen to their first album it's way better than this)
I can keep going. I don't like that much christian music but there are plenty of fine bands that are christian.
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
Are you serious? You do realize that the only thing that makes Christian rock 'Christian' are the lyrics, and EVERY singer writes lyrics about things that are important to them, that affect their lives, and that they're invested in emotionally, whether positive or negative, right?
Saying all Christian rock bands suck because they're 'using religion as a crutch' is like saying "all metal sucks because they're not using religion as a topic,' or that 'all country sucks because they're singing about relationships and breakups and their way of life.' And I always thought the 'spirit of rock and roll' was doing whatever you wanted with your rock music? Did this change when I wasn't looking?
Mike Portnoy copied this first riff to create "This Dying Soul"
Hey that's cool I like it and it does sounds a bit like This Dying Soul. But I thought the link would be to a video of The Glass Prison because that's actually where he took that riff from. Not plagarism in this case, just theme and variation.
[quote]Don't get me wrong, U2 can go **** themselves but like it or not they've sold tons. yeah by and large christian rock bands suck ass, I cannot think one I listen to at all..I mean I must listen to christians who make music but people who use it as a gimmick. /quote] You know what. You guys really make me mad. Seriously. keep you crappy opinions to yourself!
They are not in the same timesignature and they do not share the same chordprogression so i really don't see how DT has "copied" Red. There is however a slight similarity in the sound and i wouldn't be surprised if DT were inspired by this song but going as far as saying they copied it is just absurd.
Everyone immediately jumped down Coldplay's throats for allegedly ripping off Satriani, but now that it's Dream Theater vs. Red everyone suddenly wants to give the benefit of the doubt. Better yet, saying things like "It's sort of similar, I guess, but I wouldn't consider it a copy."Suddenly it's a different story when it's an artist that you like, and gets held up by a ton of people as mind-blowing shit handed down from god to man.Way to be impartial, guys.
I timed both Youtube videos above and played them at the same time. I guarantee you Red was not ripped off, however they do sound very similar and John Petrucci did list Red's "Until We ave Faces" as #1 on his top 10 albums list.
Well, if they did in fact "steal" or "borrow" from Red. They did a poor job because Red used that formula a lot better than Dream Theater did. Not to mention the music video was quite moving, but that's beside the point.
I don't think people should really get upset if a couple of songs by two totally different artists sound similar. It just means that they're like-minded in terms of chord and song structure, or Dream Theater was simply inspired as some have said before.
Rather than let this become a flame war, I say everyone accepts the similarities and moves on instead of throwing a hissy fit.
I'm not flaming Portnoy at all, I met him and stuff, hes a nasty drummer but... I Think he's just angered that he didn't get the Grammy nomination when he was with them... So he's deciding to take a stab at them. Anyway... The guitar riffs sound sort of similar, but really no other comparisons. Plenty of bands do that same metal riff, Ex. Disturbed has those similar riffs if you listen. I don't think its plaigarism, just a common riff used by many bands.
portnoy was once my fav drummer
Now i cant stand hearing anything from him, either from hit drums OR his mouth...
U left DT (your fault) to join a band as a TEMP-DRUMMER. Then u go crawling back expecting DT to fire their new drummer because u "made a mistake"? and now here u are poking fun at their new tracks without you, ohh its a sad point in this mans life. He goes out and attacks their opening track, then turns around in complete denial and says hes perfectly happy in his life and career.. no ur not. u regret it, and have no better way of dealing with that problem of yours than by taking ur frustration out on the people that frankly, probably just wanted to be done with ur bullshit
Both are just the same as any "metal" band from nowadays. I just can't stand no more this all look-alike songs...Fast riffs, slow harmony soft-voice chorus, back to riff and all again and again...
its all the same same boring music...boring vocals...just boring modern crap really. DT has gone way over the edge with their new album...its not the best DT which once was...it just doesn't hold up
The songs aren't even that similar. But since everyone's voicing their opinions on the songs: the DT song is better but i love Red's music video. Pretty sick.
I see a little of the influence, but not plagarism by a long shot.
The main thing I can agree on is both songs are not very good at all.So who really cares if someone says a crappy song sounds like another crappy song, I would never listen to either.
The problem with Christian rock musicians is that they simply don't 'get it', for lack of a better word. You can write songs about God or religion or whatever (like Clapton's 'Presence of the Lord' which is badass) but when you make God the main motive behind your image and music, it detracts from the overall quality.
so fans think dream theater copied dream theater's style without dream theater's permission so they could make money off of dream theater songs on On the Backs of Angels. Makes perfect sense. By the way feed the machine sounds almost nothing like build me up break me down.
they sound a bit similar because the first few notes in both riffs have the same intervals between each other.
i don't think its enough to call it plagiarism. after all, theres so much music out there, how are you not going to hear similarities between some songs...
I think that this is retarded. The songs sound entirely distinct from one another. I won't argue that there indeed is present some similarities in the beginning, and the phrasing in the verse and chorus are much alike, but it isn't plagiarism!!! If every musician had to be fearful that something they come up with might have similar notes, intervals or phrasing to some other song or composition, there would be no freedom in the music!!!
I think portnoy's plan was too leave DT, have them breakdown and have them beg him to come back, this however backfired and he's butthurt, deal with it portnoy.
The riffs are practically the same. It's influence, which Petrucci stated. Let's leave it at that. Red's music is much more moving anyway.
On a side note, in reference to a comment as Red using the Christian tag as a gimmick, I'd say that they use it less than most Christian bands. They rarely mention. In 3 shows, only once has the bassist (Randy Armstrong) referred to their "lord and savior, Jesus Christ." Not to mention that their lyrics aren't blatantly Christian, 100% of the time. Red are a legitimate Christian band, in my opinion.
The riffs are practically the same. It's influence, which Petrucci stated. Let's leave it at that. Red's music is much more moving anyway.
On a side note, in reference to a comment that claimed Red uses the Christian tag as a gimmick, I'd say that they use it less than most Christian bands. They rarely mention it. In the 3 shows I've been to where they performed, only once has the bassist (Randy Armstrong) referred to their "lord and savior, Jesus Christ." Not to mention that their lyrics aren't blatantly Christian, 100% of the time. Red are a legitimate Christian band, in my opinion.***
The similarities are there and, by the way, I've always seen a lot of similarities between Muse's Stockholm Syndrome and Dream Theater's Never Enough.....
I feel that there are a few compositional similarities, but not enough of a direct overlap to be considered copying. To me, the Red song sounds like any other song of band from that same type of genre, they all make me think of Three Days Grace.
Build Me Up, Break Me Down just sounds like more of Dream Theater to me. If people are going to scream copy at things that only sound remotely similar, why not see if you can get Vinnie Paul to sue the guys in Helmet just because the main riff in "Unsung" sounds ever so vaguely reminiscent of the riff in "Rise" by Pantera?
GibsonMan321 wrote:
Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
Relient K
Switchfoot
Anberlin
As I Lay Dying
Deas Vail
Farewell Flight
House Of Heroes
mewithoutyou
Underoath
Newsboys
Red (isn't actually that bad listen to their first album it's way better than this)
I can keep going. I don't like that much christian music but there are plenty of fine bands that are christian. [/quote]
THANK YOU. A lot of people instantly assume that because it's "Christian" it's going to be preachy, "Love Jesus or you're going to Hell" kind of music, and that it's going to suck. FUCK NO, MAN. Christian music has evolved way past that - it's just as legitimate as anything else out there. It encompasses every genre, from folk and country to the heaviest of metal.
I think it's amazing that bands aren't afraid to admit their love for something they feel so strongly for in their music, and doing it however they want to. Music's meant for people to express themselves - have we forgotten about that? You don't like it, don't listen to it. Plain and simple. As for me, I'll fly the Christian flag high and proudly admit that I am one. You close your mind to the music, though, and you're missing out on some really unique talent.
(Oh yeah, and on the topic, they sound a little alike. However, I love both bands, and doing this "they ripped them off" bullshit is pointless - everyone's been ripping everyone off since there's been more than one musician in the world.)
On accident or on purpose, something is going to sound like something else sooner or later. Besides, where would Quentin Tarantino be if he didn't borrow a thing or two every now and then?
Just the main riff in the opening sounds similar. But no it is not the same. Then again theres only so much you can do with song riffs things are going to sound the same sooner or later. It don't really matter if it does.
being a big dt fan, this may be biased, but when you talk about the way a rock song is set up, theirs not that many possibilities. Thats like someone complaining the new megadeth album sounds too much like metallica or something even more easy like white chapel and black dahlia. Its all the same if you think about the way they make a song. so what im trying to say is grow up Red, you suck compared to Dream Theater.
I admit they sound similar. Then on the whole MP-being-bitter-and-hating-DT-thing, he has every right. He was a founding member and his father even helped to name the band, so i say he has every right to be angry and bitter towards them. What they did to him was wrong. What was a couple of months of not doing anything. With that time off they could've done better than this.
That red song was pretty crappy, boring never changes meh garbage id say. DT songs wasn't great either but at least it did more musically...id say coincidence but both shitty songs. i love DT they can do way better.
They need to stop listening to crap...so there albums will sound better musically
Anyone who thinks the Coldplay-Satriani case IS plagiarism, but thinks that Dream Theatre-Red ISN'T plagiarism, I think you need to learn the importance of objectivity in life.
Just because you like an artist, it doesn't make them perfect. People respect you more when you actually just accept that and carry on, instead of blindly defending them to eternity.
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
Seventh Day Slumber, Casting Crowns, POD, As I Lay Dying.. I could go on. Shut yourself up and go back to your hole.
I'd add Demon Hunter in there as well. Not to mention Pillar, Kutless, 12 Stones, Blindside, Disciple (early stuff specifically), Neal Morse, Project 86, Thousand Foot Krutch, and that's just off the top of my head.
Whoever originally posted that "Christian" bands can't be good is an complete and TOTAL idiot. That is the most ridiculous generalization I've ever heard in my life. Clearly a total poser who's either like 12, or stuck in the 80s thinking you have to give off affected "Satanic" imagery to be "cool" or "metal"... Just ignorant. Music is music and ideology or themes, etc in the lyrics are what makes music speak to those who care about that particular message. I love plenty of songs that I don't really have an interest in the words.
Oh, and you want a good "Christian" band? You won't find a heavier, more bad-ass band: THY WILL BE DONE. Give them a listen and tell me they suck. I dare you.
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
Seventh Day Slumber, Casting Crowns, POD, As I Lay Dying.. I could go on. Shut yourself up and go back to your hole.
I'd add Demon Hunter in there as well. Not to mention Pillar, Kutless, 12 Stones, Blindside, Disciple (early stuff specifically), Neal Morse, Project 86, Thousand Foot Krutch, and that's just off the top of my head.
Whoever originally posted that "Christian" bands can't be good is an complete and TOTAL idiot. That is the most ridiculous generalization I've ever heard in my life. Clearly a total poser who's either like 12, or stuck in the 80s thinking you have to give off affected "Satanic" imagery to be "cool" or "metal"... Just ignorant. Music is music and ideology or themes, etc in the lyrics are what makes music speak to those who care about that particular message. I love plenty of songs that I don't really have an interest in the words.
Oh, and you want a good "Christian" band? You won't find a heavier, more bad-ass band: THY WILL BE DONE. Give them a listen and tell me they suck. I dare you.
i agree. Thy Will Be Done is amazing. heavy band with great guitars
you know you can always tell how the world change...so hmm gee did dream theater take this riff? and maybe change it just a little?? well did black sabbath take eric claptons riff for cocain and change it a bit to make one of thier greatest songs? N.I.B.? you know musicians guitarists especially have been stealing and using eachothers riffs and licks for years and years...there are acdc songs that sound like other musicians from before thier time there are led zeppelin songs that sound the same as other earlier bands songs....Heck Ted Nuggent did a radio interview talking about how 3 of his greatest songs including Cat Cratch Fever and Stranglehold were riffs that he got from another musician and he just changed them up...and for the people claiming dream theater stole thier own music to get a CD out faster well geeee look at acdc alone they not had 13 albums of songs that sounded the same but they would literally make a new album that still had have the songs from the last album on it...no dis on acdc that is my all time favorite band but in this day and age you more and more about people trying to get money over stupid stuff when 20 -30 yrs ago musicians didnt care because they cared about music not money and lawsuits....so does it sound familiar but maybe changed yeah it does but no different for the main riff in Black Sabbath N.I.B. and Eric Clapton Cocain checkem out if you done believe me and then tell me how people steal songs...in my eyes if you play guitar and even other musicians you just as guilty because half of the chord progressions and lead solos and guitar lick you play someone else waaayyyyy before your time came up with them...so why is it sooo bad for Dream Theater to do the same thing why dont you guys all try to write 10-30 min songs for almost 30-yrs then come tell me if u may need help for new ideas....my opinion back off RED should be pumped to know that dream thearter used thier music as influence to a new song..if thats the case of course because no one knows whats truth here only dream theater does but i think RED should not persue this seeing how they are a christian band it may look bad for them if they attempt to sue dream theater....
oh and if you think im lying about acdc taking riffs? ACDCs song Ride On has the same exact feel rythym and alot of same chords of a BB King song im sorry i dont know the name but someone could post it or u can go find it on you tube its all right there we are musicians we use other musicians to influence us and give us fresh new ideas
the first bit of phrase in the chorus is the exact same as that american idol famed guy.. "what do you want from me", I think it's called... where he sings somthing like "don't wanna give in".... obviously not plagiarism from dt's part..... retarded people.....
hmm just to clarify... the melody from the Red song is like the Adam Lambert one... not build me up, break me down.... Dream Theater definetly didn't plagiarise anything.... And guys babling about coldplay-satriani.... To paraphrase Chris Martin: "Melody is the most important thing about the music I make"... He stole the most important thing of his top hit from a Satriani song. Undeniable. Seriously have you considered analysing the music just a little? Try and write the melody on a sheet... IT IS THE SAME!!!!! Please remove the filter and blocks unabling you to see this.....
So much for Portnoy not listening to the new stuff and just wanting to focus on his own career... Deliberate attempt to stir the pot, again, by him. The way DT members have consistently said the same thing about the 'break-up', while Portnoy changes his side of the story every few months, I guess he's getting desperate - kinda like the 40 yr old who leaves his wife only to find out it was only a fling.
Check out every song Mike Portnoy's released this year... WOW, the arrangement and orchestration sounds awfully mediocre! Surely it must be an intentional 'progression' for the fans... It couldn't possibly be blatant lack of songwriting skill, now could it... ?
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
Seventh Day Slumber, Casting Crowns, POD, As I Lay Dying.. I could go on. Shut yourself up and go back to your hole.
I'd add Demon Hunter in there as well. Not to mention Pillar, Kutless, 12 Stones, Blindside, Disciple (early stuff specifically), Neal Morse, Project 86, Thousand Foot Krutch, and that's just off the top of my head.
Whoever originally posted that "Christian" bands can't be good is an complete and TOTAL idiot. That is the most ridiculous generalization I've ever heard in my life. Clearly a total poser who's either like 12, or stuck in the 80s thinking you have to give off affected "Satanic" imagery to be "cool" or "metal"... Just ignorant. Music is music and ideology or themes, etc in the lyrics are what makes music speak to those who care about that particular message. I love plenty of songs that I don't really have an interest in the words.
Oh, and you want a good "Christian" band? You won't find a heavier, more bad-ass band: THY WILL BE DONE. Give them a listen and tell me they suck. I dare you.
What's with the hate christians are getting here? You're relying on outdated stereotypes to make your arguments. There's a difference between christian bands and bands of christians. I personally like Showbread and they have like three vaguely religious songs and even those have quite a lot of guts, gore and overall weirdness.
Also, why have we forgotten that 'The Crucified' formed the grounds for most thrash metal music.
And where the hell is Underoath guys? Find me a better band than them haters.
i personally don't understand why people make a fuss about Dream Theater anyways. Sure they are technically advanced musicians, but what is their purpose as a band? The majority of their songs are self indulgent, run on prog "epics". Portnoy needs to chill out for a bit and take a vacation. Also, Petrucci needs to come down to earth and realize he is not god. These men succeed in making lifeless progressive rock which unfortunately should not be anyone's goal. Dream Theater needs to get some soul.
that little riff is so basic that I actually can believe an accident like this could happen
and btw christian rock bands are scams meant to take advantage of christians. Rock music is about sin there is no such thing as a christian rocker
that little riff is so basic that I actually can believe an accident like this could happen
and btw christian rock bands are scams meant to take advantage of christians. Rock music is about sin there is no such thing as a christian rocker
I'm sorry you feel that way, the style 'rock' is not about sin, it's just a sound. The sin comes from those who play/write the music. Psalm 100:1 - Make a joyful NOISE unto the Lord. God doesn't care if you scream or talk in a docile tone, so long as it glorifies HIM and spreads HIS love and HIS faithfulness.
What really bothers me is that Portnoy was band members with these guys for 25 years. He knows they don't plagiarize music, and suddenly withouth the drummer they need to plagiarize to create guitar riffs? Considering that petrucci is one of the best guitar riffers of all time (http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_guitarriff.html -- look at the right side)
I don't think he needs to plagiarize some shitty christian rock band to create a riff. Think about it, take any of their long songs, for example Octavarium. The song has like 20 different guitar riffs taht could potentially make 20 different songs, rather than one. Their ****ing talented, stop looking for ways to bash on them. I loved what Mike did for DT, but he's gotta move on and leave it behind him; he's made his choice...
When I read the headline, my jaw dropped considering that RED is my favorite band and, to my knowledge, Dream Theater is never known to steal music from bands. To be honest, I don't care about anyone else's opinions on Christian metal, "crappy-core", RED, or Dream Theater (though I still love both bands' music).
I've listened to both songs and it's pretty obvious that Dream Theater's song is a very blatant rip-off (though not a complete copy, with a Petrucci solo) of "Feed the Machine" in style, arrangement, dynamics, and (at times) vocal delivery.
Short and simple: at the time they released it, Dream Theater's song is most likely a rip-off of Red's song. But it's only one song, so put down the pitchforks.
Everyone immediately jumped down Coldplay's throats for allegedly ripping off Satriani, but now that it's Dream Theater vs. Red everyone suddenly wants to give the benefit of the doubt. Better yet, saying things like "It's sort of similar, I guess, but I wouldn't consider it a copy."Suddenly it's a different story when it's an artist that you like, and gets held up by a ton of people as mind-blowing shit handed down from god to man.Way to be impartial, guys.
Are they similar? Yes, but a lot of song writers either consciously or subconciously base songs on other songs they have heard. John Lennon himself even admitted this. So similar? Yes. Plagiarism? Not at all. Should Coldplay be sued and possibly jailed? Yes, because music that terrible is a crime.
Finally at least DT's fans can finally take it down a notch. I mean don't get me started on how emotionless that god damn band is when it comes to creating music even more when it comes to anything else. Seriously I don't care what DT comes out with it will never ever be anything but trash IMO. How about we hear a song that isn't all about being technically superior in playing and about being full of emotion and has some technical aspects. I mean seriously DT fans if they could would suck John's dick all day and claim hes the best thing to walk this earth. When in reality he will never ever be considered anything close to Randy Rhoads or Dimebag who IMO both are better guitarists. I mean not to mention the only person I respected in DT was Mike and hes gone so IDGAF about this terrible ass band anymore. Split up and create good music not "technical" music.
Red and Breaking Benjamin rip eachother off a lot as well. I know that BB has been around longer but listen to the chorus of BB's Without You and RED's Already Over. Almost exaclty the same and RED's song is MUCH older.
And this ongoing Christian Rock debate is funny because the label 'christian rock' is ridiculous. Rock is rock no matter what you sing about, the musics all the same. HOWEVER, I agree that there are fewer talented musicians who label themselves as that. Most of the 'genre' is generic melodic power-chord filled songs attempting to enter mainstream. The reason for this, I believe, is that people are trying harder to make themselves known as Christians rather than focusing on putting work and creativity into their music. I respect them for representing what they believe, but if you can't provide original, thoughtful music to back up your lyrics, then go into ministry or writing. Music is an art, not just a way to preach.
The people who use August Burns Red as an argument for good Christian rock are confused because they're metalcore, not rock. Thrice is one of the best christian rock bands out there, although they're not marketed like that. Chevelle used to be marketed as one and it's too bad they're not anymore because they're one of the best, original rock bands out there (and don't even bring up that they sound too much like Tool). Anberlin's great and there's no one who sounds quite like them for them to be unoriginal. Blindside's good and they're talented Christian's. Skillet's Comatose album was amazing but I won't mention they're newest album. Brian 'Head' Welch is pretty badass for the Christian market and he's bold in his beliefs. So yah, there are PLENTY of 'Christian' rock bands that don't suck.
And one more thing: the guy who's talking about gimmicks. There's a difference between gimmicks and identity. Christianity is a marketing way for Christians to find music easier. That's it. Some bands abuse it, sure. But gimmicks are all the gay Hot Topic bands like Escape the Fate, Asking Alexandra, Falling In Reverse, and all the crap that sells their music by wearing makeup and advertising every stupid fad that comes into existance.
...and those are my blurbs
well considering that Dream Theater in its entirety are Berklee grads, I seriously doubt that they would have to steal another bands riff. and plus there are so many rock/metal songs out there, there is bound to be some similarities between a few riffs. give Dream Theater a break.
Being a Berklee grad in no way signifies your creative abilities. Music school is about technical abilities and learning theory, no one can teach creativity. Most of the grads become session musicians, performance musicians, or teachers, not songwriters.
The songs are stylistically similar, but I don't think it's plagiarism. I don't care for either band so I'm not motivated to look into it further.
In response to people comparing this to the Coldplay v Satriani incident, I being someone who thinks DT is a terrible band (and for that matter doesn't care for any of the 4 artists in questions)am reasonably unbiased. That being said this is nowhere near as bad as the Coldplay rip off. Coldplay stole the chord progression, rhythm, and melody. It was extremely blatant.
I don't know and don't care enough to investigate, but I don't think these songs are that similar on paper. I don't think you can copyright your "sound" or style of arrangement. Copyright applies to things like melody and in a brief listen I don't think these songs would be similar enough on staff for DT's to be considered plagiarism. If that's not the case, someone should do an analysis of it in a youtube video like whats available for Coldplay v Satriani.
Every band has songs similar to other bands. take AC/DC for example Angus always plays around with the same chords, and no one accuses them of ripping themselves off. And where do you think musicians get some of their inspiration? With their head up their ass? No by exploring other music
being a big dt fan, this may be biased, but when you talk about the way a rock song is set up, theirs not that many possibilities. Thats like someone complaining the new megadeth album sounds too much like metallica or something even more easy like white chapel and black dahlia. Its all the same if you think about the way they make a song. so what im trying to say is grow up Red, you suck compared to Dream Theater.
LOL. I know I'm not the only one who'd take Red EVERY TIME over DT. DT's good and all, but they're the kind of band I need to be in the right mood to listen to. I can listen to Red any time. It's always good.
lol they do sound similar but with all the millions of songs out there some are bound to sound alike. who cares? iv been saying it for a few years now that dream theater is so awesome they rip off music from themselves. i mean 3 or 4 times now they have used that same "i can feel my body breaking" bit and accompanying riff in different songs on different cds and no one every complained about that before. but always suspected it had to do with a more thematic element then stealing their own music. but its still funny anyways.
THIS IS NOTHING GUYS. Check out this DT similarity I stumbled across a couple weeks ago.
Try comparing the beginning of Dream Theater's "Count of Tuscany" with Scar Symmetry's song "Ghost Prototype II - Deus Ex Machina"
If you sit through the intro's on both of these songs you'll notice more similarities than this ug guitar headline article. I'm sure some of you DT fans are going to love this.
Scar Symmetry's album which that song came out on is earlier than the Dream Theater album Black Clouds and Silver Linings.
Lol next article will probably be about Mike portnoy replying to each and every comment on that forum to defend himself, as if it is relevant music news that is worthy of being on UG haha
I'm just super glad RED is getting more attention, such a superb band fully of extremely talented musicians.
It's really annoying seeing people bash on "Christian music", I mean come on we can all think of a couple crappy ones but these ignorant people need to realize that music is just a tool to voice an opinion...for example, if Foster the People can make an upbeat song about teenage violence (great song btw) than obviously there can be heavy music with a positive message. I love a variety of music, everything from worship music to secular metal and beyond, I just don't let ignorance and prejudices get in the way of my enjoying it.
well considering that Dream Theater in its entirety are Berklee grads, I seriously doubt that they would have to steal another bands riff. and plus there are so many rock/metal songs out there, there is bound to be some similarities between a few riffs. give Dream Theater a break.
Why did they need college degrees to sound so mediocre and generic?
Being a Berklee grad in no way signifies your creative abilities. Music school is about technical abilities and learning theory, no one can teach creativity. Most of the grads become session musicians, performance musicians, or teachers, not songwriters.
The songs are stylistically similar, but I don't think it's plagiarism. I don't care for either band so I'm not motivated to look into it further.
ORLY? Did you do to BErklee and ran a poll on all the graduates?
Ok first of all just because a band has a sound does not mean it is thiers.Now maybe dream theater liked the sound.And if red or red's fans wants to cry about it don't listen to it.SO that is what i think.Also don't think i'm bagging on Red cause i aint,but you have to realize they are both hard rock weather or not Red is Christian.
ORLY? Did you do to BErklee and ran a poll on all the graduates?
That's the way it is with every school. Take a look at the rate of successful musicians compared to the amount of aspiring ones. The more reliable jobs come as performers or teachers. Not everyone can write smash-hits or amazing orchestral scores whenever they feel like it.
I have listened to both of these. My thought is that both start out with a fairly common 'metal riff'. I have heard similar riffs opening up a lot of different tunes. This is just my opinion, but I found both rather 'formulatic'.
I guess any G-player that plays open E semiquavers etc is ripping off Metallica or that Metallica copy themselves on every album up until they forgot how to play metal (ooops that'll start a comment war hahaha). If musicians can't honour their influences what's the world coming to? Silence perhaps? If I play A-harmonic minor or E Phrygian I guess I'm ripping off Vai,Satch,Malmsteen etc and if I start tapping I'm ripping off Van Halen. All you armchair critics should stop analysing and start playing/enjoying music more. Unless its like Cold Play vs Satch who cares? Really? Are you G-players or just geeks? PS the basic dictionary meaning of 'opinion' is 'a belief not based on any truth or fact'. So some comments here are opinions and some are not! Oh and people posting makingmoney ads can go eat a bag full of D*cks.
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
August Burns Red. They rock and they're Christian.
August Burns Red, As I Dying, The Devil Wears Prada, Underoath, Demon Hunter, Disciple
who the hell cares? I bet if you went through every single peice of music that's ever been written, things are gonna start sounding similar. And as for Mike Portnoy's comment....what a dick. Oh and finally, how the hell can a band "copy" themselves? seriously it seems like after MP left and all this talk of the finding of a new drummer etc, people have just been bitching about DT lately, well I still think they kick ass.
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
August Burns Red. They rock and they're Christian.
August Burns Red, As I Dying, The Devil Wears Prada, Underoath, Demon Hunter, Disciple
Being a christian in a rock band, is not the same as a christian rock band? I'm an atheist, does that mean every band I make will be "atheist rock" or "atheist metal:?
mr-ibanez wrote on 12/19/2011 - 09:28 am / quote |
Telemonster4 wrote:
IronSamurai10 wrote:
GibsonMan321 wrote:
judo_john wrote:
GrungeHippie26 wrote:
metallica144 wrote:
also, what's the point of adding ''christian'' in the title?
Because its not real rock music.
Please do explain.....
Because using religion as a crutch for your songwriting is not in the spirit of rock'n'roll. As is pandering to a specific audience because of religion, rather than just people who like rock. They're almost always mediocre bands and shoddy musicians. Show me one christian rock band that doesn't suck.
August Burns Red. They rock and they're Christian.
August Burns Red, As I Dying, The Devil Wears Prada, Underoath, Demon Hunter, Disciple
Being a christian in a rock band, is not the same as a christian rock band? I'm an atheist, does that mean every band I make will be "atheist rock" or "atheist metal:?
-----
I'm just saying that christians shouldn't always have to sing christian stuff. There aren't many necessities in rock music lyrically.
It is completley possible to write a riff that sounds similar to another bands. But the whole song sounds SO similar. Just because it's "Dream Theater" doesnt mean that they cant rip people off. I lost what little interest I had in this band after Portnoy left, and now I just lost most of the respect I had for them after this.
I just saw Red this past weekend. AWESOME! One of the guests at the meet and greet asked "what do you listen to?" They mentioned a few like Nine Inch Nails etc. Then I yelled out Dream Theater. They looked straight at me and said "so you heard the story about the song comparision" I replied yes. Their response was "Actually we were quite flattered to have one of our songs be compared to Dream Theater" I don't think there will be any lawsuits guys. Red just wants to make good music like DT..Can't we all just rock along?
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Christian songs, too, so I might as well throw that in as well.
that being said, their first album was good, and they're great live, but I've no idea how a band can make the exact same album three times and evidence zero growth or new ideas...
5 (you'll be the death of me). Maybe I'm just looking too much into it since it is about Red but it kinda sounded obvious it was a rip off from the whole band and not just the one song.
Annnnd of course he does.
You have to admit they do sound pretty familiar. Now I'd love to see how this plays off.
After years of people making the same stupid Coldplay Satriani joke, are they going to say this is a rip off as well, or just say it's coincidence because it's Dream Theater (and the former was just about disliking Coldplay/liking Satriani)?
*grabs popcorn*