Wednesday Question: Band Who Failed Due to Major Lineup Change

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So last week's Wednesday Question was about bands who reached success thanks to major lineup changes, and once the voting was done, a lot of you folks wanted a discussion about the opposite thing, so here goes:

Which band failed due to a major lineup change?

The lineup change doesn't have to be the only factor that caused the flop, but certainly needs to be among the crucial ones.

THE RULES - post only one suggestion per comment after checking that your favorite wasn't already nominated (Ctrl+F and all).Multiple nominations of one act create heavy confusion, since on one hand it's unfair to the given band to take into consideration only the most upvoted nomination, but seeing that multiple nominations allow one user to give two or more votes to the same group, it's also unfair to other nominees not to discard it.

Finally, vote up the ideas you support and vote down the ones you dislike. We'll sum up your votes by Friday and bring you another traditional UG top list. Show us what you got now!

466 comments sorted by best / new / date

    AkisIsHere
    my band after i quit
    Wisthler
    Same with mine after I got Kicked out. Every person that know us didn't like the move and literally they only played 2 more live shows since I was kicked.... like 5 years ago xD
    travislausch
    True story, there isn't a single band I've left or been removed from that continued for very long after, and many of my former bandmates have pretty much stopped playing.
    smccarthy705
    Smashing Pumpkins without James.. Srry Billy
    deadbeatmax
    And don't forget the bassist and drummer left (or got fired) at one point. Then the drummer came back. The bassist is now working in a horse farm, so I heard... But Billy is actually the Smashing Pumpkins, in terms of writing songs and the voice. He just kinda lost it for me.
    Toly18
    James wrote and co-wrote a few of their songs from Gish through Mellon Collie, most notably the music for Mayonaise, arguably their best song. Not slagging Billy I mean he did do the majority of the writing but James was an important part of the Smashing Pumpkins we all love.
    deadbeatmax
    Oh yes, you're right. I forgot James Iha co-wrote and solo'ed some of the songs. But Billy was the leader of the band, so he kinda dictated the direction of the sound.
    emptyshell
    The only other person in the band who contributed significantly was Jimmy. That was the biggest loss. Even still though, I don't feel like they failed after that.
    RichieJovie
    Queen
    zalant
    Although, I have to admit that the Paul Rodgers thing worked for me. I didn't think it would, but it did.
    zack2k
    To be honest I never like The Cosmos Rocks album, Paul have his things during the live concert, but my inner demon said they hired Adam because he's gay (But I don't think that's the reason why Brian hired him).
    omar.cportilla
    I'm not sure if this counts... to be fair, they didn't release any new content with Rodgers nor Lambert. Still, we all know Queen won't be Queen without Freddie.
    Oasis2014
    Except the fact they sold out like every show with Adam Lambert? How are you defining the word "failed"?
    slapsymcdougal
    I'd be going with "Queen ceased to exist as a creative entity". I mean, you can make a brain-dead guy's heart beat with the right equipment, but they're still as good as dead.
    davidyanity
    Gary Cherone era Van Halen.
    goremetal22
    Replacing Michael Anthony with Wolfgang in 2006 was also not the smartest move. Anthony's backing vocals are crucial to the Van Halen sound in my opinion.
    davidyanity
    Listening to "How Many Say I" even once is enough to make me want to puncture my eardrums with a screwdriver.
    SilentPutridity
    The Doors. Did anyone care about the 2 LPs they cut after Morrison died?
    Tha Funkinator
    I'm not sure most people are aware those albums even exist. I don't think any post-Morrison cuts have ever made it on any Greatest Hits compilations, though.
    k0stil
    they may have been good but they sounded like a regular band. Not like the doors
    Ole' Nessie
    Sepultura - definitely lost a lot of momentum after Max left the band at least IMO
    zalant
    Couldn't agree more! And the funny thing, for me, is that I really didn't dig Max's post-Sepultura stuff much, either. They were better together, for sure.
    Ole' Nessie
    I couldn't agree more. Soulfly just never did it for me. Cavalera conspiracy was a bit better, but the old sepultura was the best! I know I might catch shit for this but it's kind of the same thing with cannibal corpse. They were just hitting their stride on The Bleeding album, then Chris Barnes left and IMO both six feet under and cannibal with corpsegrinder just didn't do it for me after that
    Kornholic
    I know I'm in the minority, but I really think A-Lex is one of Sepultura's best albums.
    badfish_lewis
    Guns and Roses (excluding the reformation)
    peppersghost08
    As much as I do agree. I did actually like Chinese Democracy for what it was, and I did discover Buckethead because of the GN'R line up changes, who along with Slash became one of my favourite guitarists. So every cloud has a silver lining I guess?
    lVlaniac
    The only problem with Chinese Democracy was the band's name. Under any other name it would've been well received.
    diablo9333
    As a major fan of both old and new GNR, I will admit to this. I mean, even listening to the shows from 2016, Axl's voice hasn't changed that much since 2009. Yet, people somehow think that he improved it. Maybe a little bit, but it's generally the same as it has been for a while. I think a lot of it was just anger towards the new lineup rather than people actually hating Axl's voice live.
    juzzadart
    Listen to "There Was A Time" full blast and then have a re-think! (Although in a live situation you probably are correct).
    Guytarist38
    I really like chinese democracy too actually. This was a strong but hated album, just because Axl kept the name "Guns'N'Roses".
    davidtomas.lope
    Yes. That's it. If he released this album as his own thing it would have had a much better recieve from general public It's a great album, but definitely not a GNR album
    LysanderSpoon
    I think also the length of time it was being worked on contributed. It's a solid album, but having been worked on off-and-on for the better part of two decades I kinda felt like it should have been more than solid.
    kasperow0
    I love Chinese Demomcracy. It's a really strong record, but it was marketed under the wrong name. CD should've been an Axl Rose solo-record, and it might've sold much better, or at least have been received much more positively. Instead, most hardcore GNR-fans claim that Axl ruined GNR forever. It even fits GNR's style when you think of it. No two GNR-albums sound anything like each other (counting UYI1 and UYI2 as one album). Lies sounded nothing like AFD. UYI sounded nothing like Lies nor AFD. TSI Sounded nothing like UYI, Lies nor AFD. So why should CD sound anything like GNR's older albums? Besides, it was released almost 20 years after TSI... Obviously a band's style and sound changes over that kind of time...
    mobidguitar
    That doesn't make sense. Where is the fail? Pretty sure they produced one of the most expensive albums in the history of rock after the "breakup", and then followed up with a reformation of most of the original lineup. If that is a fail, then we should all stop listening to music.
    badfish_lewis
    I would argue that 99% of GNR fans would prefer the original lineup. While CD did sell well, it was to be expected given the length of time between albums and the massive fan base GNR has. They could have recorded an album of fart sounds and it would have been a Gold record. So yes, failure is a relative term but I think you can easily make the case that it applies to their 2nd gen lineup.
    richriverkaraok
    If you call a platinum selling album and sold out tours worldwide a "failure"
    Tarsplitter
    I think it's fair to call it a failure of sorts. They remained popular but not nearly as popular as they used to be and they stopped releasing new music regularly. The lineup changes certainly weren't a success.
    slapsymcdougal
    It's a relative failure. I mean, look at the very basics. The Appetite lineup released 3 albums(plus Lies, but I don't think that counts since half of it had been released as an EP earlier) in 4 years, and then no actual original material surfaced until one song on the End Of Days soundtrack in 99, and then nothing else until 2008. Oh, and since Chinese Democracy, no new material, and the reunion tour.
    jevticsava
    The new GnR music is not bad, name is the only problem. That is not Guns and Roses. That is Axl Rose's band.
    starlessband
    chinese democracy is my favorite guns n roses album but the band sucks live under that lineup
    d.floresumana
    The thing with the Chinese Democracy line-up(s) is that it lost the magic of the old, raw and dirty feeling that the old gang provided.
    mdr9inchnails
    Three Days Grace without Adam Gontier
    iamgod93
    Holy shit, is their new stuff terrible. I mean, I thought the last album with Adam was kinda bad, but jesus.
    jedisatan
    It's funny though because now you have Three Days Grace, and you have Saint Asonia that sounds exactly like Three Days Grace
    MattKingerZ
    I actually agree on this one, even though Matt is a great singer Adam just made the whole 3DG sound along with Barrys riffs..
    godking69
    Stone Temple Pilots.
    atxC3000
    RHCP after Frusciante left in 2009
    theclassicrock
    Nah, I'm With You and I'm beside You were great. And The Getaway is incredible. It leaked last night, check it out.
    rufizonfire
    I'm not big on RHCP at all but "Brendan's Death Song" off I'm With You is a gem of a song!!
    atxC3000
    I didn't like I'm With You. It just wasn't my cup of tea. As I said before, their 2 latest songs gave me hope. Thanks for the info, I'll check the album as soon as I can.
    shwilly
    Not being as good as John Frusciante is no crime. A certain degree of disappointment in the new material is understandable, but overall it seems like most fans still embrace the band I wouldn't call Josh's recruitment a failure for that reason: it's not like they fired Froosh or anything and let's be honest, you can't replace the unreplacable
    atxC3000
    I don't think that Josh is bad, but it simply isn't that level of cooperation and musical chemistry like the rest of the band had with John.
    AaronianKenrod
    John had significantly more time in the band than Josh. This new album is literally Josh's second with them, John had 5 over 17 years.
    k0stil
    they are worse but definitly not failed. They were already past their great success of mid 2000s and i dont think they would make another great album with John
    ante.zovko3193
    Thank you! I thought this was gonna get downvoted but they really sound shit to me ever since he left
    atxC3000
    I was surprised to see that nobody mentioned it before me. John added some complexity and proficiency to their songs, and after he left, RHCP didn't sound too musical for me. Their two recent songs gave me some hope, but it's just not that good as Frusciante era.
    Meganic
    It's a hard one for me. Definatelly, John was essential to RHCP, he's the magic, he's on top of my favourite guitarists and it's certainly not the same (read- worse) after he left. BUT, I wouldn't call their new albums a FAIL either.
    atxC3000
    In my opinion, I'm With You sounds non-charismatic and repetitive. But I'll check out the new album as soon as I can.
    ante.zovko3193
    i remember commenting here when the new song was realeased saying "in my opinion this was bad" and i go the poo for that! so UG community seems to be really split on this one....or atleast inconsistent
    theclassicrock
    Its likely a casual fan vs hardcore fan thing. Pretty much everyone from UG clicks on these wednsday question articles whereas (mostly) only people who have an active appreciation for RHCP will click on an article about them.
    simon.huguenin25
    I couldn't say that they became shit after John left the band, but it has definitely changed them ! The new single are promising though
    blacksoulrock
    I don't think you can consider RHCP a 'failure' in the post-John era. I'm with you has some really great tracks on it like Ethiopa, Meet me the corner, Factory of faith. Just a different style.
    flowofguitar2
    So true! While their new albums have been great, there was something about John's style fused in the band that made me a bigger fan
    mennie9
    Drowning Pool
    JSmith38
    Came here just for that. When Dave Williams died the sound was never the same.
    Shadow914
    Agreed, even though I enjoy Desensitized alot and I love Ryan McCombs but he belongs in SOiL NOT Drowning Pool. Their latest singer though... What the actual fuck?
    Circumstances23
    The Beatles. Yoko practically joined the band and it all went to hell.
    dex23462
    One Direction without Zain Malik...Just Kidding!!! They sucked before he left, too
    boreamor
    Paramore after the departure of the brothers. They went to clinical pop rock, that was more pop than anything. It just lost so much power and reality.
    zstartup
    Motley Crue without Vince Neil in the 90s, or without Tommy Lee in the early 00s
    0zzmosis
    I wanna say Boston. The Walk On album was alright, considering that Brad Delp wasn't with the band. However, their sound and style completely changed with the last 2 albums. It's more than a feeling... of disappointment.
    travislausch
    Dunno why you got a downvote. This whole "mom-rock" thing they're going for since "Corporate America" is grating. Hell, even "Walk On" was a great record compared to that...
    GGAllinsPizza
    [deleted]
    GGAllinsPizza · Jun 15, 2016 03:35 PM
    besnardmax
    Kyuss without Josh Homme. From heroes to zeros.
    B-Nessie89
    Dream Theater without Mike Portnoy.
    travislausch
    Yeah. As much as I respect Mangini's skills and how well of a personality fit he is for the band, his drumming has left me cold every time. He's such a precise hitter that I can't shake the feeling that I'm listening to a drum machine. Portnoy was a little looser, and his drumming was far more colourful and interesting.
    KBI2113
    Not to mention watching live concert footage. Mangini is a hell of a drummer, don't get me wrong. But I've never seen him play to the crowd, nor mix up his drum patterns. He sounds 100% like the record. Portnoy would play standing up, getting the crowd into it. He'd throw some random fills in that fit perfect. And I think his backing vocals were quite underrated.
    schecterhellraz
    Though it's hard to deny their shift in style after Portnoy left, saying that their recent albums have been failures is simply just wrong. ADTOE was at #8 on the billboard 200 and #1 in a bunch of countries, and they received their first ever Grammy nomination, even though the Grammy's are a joke.. Self Titled made it to #7 on the top 200, marking their 3rd consecutive appearance on the top 10. Astonishing made it to #11 on the top 200 and #1 on the Billboard rock chart for the first time in band history. Not to mention sold out world tours for all of these albums.. If you call this failing, then sign me up!
    nicholas72611
    ADTOE was their last good album. It has some legit good tracks like Lost Not Forgotten and Bridges In the Sky. Their Self Titled and The Astonishing are awful though. Also if you think billboard positions and ticket sales define how good an artist is, then I don't really think you are a Prog, let alone a metal fan.
    schecterhellraz
    I never said anything about my (or popular) opinion on the albums, just the fact that they are still clearly not failing. Self titled is my least favorite DT album with the exception of Enigma Machine and Illumination Theory (because I'm a sucker for instrumentals and Epics). ADTOE is a solid album though, Lost not Forgotten is one of my favorite DT tracks and Bridges, OTBoA, Outcry, Breaking all Illusions... Good Shit! The Astonishing is honestly growing on me, definitely a completely different musical experience from anything they've done in the past. Feels more like i'm listening to Ayreon (THE and 01011001 come to mind). But the album has a lot of moments where I get goosebumps from the music and the anticipation of some of my favorite parts which is really my basis for how I rate music. If it doesn't make me feel anything, then I'm not a big fan of it. Personal favorites; Overtures, Savior in the Square, 3 Days, Life left Behind, Ravenskill, A Tempting Offer(Fucking love that riff), A New Beginning, Heavens Cover(wish this song was 6 mins longer), Path that Divides, Walking Shadow*, Our new World. I think they really need to move away from the Petrucci/Rudess show and become more of a cohesive band though. Mangini is a beast that I feel they still have yet to unleash, and Myung.. well is Myung! They need to let him write more! The few songs he writes are among my personal favs. TL/DR; Dream theater are currently a long way from being a "failed" act. Though long time fans may have different opinions.
    Mr.Rodgers
    Well the question was bands who failed due to lineup changes. So statistics here are important to measure the bRands' success on radio, at selling music as well as their reputation amongst industry insiders. So we must able to measure this success objectively, not because they aren't trve metulz. It's not even about metal bands. To say that I think (local band) Go Primitive have failed since they're lineup changed is neither here nor there without any evidence to support their success financially or in terms of fans, radio plays. Not many people have heard of them at the moment so they can't be considers successful. But especially so without any indication of their momentum. With your logic, I would say mine so the most successful as I'm the only member left... Oh wait, you can't prove opinion. Of course it doesn't prove subjective taste. It proves who are better entertainers... Or who will more people pay more money to see.
    tavocamper
    I personally really dislike what DT has become without Portnoy, but you got a fair argument right there.
    UndeadSon
    Fucking this. Portnoy was the soul of DT and the three albums after him are so bland and clinical.
    Darth Crow
    Fucking not this. Portnoy was the ego of DT and the three albums after him are so fresh and not repeating the same thing over and over again as has become the habit for DT in Portnoy's last years.
    nicholas72611
    The Astonishing is honestly on of the most bland, insipid albums I have ever heard in my life. I made half an hour into that piece of shit until I almost fell asleep. Compare Systematic Chaos to Self Titled. It's obvious which is better. DT died after Portnoy left
    Tsunami3000
    As much as i love the guys i agree completely. Plus it sounds like they left with some bad blood and pretty much kills any possibility of Liquid Tension Experiment ever coming back.
    TheLiberation
    Hilariously ridiculous nomination. Plain wrong if counting success (someone with a great nickname and avatar already explained above), plain ignorant from a musical perspective (I don't care if you like the new albums or not, they're more innovative for the band than anything since Train of Thought probably), plain dumb taking the background into account (if you can't see that had clearly been brewing for years, both sides are clearly happier after the split and MP's control freak habits were clearly getting out of hand, then well... what can I say).
    Petrucci08
    Have to disagree. I'd rather listen to their last 3 albums than to Systematic Chaos or Black Clouds, which I believe were essentially driven by Portnoy, if I correctly remember him saying in an interview he already knew which direction he wanted to go in before even entering the studio with the band for these albums. And as others have said, Mangini brought some new air into the band, and they have been quite successful as a band in the last five or six years. ADTOE, the title album and The Astonishing have been really refreshing, to me anyways.
    Maiden95
    I love ADTOE a lot. I'm indifferent on much of DT12. The Astonishing sucks ass. I hate to say this, but the creative aspect of Dream Theater is pretty much dead. I love that band and have since I started playing music but they need Mike Portnoy.
    metaldalz
    DT whithout Portnoy simply SUCK BALLS!!! 3 Lame ass albums, boring as hell!!! Nothing against Mangini, but Portnoy was and still IS the heart and soul of DT!!
    Maiden95
    Okay I'll be the one to say it. Blaze era Iron Maiden.
    edbradley94
    Agreed. Some great songs to come out of those two albums but tough to stay relevant especially after someone like Bruce leaves.
    TheLiberation
    The fault of internal band issues and Steve's songwriting far more than Blaze who had little to do with them. This is the textbook example why I felt this is not the best idea for a question, blaming one person for a band's unfortunate era is usually plain incorrect.
    chris.reid.319
    Have to agree here....Steve producing the Blaze era albums was a major problem. Even Rod (manager) has said Steve should not have been the producer. Losing Adrian and his song writing skills was more of a setback to the band as well.
    Mahoru
    I might be the odd one out... but I actually liked The X Factor and I like Blaze as a singer. It gave a pretty unique feel to that album that, for sure, didn't feel much like the Maiden we all love, but it was still pretty good IMO. Won't defend Virtual XI though, that one was pretty bad regardless. Still the split was for good, because Bruce got back with full force and we also got Blaze's solo albums, which are for the most part awesome.
    DJL1994
    totally love those albums, like some seriously good material but the concerts stopped being super-size arena's and went to small 2/3000 capacity venues from what i've seen. So you're right, but still loved the blaze era for what it was
    starfire666
    yup, Iron Maiden records with Bruce after that and Blaze solo records as well are far superior to the Blaze era IM output
    6...6...6...
    Interesting thing about this is that the band just kept getting bigger in certain parts of the world (Scandinavia for instance) after Blaze joined. There were of course lots of reasons for their lack of popularity in the 90s so saying it's due to a lineup change would be wrong even though that played a big roll.
    Maiden95
    Didn't know they got bigger in places like Scandinavia, but from what I've heard and read (as I was too young to know first hand) in North America they were playing much smaller venues that often times wouldn't even be close to filled. Plus from the album sales perspective, they are the worst selling Iron Maiden albums.
    6...6...6...
    Apparently the X Factor was their best selling album when it came out in certain parts of the world (I was quite surprised to hear that too)but in much of Europe and North America it absolutely went dowhill for them. Over all those years weren't exactly a high point for Maiden. Though, as I said that wasn't just because Bruce left and Blaze joined but also because the music wasn't cool anymore. An 80s metal band wasn't what appealed to the masses during those times as grunge pretty much had taken over.
    Wiencon
    Limp Bizkit, after this "i don't even remember his name" guy replaced Wes Borland LB ended, Unquestionable Truth was awesome but it was small project, after Wes's departure they just turned to shit after 3 awesome LPs and Gold Cobra was just a musical diarrhea
    eriml
    I don't think Results May Vary was bad
    Wiencon
    It wasn't certainly as bad as people say it was but it had nothing interesting in it. Every record that featured Wes had some delightful guitar work, RMV was just trying to be Linkin Park record with its soft guitars. But that's only my opinion, it is my least favourite LB after GC
    eriml
    GC? what is that? I don't remember anything like that (Sarcasm because of extreme disgust). Yeah, nothing really stand out in RMV, the only songs I listen occasionally are Build a Bridge and Almost Over but they pretty bad compared to anything from TUTPt1 and TDBY
    zack2k
    Yeah, I enjoyed RMV album. GC is alright for me, The virus was alright too, but it was too RATM. But Fred Durst can't rap for shit, he's like Vanilla Ice for Nu Metal.
    N-D
    "The Unquestionable Truth (Part 1)" was recorded when Wes returned again - by the way, for me personally it's one of the best Limp Bizkit's records - at least because of its more mature lyrics and their raw and sincere sound. Mike Smith played guitar only on "Results May Vary" - of course this record is weaker than the previous ones but it's still a solid record - and I agree "Gold Cobra" is (at least for me) the LB's weakest record - even with Wes on guitar.
    metaldalz
    Then Wes came back and Limp Bizkit still sucks balls!! They only have 1 good album (Significant Other) all the others are just a waste of plastic and time...
    SilentPutridity
    Slayer. It just seems weird without Hanneman.
    Mootallica
    Slexodus (Gary Holt) is working though, I wouldn't say slayer are exactly failing right now.
    mrozek.rules
    Avenged Sevenfold. When Jimmy passed, damn what happened to the band...
    Newbs28
    To be fair, they've jumped between albums on a regular basis, especially with differences in genre. I'm reserving judgement to see what happens with Brooks Wackerman behind the kit.
    Voodoochile711
    I mean, I loved Nightmare, and Hail To The King had a few ok songs, but they're definitely not the same. Although, it seems that Syn has stepped up his game since then as far as guitar playing goes.
    Oasis2014
    Actually, they're a bigger band now. They play much bigger venues. Not because of the new drummer. Just coincidence.
    hayes262
    This is the first band that came to mind for me. Although I dont want to say that they 'failed', its just tough without a key component like the Rev
    benmc725
    I disagree. I mean I can understand why people don't like hail to the king but it's kind of soon to say they "failed." It was just one album without the revs hand in it.
    franciscanv
    Have to add Trivium to this. It's just not been the same after Travis Smith left. Plus they peaked at Shogun
    ScottStewart1
    Nah, Silence in the Snow is fantastic. Granted Vengeance Falls was quite underwhelming but that had more to do with Draiman overstepping his bounds as a producer. Nick was a great fit but yeah the revolving door of drummers is a bit concerning. At least they're fired and not just... I don't know, spontaneously combusting or something.
    zstartup
    Metallica after Jason Newsted left/was fired (but before Rob Trujillo was named his replacement). Basically, the Bob Rock/St. Anger-era.
    lurkingfan4
    That only really failed in quality, even though the little I've heard of St. Anger is okay (but not even close to the three first albums) the way I like to put it is: St. Anger is a good album, just not a very good Metallica album. If that makes any sense.
    eatfresh1736
    I actually like St Anger (while recognizing that the quality sucks, and the songwriting is weak). It actually had some pretty groovy riffs, and a real sense of aggression that Metallica hadn't had in over a decade. In fact, the lo-fi has grown on me.
    dudokrs_tdh
    nevermind. posted already on another note, maybe the next wednesday question can be about the best bands whose never had a lineup change
    GGAllinsPizza
    [deleted]
    GGAllinsPizza · Jun 15, 2016 03:20 PM
    PrimalScream91
    [deleted]
    PrimalScream91 · Jun 15, 2016 04:32 PM
    UndeadSon
    Tim Owens era Judas Priest. I mean he's a good singer, but the two albums were turds.
    Ratlhed
    This was gonna be my nomination. Despite that, I actually love those two albums with Ripper. Cathedral Spires from Juggulator is one of my favorite Priest songs and I find the Demolition album altogether pretty killer.
    explosteveo75
    Genesis without Phil Collins. Anyone remember the "Calling All Stations" album ?
    Rael1975
    Genesis without Gabriel, maybe they sold more albums but Genesis will be remembered for songs like Supper's Ready not for Land of Confusion.
    k0stil
    sorry, but Genesis will be remembered for both songs, however most people know Land Of Confusion and not the 20 minute epic - Supper's Ready. They also won in the "bands who suceeded due to major lineup changes" when they changed from Peter to Phil
    jds2
    I would argue that losing Steve Hackett on guitar was the worst lineup change for Genesis. "And Then There Were Three" is OK in spots, what followed steadily went downhill. He never got enough recognition IMHO, but Steve Hackett was an important part of the classic Genesis sound.
    k0stil
    yeah. 2 albums without Peter, but with Hackett were still really good, prog and sounded like Peter-lead Genesis