Goodnighttnight
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Join date: May 2010
335 IQ
#1
Hey i'm learning the major scale right now and i have a question that's been slowing me down ,

Should i learn the major scale with the CAGED system ( 3 notes on 5 strings ,2 notes on 1) , - here http://justinguitar.com/en/SC-001-TheMajorScale.php

This means learning only 5 "boxes"


Or should i learn it with 3 notes per each string - http://z.about.com/d/guitar/1/0/X/G/mjr_scale_3_per_string.gif


I find it easier with the CAGED system as the boxes seem more compact and easier to improvise on , also they are only 5 boxes instead of 7 with the 3 note per string thing. But i want to learn it the right way.

What should i do ?
JamesCrow
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Join date: May 2009
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#2
the way I go about learning scales is I figure out the notes of the scale then find the notes around my fretboard. I feel this helps me get out of the restricting boxed playing style
Ampersand87
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#3
Quote by JamesCrow
the way I go about learning scales is I figure out the notes of the scale then find the notes around my fretboard. I feel this helps me get out of the restricting boxed playing style


+1
Goodnighttnight
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#4
Yep of course you don't stick to a box when you solo you go all over, but i need to learn how each mode sounds like so for example when i change keys i know how the boxes move so i know what order to follow.

Boxed playing doesn't have to be restricting. It contains all of the notes on the whole fretboard , hows that restricting ? If you play in only the same box of course you'll be restricted.
lt22
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#5
Why would you want to play in a box? Just feel the notes. If you hit a note that's not in the scale, bend or slide to a note that is.

In other news, I'm not a big fan of all these methods to learn stuff. Just figure out the notes and play it however you want.
Goodnighttnight
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335 IQ
#6
I just stated that you DON'T have to play in a box.

But i think its important that you know how lydian scale sounds like , aeolian, locrian and so on . For example if you know a song is played in A aeolian it will be really easy for you to get the song down and improvise over it.
Goodnighttnight
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#8
Do i really need to know the 7 boxes of the three notes per string ? Because in CAGED the 5 boxes seem enough as it covers all notes anyways.

Whats the disadvantage of CAGED over TNPS ?

Thanks
steven seagull
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#9
^
Ultimately they're both the same thing, there's no reason to differentiate between them - different ways of looking at things are useful in different situations.

Quote by Goodnighttnight
I just stated that you DON'T have to play in a box.

But i think its important that you know how lydian scale sounds like , aeolian, locrian and so on . For example if you know a song is played in A aeolian it will be really easy for you to get the song down and improvise over it.

Neither CAGED or 3nps patterns are going to help you with that.
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Last edited by steven seagull at Jun 1, 2010,
chainsawguitar
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#10
Quote by steven seagull
^
Ultimately they're both the same thing, there's no reason to differentiate between them - different ways of looking at things are useful in different situations.


Neither CAGED or 3nps patterns are going to help you with that.


+1

Both 3nps and CAGED are different ways of looking at the SAME THING- so it doesn't matter which one you start with you should eventually know both.
Goodnighttnight
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335 IQ
#11
Alright i will bring this up to my teacher see what he says,
personally CAGED is a lot more compact and easily processed for me.

Thank you guys
n1
RDSElite
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#12
I'll take knowing the notes of the fretboard over CAGED or 3nps "patterns" any day.
I do not want to have a signature anymore.
J_Byrd
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#13
Id start out learning basic CAGED patterns, then on to three notes per string. After a long time of experimenting with patterns, though, it will all kind of blend into a complete "map" of the fretboard. TNPS patterns do make great excersises, though
Goodnighttnight
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#14
@RDSElite

Well isn't that the same ?
And for example when you have memorized all the notes of the Major scale in key of A for example , how will you know how to play the major scale again in a different key?

That's what the boxes are for to know the pattern.
Eddy~
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#15
^I think what he means is knowing all the frets on the noteboard and then applying that knowledge to the scale interwals.
RDSElite
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#16
Quote by Eddy~
^I think what he means is knowing all the frets on the noteboard and then applying that knowledge to the scale interwals.


Indeed.
It's not a case of only knowing all the notes in A major, like in the example above your post, but knowing ALL the notes on the fretboard, so I can find my way in any key, anywhere on the neck. Also, this allows me to not be "stuck" inside the 3nps patterns, I can move out of them whenever I want to, because I know exactly where (I want) to go.
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88naka
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#17
Learn how to read properly , but CAGED is far more useful to build chords and etc ...
Freepower
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#18
Quote by RDSElite
Indeed.
It's not a case of only knowing all the notes in A major, like in the example above your post, but knowing ALL the notes on the fretboard, so I can find my way in any key, anywhere on the neck. Also, this allows me to not be "stuck" inside the 3nps patterns, I can move out of them whenever I want to, because I know exactly where (I want) to go.


Without being a prick, the threadstarter has made it very clear that he's perfectly aware of the notes of the neck and he's not planning to get stuck inside boxes.

Even extremely good players organize their fretboards using systems, and a fingering system becomes essential when a certain amount of speed is required.
revoh
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#19
TS, I wondered this myself a few months back and talked to a friend of mine who teaches guitar at a music uni. He told me he personally knows both, but he learned the 3 note per string system first and he greatly regrets that as he found it much more shape driven and harder to relate to modes as he was advancing in his playing, and also he didnt like how it didnt revolve around a chord.
So in his, and mine opinion, the CAGED is better to learn first as it revolves around chord shapes, which can immediatly help you when improvising over changes where the key of the song changes constantly and you dont necesarily want to be all over the fretboard, but would rather stay in a general area.

He did mention that the 3 note per string is what all the pro's seem to use when they go into shred, blazing speed, mode. But that at other times they categorize scales in a more CAGED driven system.

CHeers, hope this helps
steven seagull
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#20
It doesn't matter which one you "use", it's not even a choice - they're just "there", different ways of looking at the same thing.

All that matters is that you UNDERSTAND what's going on underneath it all, at the end of the day CAGED amd 3 nps patterns aren't absolutes, they're just things you may choose to use if they're appropriate. Whatevever you're doing at any given time you're still just looking at 7 notes.
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ronkun
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#21
In my case though i learned a using method which is close to the 3NPS method but what my teacher did back then was letting me find the patterns by myself by making me analyze all the notes until i found a box pattern this method is faster than CAGED for me but when i checked up the CAGED system it really shows how to relate scales to chords so it really pays to learn both
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althebold711
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Join date: Oct 2009
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#22
Quote by Goodnighttnight
Hey i'm learning the major scale right now and i have a question that's been slowing me down ,

Should i learn the major scale with the CAGED system ( 3 notes on 5 strings ,2 notes on 1) , - here http://justinguitar.com/en/SC-001-TheMajorScale.php

This means learning only 5 "boxes"


Or should i learn it with 3 notes per each string - http://z.about.com/d/guitar/1/0/X/G/mjr_scale_3_per_string.gif


I find it easier with the CAGED system as the boxes seem more compact and easier to improvise on , also they are only 5 boxes instead of 7 with the 3 note per string thing. But i want to learn it the right way.

What should i do ?


The right way would be to not learn either and to either learn the notes of the fretboard and/or the intervals ie. the number of semitones between each note of a scale. The latter i find much easier.
Astounding
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Join date: Jul 2011
40 IQ
#23
There's a lot of terrible information in this thread. To any new guitarists who stumble upon this thread, beware of people telling you to blindly feel your way through. Learn the pattern system that works best for you, then let your subconscious use it.
Last edited by Astounding at Aug 31, 2011,
fretmaster13
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#24
I say learn the 3 note per string patterns and then learn to take the notes up and down to get all of the shapes in your mind. You can learn the mode shapes for each key too.
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Camo1902
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#25
Quote by Astounding
There's a lot of terrible information in this thread. To any new guitarists who stumble upon this thread, beware of people telling you to blindly feel your way through. Learn the pattern system that works best for you, then let your subconscious use it.


Completely agree. Some dodgy info in here.

I learned 3nps first and then condensed the patterns to work out the CAGED shapes. Practiced them a bunch and committed them to memory so that using them now is completely natural.

Don't really think it matters which you start with, as long as long as you're properly learning your scales. Once you really nail 1 set of the patterns the other set is pretty simple to work out.
fretmaster13
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#26
The problem with caged shapes is that they sometimes contain a 2 note string or have an awkward fingering, but they're good for getting the hang of different tones. 3 notes allows you to play faster. Not necessarily better, but is easier when you want to play fast.
"To this day I don't have a guitar idol. I have people who are my favorites." - Randy Rhoads
zincabopataurio
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#27
Learn both, they both are useful depending on the context. Also, you shouldn't depend on shapes to learn scales, make sure you also learn the scales properly.
fretmaster13
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#28
I think learning scales properly is all about actually hearing the notes. Not just playing them mindlessly and vibrato-less-ly like some people on youtube. If you have a lack of vibrato then you just don't understand the sound of music. That's how I see it. If there's no good vibrato on the last note of your run, then you need to reassess. Vibrato plays a huge role TO ME in whether you understand music or not.
"To this day I don't have a guitar idol. I have people who are my favorites." - Randy Rhoads
Last edited by fretmaster13 at Sep 2, 2011,
Zaphod_Beeblebr
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#29
Quote by fretmaster13
I think learning scales properly is all about actually hearing the notes. Not just playing them mindlessly and vibrato-less-ly like some people on youtube. If you have a lack of vibrato then you just don't understand the sound of music. That's how I see it. If there's no good vibrato on the last note of your run, then you need to reassess. Vibrato plays a huge role TO ME in whether you understand music or not.


Over use of vibrato is just as bad as having none. Control and appropriate use are the key words here.
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BrandyWalch
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Join date: Aug 2013
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#30
I prefer the 3nps method but my first guitar teacher taught me (well sorta taught me) the caged system. I think learning them both would have a positive affect though
raredesign
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Join date: Apr 2012
54 IQ
#32
I personally think caged for pent/blues and 3 note per string for full major/minor.
The more you practice, the lines will disappear and it becomes a single fingerboard. Obviously, the virtual boxes exist in different ways depending on how you want to do runs, etc.

What I found helped a lot is mixing the modes over the pentatonic caged system so you learn where the sharps/flats are.

I have seen many well known guitarists use the 3NPS method in their scale runs.
raredesign
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Join date: Apr 2012
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#33
Quote by Astounding
There's a lot of terrible information in this thread. To any new guitarists who stumble upon this thread, beware of people telling you to blindly feel your way through. Learn the pattern system that works best for you, then let your subconscious use it.


I completely agree. Thanks for posting this. I am so tired of hearing people think that there is some form of eliteness demonstrated in those who learn slowly by picking through the notes with their ear simply because they don't want to put in the time to train their muscle memory. Don't get me wrong, everyone is entitled to learn however suits them, but pushing it like it is gospel can really hinder some new players.

What worked for me is spending the time to get the scales hammered into a fluid muscle memory so I don't think about it or have to look and if I slip and come short, my ear immediately recognizes so I slide or bend.
cdgraves
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Join date: Jan 2013
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#34
Neither approach is useful if you don't practice your scales with position changes. Non-stop motion, up and down, open position to 19th position. Use 4 notes on the E strings to switch positions.

4 notes per string scales are also a great way to avoid getting stuck in positions. Having those under your fingers will make it easy to move up and down the fretboard no matter where you are.

It's really important to remember that positions are a technique thing. The position should be a matter of choice based on where your chords/melodies are going and what tone you want.