corrda00
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Join date: Sep 2006
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#1
I've noticed a lot these days that metal and hardcore bands use the word progressive too easily to describe their music.

I feel that progressive should mean incorperating high art forms such as classical, jazz and world music, not just being a death metal band that has 1 time signature change and a riff with more than 3 or 4 notes.

Bands like Opeth and Dream Theater are progressive. Your metalcore band that incorperates a little bit of black or death metal here and there is not.

I just find that a band shouldn't be calling themselves progressive if they havent even heard of bands like King Crimson or ELP or even know what a scale or paralell 5ths is.

End rant.
Aays
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#2
Lately everything is called progressive if it hits the seven minute mark. The terrible mess that is Bring Me The Horizon is no longer 'crap' according to hordes of butthurt fans but instead 'progressive technical post hardcore'.

But it's not something I like to dwell on much. There are idiots in the world. The least we can do is give them attention, and I'd rather not do that.
MonsterMetalMus
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#3
Quote by Aays
Lately everything is called progressive if it hits the seven minute mark. The terrible mess that is Bring Me The Horizon is no longer 'crap' according to hordes of butthurt fans but instead 'progressive technical post hardcore'.

But it's not something I like to dwell on much. There are idiots in the world. The least we can do is give them attention, and I'd rather not do that.



People are really calling BMTH progressive?
Second Rate
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#4
the problem is that people these days equate being "technical" with being "progressive." There are lots of bands out there that are technical, but aren't very progressive at all (something like Zero Hour or Spiral Architect comes to mind).... likewise, there are bands out there that are very progressive that aren't necessarily very technical (Pink Floyd, Porcupine Tree, or Beardfish anyone?).

Brain isn't working properly right now, i hope that little diatribe makes sense.
Aays
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#5
Quote by MonsterMetalMus
People are really calling BMTH progressive?


I've heard Suicide Silence being called progressive.

Read that slowly.

Suicide Silence.

Morphogenesis26
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#6
How is incorporating different genres of music into your own Progressive? And how is Dream Theater any different than the Metalcore band you're talking about? What Classical or World music do they incorporate into the music?
neidnarb11890
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#7
Public Image Ltd. are progressive becuz they quoted Tchaikovsky in "Death Disco/Swan Lake".
gateway01
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#8
Agreed. I am a genre freak and I only label bands progressive if they are. Like DT, Protest the Hero, Rush, The Flower Kings, LTE, etc.

Quote by Morphogenesis26
How is incorporating different genres of music into your own Progressive? And how is Dream Theater any different than the Metalcore band you're talking about? What Classical or World music do they incorporate into the music?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dSztjpJNNk
This song has 106 time signature changes fit into a 6 minute song. Petrucci uses several classical and world techniques in his playing, such as:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSX86zPnUkY

Your metalcore band simply plays some low B power chords palm muted and screams. It doesn't include such a skill and difficulty that progressive does. Metalcore is sort of the "I Can Play Metal" genre, while prog is more of a "snap-the-guitar" genre.
Last edited by gateway01 at Apr 12, 2012,
Morphogenesis26
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#9
Quote by gateway01
Agreed. I am a genre freak and I only label bands progressive if they are. Like DT, Protest the Hero, Rush, The Flower Kings, LTE, etc.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dSztjpJNNk
This song has 106 time signature changes fit into a 6 minute song. Petrucci uses several classical and world techniques in his playing, such as:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSX86zPnUkY

Your metalcore band simply plays some low B power chords palm muted and screams. It doesn't include such a skill and difficulty that progressive does. Metalcore is sort of the "I Can Play Metal" genre, while prog is more of a "snap-the-guitar" genre.


Those songs sound more like just Technical Metal and I really don't hear the Classical or World influence in either. Could you be specific and point some things out?

As for the Metalcore part...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJBjWpas0q4

That song is played in D-Standard, has many Time Signature changes throughout, tempo changes multiple times, strange chordal patterns, extremely jarring and intense vocals, ravenous and complex drumming, and a generally kick ass song.

That is what Metalcore is.

EDIT: As for the "Snap-the-guitar" part, most of King Crimson and Yes's earlier works weren't that technical, but still considered Progressive music.
Last edited by Morphogenesis26 at Apr 12, 2012,
gateway01
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#10
EDIT: As for the "Snap-the-guitar" part, most of King Crimson and Yes's earlier works weren't that technical, but still considered Progressive music.


On the contrary. Just because Yes or King Crimson wasn't distorted and loud doesn't mean that they weren't technical. Have you ever actually tried to play "Roundabout" or "21st Century Schizoid Man"? They are extremely complex songs, almost equal to the fast strumming of Dream Theater and Protest the Hero.

There is a little known King Crimson song called "Matte Kudasai" that really incorporates a lot of the "world" elements earlier discussed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykkFcVxvPU4&feature=relmfu
Morphogenesis26
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#11
Quote by gateway01
On the contrary. Just because Yes or King Crimson wasn't distorted and loud doesn't mean that they weren't technical. Have you ever actually tried to play "Roundabout" or "21st Century Schizoid Man"? They are extremely complex songs, almost equal to the fast strumming of Dream Theater and Protest the Hero.

There is a little known King Crimson song called "Matte Kudasai" that really incorporates a lot of the "world" elements earlier discussed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykkFcVxvPU4&feature=relmfu


That's why I said "Most" of their works. And even then, the Dream Theater songs would take far more time to get down and play cleanly than those.

Here's a question I should ask then; If you are taking other elements of music and form it together, then how is that Progression? Dream Theater didn't put forth a sound that was unheard of before. Sure, the Aesthetic may have been different, but at it's core it had been done by the likes of Emerson Lake And Palmer and Rush(mostly Rush).

I think the term for a band like Dream Theater and such would be "Neo-Prog".
gateway01
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#12
Quote by Morphogenesis26
That's why I said "Most" of their works. And even then, the Dream Theater songs would take far more time to get down and play cleanly than those.

Here's a question I should ask then; If you are taking other elements of music and form it together, then how is that Progression? Dream Theater didn't put forth a sound that was unheard of before. Sure, the Aesthetic may have been different, but at it's core it had been done by the likes of Emerson Lake And Palmer and Rush(mostly Rush).

I think the term for a band like Dream Theater and such would be "Neo-Prog".


Modern rappers were derived from bands like Faith No More an The Red Hot Chili Peppers. Do you call them "Neo-Rap"?

A genre constantly evolves with every new addition, taking from the old and adding to the new. You can't completely displace them because they were inspired by others, not unless there is some drastic change like metal branching off from rock or such. Just because prog's influences are older doesn't change that they're prog.

Do you see what I mean?
Morphogenesis26
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#13
Quote by gateway01
Modern rappers were derived from bands like Faith No More an The Red Hot Chili Peppers. Do you call them "Neo-Rap"?

A genre constantly evolves with every new addition, taking from the old and adding to the new. You can't completely displace them because they were inspired by others, not unless there is some drastic change like metal branching off from rock or such. Just because prog's influences are older doesn't change that they're prog.

Do you see what I mean?


I'm not the most knowledgeable on the subject of Hip-Hop, so I can't comment on it.

I see what you mean, but it feels like a lot of Progressive Metal bands of today, and even from it's inception, don't really play something that' Progresses the genre or music, it just tries to sound like the classic Prog artists. That's not what Progression is to me.

I think this is where it becomes a matter of personal opinion and what each person defines as "Progressive". Neither definition is wrong or bad, just a different way of viewing things.

Different strokes for Different folks.
Geldin
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#14
I think a lot of people tend to think of progressive music as the be-all, end-all of musical composition in rock music. That's a silly way of thinking.
Banjocal
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#15
I could name key aspects of genres if I had to, but for the most part, I know what bands fall into what genre based on the bands I know which they sound like. It's very difficult to differentiate between experimental, progressive and avant-garde, but when it comes to it, just taxonomise based on your informed instinct. I came across Tides of Man recently: everyone says they're progressive rock, yet I think they're post hardcore. A little experimental, sure, but they don't sound like any other prog rock I've heard. I do agree: people throw the term around too much.

I think that the original meaning behind prog rock is now lost, and people use the term to describe a sound that the bands in the genre have, rather than the original meaning behind the name.
Last edited by Banjocal at Apr 13, 2012,
Emperor's Child
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#16
Quote by gateway01
On the contrary. Just because Yes or King Crimson wasn't distorted and loud doesn't mean that they weren't technical. Have you ever actually tried to play "Roundabout" or "21st Century Schizoid Man"? They are extremely complex songs, almost equal to the fast strumming of Dream Theater and Protest the Hero.

There is a little known King Crimson song called "Matte Kudasai" that really incorporates a lot of the "world" elements earlier discussed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykkFcVxvPU4&feature=relmfu
Now that you mention it, 21st Century Schizoid Man is sooo Dream Theater. A massive solo after the second chorus that's 3 minutes long? ...Dream Theater.

With regard to the whole Technical vs Progressive. Yes Progressive refers more to structure whilst Technical refers to rhythm patterns, but there is a LOT of crossover. Even Porcupine Tree have some Technical elements in songs like Futile and Anesthetize.
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Morphogenesis26
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#17
Quote by Banjocal
I think that the original meaning behind prog rock is now lost, and people use the term to describe a sound that the bands in the genre have, rather than the original meaning behind the name.


That's what I meant. Thank you for summing all my posts in here up in a sentence.
Banjocal
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#18
Quote by Morphogenesis26
That's what I meant. Thank you for summing all my posts in here up in a sentence.
Any time. I didn't read the OP properly, so that went better than expected.

To be honest, the meaning behind progressive rock has now moved onto the label "experimental rock" and when it's too whacky to be experimental, they call it avant-garde . If you look at how the two are labelled, the semantics of expt. rock are similar to prog, only there seems to be a stronger focus on physical manipulation of instruments and blending different genres even more than prog did. Back then of course, that was (sort of) the definition of prog rock.
Magero
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#19
ITT: People who have only an entry level view on progressive music, metalcore and music in general overreacting to things they hear from that one scene kid in their music class, and telling other people what their music is and isn't.

Aside from the obvious exceptions, and they know if I'm talking to them.
Last edited by Magero at Apr 13, 2012,
gateway01
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#20
I think that the original meaning behind prog rock is now lost, and people use the term to describe a sound that the bands in the genre have, rather than the original meaning behind the name.


I think we have reached a consensus.
NotFromANUS
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#21
Quote by Magero
ITT: People who have only an entry level view on progressive music, metalcore and music in general overreacting to things they hear from that one scene kid in their music class, and telling other people what their music is and isn't.

Aside from the obvious exceptions, and they know if I'm talking to them.

This thread got Magero and I to agree. That speaks volumes to the utter failure and asininity of this thread.

Quote by OP
Bands like Opeth and Dream Theater are progressive.

No, they aren't.
gateway01
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#22
Quote by NotFromANUS
No, they aren't.

Yes they are. They are the pinnacles of prog. The prime examples. The definition of progressive. When I hear progressive, the first name that come to mind is Petrucci.
Second Rate
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#23
Quote by gateway01
Yes they are. They are the pinnacles of prog. The prime examples. The definition of progressive. When I hear progressive, the first name that come to mind is Petrucci.


Really? For me, the first name that comes to mind is Fripp. Dream Theater is good, and they are progressive in the sense that their music is not trapped in the blues box..... but they have not kept pushing the boundaries forward like a King Crimson or ELP.
Magero
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#24
Quote by gateway01
Yes they are. They are the pinnacles of prog. The prime examples. The definition of progressive. When I hear progressive, the first name that come to mind is Petrucci.

Somewhere, right now, Dweezil Zappa is crying.
Quote by NotFromANUS
This thread got Magero and I to agree. That speaks volumes to the utter failure and asininity of this thread.

*tips hat respectfully*
Last edited by Magero at Apr 14, 2012,
voncameron
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#25
I think Progressive is kind of a stupid term, like Indie Rock; they don't really mean anything. If progressive simply means pushing the boundaries of an established genre, that would qualify a lot of bands.