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Xiaoxi
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#41
Quote by FrauVfromPoB
My jazz teacher told him that. I just kind of shrugged and did them anyway. I was under the impression that jazz was all about the spirit of improvisation and doing your own thing.

The spirit is definitely improvisation. But "doing your own thing"? Not exactly. One could argue that jazz is about individuals doing what's best for the entire group. Jazz is a distinct style with a distinct language. Guitar string bends usually just doesn't fit in, neither do guitar vibratos.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Xiaoxi
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#42
Quote by chronowarp
I take it you prefer European Jazz lol.

No, I prefer American, and there is plenty of American jazz that is not anchored by the blues, both new and old. And the ones that emphasize on blues is still not achievable if you only know how to play the blues.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Oct 19, 2012,
chronowarp
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#43
Quote by Xiaoxi
The spirit is definitely improvisation. But "doing your own thing"? Not exactly. One could argue that jazz is about individuals doing what's best for the entire group. Jazz is a distinct style with a distinct language. Guitar string bends usually just doesn't fit in, neither do guitar vibratos.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzOSJZ7xGKM
Xiaoxi
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#44
Quote by chronowarp
contrarian

First of all, I said usually, and especially under the assumption that this is a beginner learning the basics of jazz. David Fiuzynski is far beyond that point. Second of all, this is modern fusion with strong emphasis on funk, which of course does have guitar bends. Does that mean you can break out a Real Book chart with a typical quartet and start bending whole steps and doing Zakk Wylde vibratos?

...modes and scales are still useless.


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chronowarp
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#45
I'm yanking yer chain.

I understand what you're saying. that's why I said it's good advice to a point. But from the other angle I've seen plenty of "blues guitarists" with good feel and melodic sense completely lose everything good about their playing by separating themselves from those aspects of their technique in a jazz context.
Xiaoxi
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#46
Quote by chronowarp
But from the other angle I've seen plenty of "blues guitarists" with good feel and melodic sense completely lose everything good about their playing by separating themselves from those aspects of their technique in a jazz context.

Which goes back to my whole point. That's why jazz needs to be perceived as its own entity, not an addendum to "the blues", whatever the hell that means to the person thinking it.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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King Of Suede
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#47
To put it simply, I'll first raise my flameshield...

(straight ahead) Jazz today is basically musical masturbation. It's about complex harmonies (or the implication of complex harmonies) and is generally seen as "art music." Though it branches out far into other realms.

Blues is music that you feel. It's not necessarily about how "hip" your line is so much as it's about playing something honest with yourself. It's not to say the blues is easier than jazz because they are different beasts from each other.

Thats also not to say there's not overlap. There are blues recordings that will be called jazz and jazz recordings that people will label as blues.
Both genres stretch out pretty far and are not as simple as boxing something into jazz or blues.

That being said if you want blues, listen to more than Mr. Vaughan
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sht up u flthy librl foogit stfu u soo mad n butthurdt ur ass is an analpocolypse cuz ur so gay "my ass hrts so mcuh" - u. your rectally vexed n anlly angushed lolo go bck 2 asslnd lolol
Xiaoxi
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#48
Quote by King Of Suede

(straight ahead) Jazz today is basically musical masturbation. It's about complex harmonies (or the implication of complex harmonies) and is generally seen as "art music." Though it branches out far into other realms.

There is so much wrong with this....

Straight ahead jazz, by definition, can't be what you're characterizing. Straight ahead jazz is basically traditional, more-or-less bebop style jazz without venturing into modern harmonic territories. So if straight ahead jazz "today" is musical masturbation, then jazz has always been musical masturbation.

And sure, some musicians may be guilty of bringing in as complicated as harmonies and harmonic devices as they can to be show-offs, that is in no way representative of all modern jazz. That's like saying that guitar rock is all like Rusty Cooley and MAB trying to play as fast and flashy as they can without any musical sense. The majority of the top in-line jazz artists today make beautiful music that is a natural evolution of the standard jazz that comes before it. Of course, it may sound disorienting or incoherent to you if you aren't well versed in jazz to begin with, but a lot of jazz listeners can easily pick up on these new innovations without thinking that the rug has been pulled from under them.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Xiaoxi
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#50
lol you keep posting videos of my alums (and teachers)

...modes and scales are still useless.


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King Of Suede
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#52
Ok... The art music comment was directed towards the fact that Jazz is often grouped in with Classical in an education setting as respected forms of music, right?
Jazz in a all encompassing term is not meant to be appreciated by the average listener, just like symphonic music today. It's generally seen as a higher form of music.

If we want to get nit-picky, "traditional jazz" is not bebop in any sense. But most people who want to be serious at jazz look at people like Charlie Parker, Dizzy, and Bird and go "THAT IS JAZZ. I PLAY THAT." Dig?
I am not saying that jazz has always been musical masturbation. During the '20s, hell it was equivalent to artists like Kanye and Katy Perry.
it may sound disorienting or incoherent to you if you aren't well versed in jazz to begin with, but a lot of jazz listeners can easily pick up on these new innovations without thinking that the rug has been pulled from under them.

This is like me discussing the architectural layout of the next world's biggest skyscraper with an architect and him just going "Yeah, I mean it's nothing too ground breaking".. That doesn't stop me, who knows nothing about how to build buildings, from going "What the **** is going on. Is this real life."
Quote by Banjocal
sht up u flthy librl foogit stfu u soo mad n butthurdt ur ass is an analpocolypse cuz ur so gay "my ass hrts so mcuh" - u. your rectally vexed n anlly angushed lolo go bck 2 asslnd lolol
Xiaoxi
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#53
Quote by King Of Suede
Ok... The art music comment was directed towards the fact that Jazz is often grouped in with Classical in an education setting as respected forms of music, right?
I had no contention with the art music bit...I didn't comment on it.

If we want to get nit-picky, "traditional jazz" is not bebop in any sense. But most people who want to be serious at jazz look at people like Charlie Parker, Dizzy, and Bird and go "THAT IS JAZZ. I PLAY THAT." Dig?
OK, but you were saying that straight-ahead jazz TODAY is musical masturbation. I assume that today is far removed from the 40s-50s when Parker and Gillespie and Bird (who is actually Parker) were playing. It sounds like you're suggesting that those guys aren't musical masturbation, but today, someone play straight ahead jazz, which is in that exact tradition, IS masturbation. It's faulty logic.

This is like me discussing the architectural layout of the next world's biggest skyscraper with an architect and him just going "Yeah, I mean it's nothing too ground breaking".. That doesn't stop me, who knows nothing about how to build buildings, from going "What the **** is going on. Is this real life."
I understand that it may not be your taste. The problem with your brief on what jazz is is that it's extremely subjective of your own view, and not at all an objective explanation of the qualities of jazz, which is what is being asked.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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King Of Suede
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#54
This was the reason for the shield...

Xiaoxi, if you would like to nit pick people's posts pertaining to giving a brief synopsis of the oh-so-popular jazz vs. blues conversation, I invite you to type up a post discussing the differences/similarities/other details you deem necessary to get your point across of jazz and blues.
I would be more than happy to discuss the semantics of your post.

Point being: I could have written a 5 page essay or discussed all the aspects of the styles all day with the OP over a skype call. However, I wanted to make a quick lay-man's explanation of both. It was not written to be an all-encompassing post. I am sorry you disagree with some of my word choices, but since I was making a post directed at someone who says Blues/smooth jazz = Stevie Ray Vaughan, I didn't feel that much detail on the semantics of both styles was needed in the context in which his question was presented.
Quote by Banjocal
sht up u flthy librl foogit stfu u soo mad n butthurdt ur ass is an analpocolypse cuz ur so gay "my ass hrts so mcuh" - u. your rectally vexed n anlly angushed lolo go bck 2 asslnd lolol
Xiaoxi
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#55
Quote by King Of Suede

I would be more than happy to discuss the semantics of your post.

Point being: I could have written a 5 page essay or discussed all the aspects of the styles all day with the OP over a skype call. However, I wanted to make a quick lay-man's explanation of both.

It has nothing to do with semantics, and I understand that you're trying to give a quick low-down of the differences. But they were just really poor explanations.

Imagine if someone wanted to know about death metal and I simply said: death metal is just really incoherent noise and guys trying to play as fast as possible. Is that at all an accurate objective breakdown of the genre?

That's basically what you did pertaining to jazz by calling it mental masturbation and almost implying that it's music that's unreachable to the layperson. Poor word choices? Even if that's not what you meant, that's what it came off as.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Oct 19, 2012,
King Of Suede
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#56
K.
Quote by Banjocal
sht up u flthy librl foogit stfu u soo mad n butthurdt ur ass is an analpocolypse cuz ur so gay "my ass hrts so mcuh" - u. your rectally vexed n anlly angushed lolo go bck 2 asslnd lolol
British_Steal
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#60
Well Id say the technical demands of jazz guitar are definitely greater than that of blues. You need a better facility on the fretboard and good technique to let your ideas out effectively because in jazz they are going to be more complicated ideas. Id say Jazz is next to Classical as one of the most difficult genres of music.

Jazz uses more complex harmonies, rhythms and melodies than blues does. There is also a huge variety within Jazz. Jazz does have some roots in the blues though since it developed partly from that style (you'll hear the odd blues lick in jazz and there are a lot of standards based on the blues chord progression) and the element of improvisation remains a key factor in both, but they are very different animals none the less.
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KG6_Steven
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#61
Quote by FrauVfromPoB
My jazz teacher told him that. I just kind of shrugged and did them anyway. I was under the impression that jazz was all about the spirit of improvisation and doing your own thing.



I still do it from time to time. I used to tell my instructor I was playing contemporary jazz. You are correct about jazz being all about the spirit of improv. I guess if the mod hits and you feel the need to bend, then bend until you scratch that itch.
KG6_Steven
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#62
Quote by King Of Suede
I am not saying that jazz has always been musical masturbation. During the '20s, hell it was equivalent to artists like Kanye and Katy Perry.




The jazz musicians of the 20s had more talent in their fart gas, than Kanye and Perry could ever hope to possess. That's like comparing Pee Wee Herman to John Wayne. No comparison.
macashmack
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#63
Quote by KG6_Steven
The jazz musicians of the 20s had more talent in their fart gas, than Kanye and Perry could ever hope to possess. That's like comparing Pee Wee Herman to John Wayne. No comparison.


Kanye West is a lyrical mutha****in wordsmith genius!
King Of Suede
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#64
Quote by KG6_Steven
The jazz musicians of the 20s had more talent in their fart gas, than Kanye and Perry could ever hope to possess. That's like comparing Pee Wee Herman to John Wayne. No comparison.

No, but it was popular in the sense that people would listen to it at parties and other social gatherings, much like what we consider pop music of today. It was accessible to everyone.
Quote by Banjocal
sht up u flthy librl foogit stfu u soo mad n butthurdt ur ass is an analpocolypse cuz ur so gay "my ass hrts so mcuh" - u. your rectally vexed n anlly angushed lolo go bck 2 asslnd lolol
xxdarrenxx
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#65
I actually find Bebop more musical masturbation then modern jazz

And Xiaoxi has a good point, and really there's not an accepted scale of "Musical-element-Relations" to rate which genres relate better.

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