Paddynbob
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#1
Right, I'm really not fishing for views here, honest!

But I'm recording my EP just now, and I've always had a pretty sure sound that I've always used. This is my Epiphone LP Standard with a SD Invader in Bridge (Epi by choice, not by lack of funding!) through my EHX Metal Muff straight into Blackstar HT Stage 60, no FX Loop (although in the link its an Orange TH30).

I personally like the tone most of the time, although its not really like a lot of the tones of the same genre, but I'm having doubts, because of the differences, if you see what I mean.

The sound is very grainy, as it will always be through an Orange, I guess, and sounds very similar via my Blackstar (maybe not quite as grainy). My amp settings are usually Amp: Treble- 4 Bass-4, and i basically EQ it through my pedal: Bass-8 Mids-4ish Treble-6/7, and the distortion level is fixed somewhere... god knows where.

On other, softer tracks, I use my Gibson, but I've got the tone nailed for those bits

I realise I'll get some Epi/Non-FX haters, but hey-ho :L

Yay or Nae to this tone?

www.facebook.com/twinparadoxofficial
click on music, only track
Last edited by Paddynbob at Oct 20, 2012,
JesusCrisp
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#2
How about using the amp's actual overdrive, more mids and less bass?
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Paddynbob
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#3
Quote by JesusCrisp
How about using the amp's actual overdrive, more mids and less bass?


I did tune down the bass in this a bit
do you mean as well as the pedal?
JesusCrisp
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#4
Quote by Paddynbob
I did tune down the bass in this a bit
do you mean as well as the pedal?

No, just the amp's overdrive.
What's the point of playing through a high gain amp (which both the Orange and the HT-60 are) and using a fizzy distortion pedal for the gain?
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Paddynbob
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#5
Quote by JesusCrisp
No, just the amp's overdrive.
What's the point of playing through a high gain amp (which both the Orange and the HT-60 are) and using a fizzy distortion pedal for the gain?


I don't know how much you could describe the stage 60 as "high gain", really... It's a great amp, but it really just handles hard rock/punk
KailM
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#6
(@ JesusCrisp)^^Agreed. Both of those amps have a much better tone on their own without a distortion pedal.

TS, what you might find works a lot better is an overdrive pedal set as a boost rather than a stand alone distortion. Run it straight from your guitar into the front of the amp, turn the gain on the OD pedal all or most of the way down, and the volume most of the way up. Run it this way on your already overdriven channels. This will produce a nice, tight distortion that still allows the natural character of your amp's overdrive to come through.

There are very few "distortion" pedals that can offer any improvement over a tube amp's natural distortion.

That said, I didn't find your tone inappropriate for your style of music. But I do think a thicker, less fuzzy/grainy tone would work better.
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#7
Quote by Paddynbob
I don't know how much you could describe the stage 60 as "high gain", really... It's a great amp, but it really just handles hard rock/punk

Then you're doing something wrong.
I was getting PLENTY of gain and the right kind of voicing out of an HT-40 when I tried one and that was with a Strat with a much lower output humbucker than the Invaders in your guitar.
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KailM
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#8
Quote by Paddynbob
I don't know how much you could describe the stage 60 as "high gain", really... It's a great amp, but it really just handles hard rock/punk


Use an OD boost like I described and you can get full-on death metal tone out of that amp. I've only played the HT 20 and 40, and I was able to get into thrash metal tone without any pedals -- just engage the extra boost on the lead channel.
Paddynbob
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#9
Quote by JesusCrisp
Then you're doing something wrong.
I was getting PLENTY of gain and the right kind of voicing out of an HT-40 when I tried one and that was with a Strat with a much lower output humbucker than the Invaders in your guitar.


God knows :L Saying that, I've not really had a chance to try the high gain with the volume all the way up, would that make a large amount of difference?
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#10
Quote by KailM
Use an OD boost like I described and you can get full-on death metal tone out of that amp. I've only played the HT 20 and 40, and I was able to get into thrash metal tone without any pedals -- just engage the extra boost on the lead channel.


Do you think I'd get quite as much gain as the Muff?
Paddynbob
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#11
Quote by KailM
(@ JesusCrisp)^^Agreed. Both of those amps have a much better tone on their own without a distortion pedal.

TS, what you might find works a lot better is an overdrive pedal set as a boost rather than a stand alone distortion. Run it straight from your guitar into the front of the amp, turn the gain on the OD pedal all or most of the way down, and the volume most of the way up. Run it this way on your already overdriven channels. This will produce a nice, tight distortion that still allows the natural character of your amp's overdrive to come through.

There are very few "distortion" pedals that can offer any improvement over a tube amp's natural distortion.

That said, I didn't find your tone inappropriate for your style of music. But I do think a thicker, less fuzzy/grainy tone would work better.


Would a DS1 work like a OD pedal, or would a dedicated OD pedal work better?
KailM
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#12
Quote by Paddynbob
Would a DS1 work like a OD pedal, or would a dedicated OD pedal work better?


No, a DS1 will give you shit. You need an OD pedal or a clean boost pedal. But most people playing in metal genres just use an OD pedal like an Ibanez TS-9 (Tubescreamer) or Digitech Bad Monkey. The key is, we're not using them as they were originally intended.

When boosting with an OD, you're turning the "gain" or "drive" on the pedal all the way down, especially on a high-gain amp. Now I suppose if you had a really low gain amp, you might want to add some gain on the pedal. But it pushes your first tube harder and creates more gain IN THE AMP. You will definitely get more gain out of your amp by doing this. But the side benefit is that it will still sound like your amp, not some thin/fizzy/tin-can-full-of-bees sound like you're getting out of your Muff.
Paddynbob
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#14
Quote by KailM
No, a DS1 will give you shit. You need an OD pedal or a clean boost pedal. But most people playing in metal genres just use an OD pedal like an Ibanez TS-9 (Tubescreamer) or Digitech Bad Monkey. The key is, we're not using them as they were originally intended.

When boosting with an OD, you're turning the "gain" or "drive" on the pedal all the way down, especially on a high-gain amp. Now I suppose if you had a really low gain amp, you might want to add some gain on the pedal. But it pushes your first tube harder and creates more gain IN THE AMP. You will definitely get more gain out of your amp by doing this. But the side benefit is that it will still sound like your amp, not some thin/fizzy/tin-can-full-of-bees sound like you're getting out of your Muff.


would it push it to sound like the link i just posted?
Paddynbob
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#16
Quote by KailM
Yes.


Hmmmmmm... which overdrive do you think I should go for? Which is best value for money? Are there certain types that would work or do ALL overdrives work?

edit 1: Would a higher gain OD maybe work better? EG the Wylde OD? Haven't really looked into it though
Last edited by Paddynbob at Oct 20, 2012,
JesusCrisp
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#17
Try the settings shown at the end of the video and maybe work from there.
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lfcagger
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#18
TS, if you can't get a good metal sound out of your amp you are doing something wrong. I've had the HT20 for a year now and I have no problem getting a close approximation of Trivium, Machine Head, CoB or Dream Theater out of it, all of whom use high gain sounds, without any pedals. What volume do you usually use it at?
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Paddynbob
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#19
Quote by lfcagger
TS, if you can't get a good metal sound out of your amp you are doing something wrong. I've had the HT20 for a year now and I have no problem getting a close approximation of Trivium, Machine Head, CoB or Dream Theater out of it, all of whom use high gain sounds, without any pedals. What volume do you usually use it at?


maybe 12 o'clock channel, 8/9 o'clock master
Paddynbob
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#20
Quote by Way Cool JR.
The Metal Muff works great as an OD, IMO the DS-1 does not at all. The M-Muff sounds quite similar to a tube screamer when used as a boost. Plus you have an added bonus of a 3 band EQ and a little more drive on tap. I have the M-Muff and a Tube screamer and when EQd properly you really cant tell the difference A-B'ing them side by side.

So in short you already have a great pedal to use as an OD for now. I wouldn't rule out a TS though because they are great pedals to own no matter how many Dirt/Distortion pedals you own.


The GFS Greenie is a great TS Clone for a great price and is a-lot more versitile than a standard TS. Then they also have the GFS Twin Over Drive it is a TS9 & 808 basically glued together. The Ibanez TS-7 is another great one and it has a hot switch on it to get a lot more drive out of it. It is also more versatile than a standard type TS due to the hot switch. The TS-7 is discontinued so you would have to find it used.

would that not just get the sound of the metal muff?
MaaZeus
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#21
Quote by Paddynbob
would that not just get the sound of the metal muff?


No. Or yes, somewhat. He is advising you to use it differently just like a lot of people are using Tubescreamers differently than what they were originally designed for. Take distortion/drive of of your metal muff COMPLETELY OFF so you dont get Metal Muffs preamp distortion (or use very little of it as spice), and instead use it as boost (volume/level all the way up) to make your amplifiers preamp work much harder to get more dirt, usually for much better results than just relying on your pedal doing the dirt-work.


Now, listening the link I personally like the sound as it is, but then again my favourite distortion sound of all time is oldschool swedish deathmetal distortion, which technically has everything wrong. The dirtier, nastier and grittier the better is my taste.

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Last edited by MaaZeus at Oct 20, 2012,
Paddynbob
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#22
Quote by MaaZeus
No. Or yes, somewhat. He is advising you to use it differently just like a lot of people are using Tubescreamers differently than what they were originally designed for. Take distortion/drive of of your metal muff COMPLETELY OFF so you dont get Metal Muffs preamp distortion (or use very little of it as spice), and instead use it as boost (volume/level all the way up) to make your amplifiers preamp work much harder to get more dirt, usually for much better results than just relying on your pedal doing the dirt-work.


Now, listening the link I personally like the sound as it is, but then again my favourite distortion sound of all time is oldschool swedish deathmetal distortion, which technically has everything wrong. The dirtier, nastier and grittier the better is my taste.


What if the distortion control is broken? :L would taking the volume right down work?

My link or the youtube link?
MaaZeus
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#23
Quote by Paddynbob
What if the distortion control is broken? :L would taking the volume right down work?

My link or the youtube link?



The facebook link.


About the other issue... No. Distortion controls your pedals preamp and volume controls the power amp and taking the latter down would just mute the signal. Volume cranked will keep your signal clean, just louder. We dont want your pedals preamp to distort, we want your amplifiers preamp (controlled by your amplifiers gain/drive knob) to distort more. Louder the signal received by preamp, earlier it distorts as you turn gain up and more distortion/gain you have at your disposal, in nutshell.

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Last edited by MaaZeus at Oct 20, 2012,
bassmastamitch
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#28
Replace the tubes with good ones. It will make everything sound better.

The HT60 should be able to metal easily on its own. Also, I don't know how it might sound to you, but the Metal Muff is a can of bees.
Paddynbob
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#29
Quote by bassmastamitch
Replace the tubes with good ones. It will make everything sound better.

The HT60 should be able to metal easily on its own. Also, I don't know how it might sound to you, but the Metal Muff is a can of bees.


Roughly how much would a new set of tubes be? For all of them?
Paddynbob
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#31
Quote by bassmastamitch
Around $70 for a full retube with JJs.


Is the volume I'm playing at affecting the sound?
Paddynbob
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#33
Quote by bassmastamitch
It shouldn't that much. For most metal, you are just looking at preamp distortion, not power amp distortion.


I don't know what it is :S it only gets a tiny bit heavier than a DS1
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#34
Might be a faulty unit? That's weird. Maybe you're so used to the badass tone the Metal Muff gives you that everything else is obsolete
Paddynbob
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#35
Quote by bassmastamitch
Might be a faulty unit? That's weird. Maybe you're so used to the badass tone the Metal Muff gives you that everything else is obsolete


I doubt it :S
Paddynbob
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#36
Quote by bassmastamitch
Might be a faulty unit? That's weird. Maybe you're so used to the badass tone the Metal Muff gives you that everything else is obsolete


I doubt it :S
Paddynbob
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#37
Just reopening this thread a bit - could the fact that guy is getting such a heavy tone be down to the fact that he's using actives?
bobafettacheese
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#38
I have the HT20 and the LTD with actives does have a different response but not that drastic. I normally crank the gain volume to around 2 oclock and then keep the gain around 12, then adjust the master volume to taste. Adjusting either master or gain volume alters the sound I am getting. Depends on what I am after, just play with the controls. In complarison the Agiles I play do get a great distortion out of them, one has alnico II's and the other 5's. I also use a Boss SD1 for an overdrive, and like stated earlier, roll the gain off and use the volume knob. I have never had a problem with any guitar getting into metal. Best of luck.
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#39
Actives will naturally act as a slight boost due to their stronger signal.. But unless you have weak-sauce passives I doubt that is your problem

Just run a proper OD pedal as a booster and try messing with your EQ.

Forget the Muff, and if you can change out the stock tubes...do.
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Paddynbob
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#40
Quote by bobafettacheese
I have the HT20 and the LTD with actives does have a different response but not that drastic. I normally crank the gain volume to around 2 oclock and then keep the gain around 12, then adjust the master volume to taste. Adjusting either master or gain volume alters the sound I am getting. Depends on what I am after, just play with the controls. In complarison the Agiles I play do get a great distortion out of them, one has alnico II's and the other 5's. I also use a Boss SD1 for an overdrive, and like stated earlier, roll the gain off and use the volume knob. I have never had a problem with any guitar getting into metal. Best of luck.


Just read this post :P
I've started (hate me) scooping the mids a bit, and turning the presence and resonance right up, that gives me a big metal tone... I tried other ones, but the scoop is the only one i can get to sound metal on that amp