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#42
Quote by lucky1978
Is Cathbard up yet?


Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#43
WTF did I just read?

TS. Look at a used Vyper Tube 60. Let me try to explain what it is without the bs and trying to do it in a less technical way.
The preamp section at the front is an analog solid state (ie transistors) beasty that attempts to emulate several different types of amps. It doesn't do too bad a job off it really.
The power amp (the part that drives the speakers) is the same as the one you'll find in a 6505. It uses two big tubes to do the job.
There is also a 120W version which uses 4 tubes just like a proper 5150/6505 (5150 and 6505 are the same amp). Technically, there isn't a lot of difference between the two apart from the extra tubes. 60W is bloody loud, there are very few instances where you'd need more than that.

That tube power amp makes all the difference. It gives the amp a lot more warmth than the other Vypers which use a solid state power amp. There are some solid state power amps that are also quite warm and organic sounding too but Peavey don't seem very good at doing that. What Peavey do make very well are tube power amps and they've used the tube power amp design that they are most famous for - the 5150.
The other Vypers with the solid state power amps are still a good amp though, they just aren't as good as the tube ones. Not surprising, it's hard to beat a 5150 power amp.

Added to that are some digital effects built right into the amp that you can use or not at your discretion. If you have effects pedals that you prefer over what is built into the amp you can use those instead if you like.


Others are talking about the Valveking. It is an actual tube amp from start to finish but it isn't a particularly good one. They are ok but to make one perform as well as a Vyper Tube requires some modifications. They are a good way top go if you are techie minded and prepared to do some tinkering but that obviously isn't you. In stock trim from the factory the Vyper Tube will kick its arse.


Now behave the rest of you guys. Don't make me throw cats at you.


Additional. A tube amp uses these:


instead of these:


Guitar amps are about the only thing left on the planet that use tubes. It's the one field where they have survived because we want different things out of our amplifiers than other people - and tubes deliver what we need.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
Last edited by Cathbard at Nov 19, 2012,
#44
Quote by gumbilicious

i like the vypyr idea. i have been meaning to try out a super champ XD but they are discontinued right?

is it discontinued? i thought they just came out with another version of it. the store by me still has some, could be old stock though.

a couple of the "metal" voicings weren't too bad. not the best but far from the worst.

a flextone would work too, that's a good idea but it would have to be used.

i have nothing against the vypyr tube idea, i was just throwing out some other ideas.


+1 to thank the TS for including the info we need to help.
Why don't they make mouse flavored cat food?
#45
Peavey should make a 6505 power amp. If it was priced well, it would probably be really popular.
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#46
Well it just seemed to me that he needed some help getting his amp to work. It didn't seem like he had a lot of money to throw around so I figured that a can of contact cleaner could get him up and running for minimum cash outlay.

It seems that there are a lot of people who know absolutely nothing about electronics who start singing that tube mantra at the drop of a hat when they should be considering what the other guy actually needs first. Instead, they start flapping their jaws with their uninformed opinions about solid state vs tubes. Seems to me they sit there just like trolls waiting for the topic to come up and then they pounce. It's silly and they should stop it.
It's about like asking an accountant about your car engine or worse yet having an accountant try to tell an automotive engineer about car engines.

Someone said I have and agenda and indeed I do, first is to help those in need of it with their electrical gear, then to cure ignorance and stop the stupidity if at all possible.

Quote by gumbilicious
+1

this part is pretty dead on. it's a bit dense, but dead on.

i think it just looks like you're trying really hard in a 'what amp' thread. it's bugging people a bit.

these long term guys are not trolls, we have just been around to see what advice is usually needed where. most of these "i am a guy who doesn't need to know much more than what is the next amp i should get" usually don't need a bunch of technical advice.


i like the vypyr idea. i have been meaning to try out a super champ XD but they are discontinued right?

i will also say i use free software when i am on the road. just plug the guitar into the computer and play out my computer speakers. it is an option anyway.
#47
Actually I used to really love tubes once upon a time. It was the smooth glass envelops that seems mysterious to me that got me intrigued and into electronics at a very early age.

However the insides of tube gear is typically like a warm oven and it's bad over the long haul for all the stuff around it. The tubes themselves go bad and even the insulation on the circuit wiring drys out and crumbles over time, next it's bad on many of the caps used. Tubes are also inefficient and it's difficult to build cost effective truly linear amps with the things. I've been inside of and even designed more tube gear than any of you can possibly fathom. I don't hate tubes, I just know that there is better stuff out there to use for building amps with.

If you guys knew anything about power FETs then you'd know that they operate a lot like tubes do. It's just that you can just do it without the distortion that you typically have to settle for with tubes or put up with the heat, inefficiently and unreliability, and the insane cost I might add.

Quote by R45VT
Why even bother? Guy clearly has an agenda and his mind made up. He hates tubes as they get hot and cook hotdogs that are placed to close to the amp.

Maybe he had a bad experience with a "mean" tube amp when he was a kid and it scared him for life.

Anyway tubes do get warm but a properly designed amp accounts for the heat. No biggie...
#48
Quote by Dick Foster
Actually I used to really love tubes once upon a time. It was the smooth glass envelops that seems mysterious to me that got me intrigued and into electronics at a very early age.

However the insides of tube gear is typically like a warm oven and it's bad over the long haul for all the stuff around it. The tubes themselves go bad and even the insulation on the circuit wiring drys out and crumbles over time, next it's bad on many of the caps used. Tubes are also inefficient and it's difficult to build cost effective truly linear amps with the things. I've been inside of and even designed more tube gear than any of you can possibly fathom. I don't hate tubes, I just know that there is better stuff out there to use for building amps with.

If you guys knew anything about power FETs then you'd know that they operate a lot like tubes do. It's just that you can just do it without the distortion that you typically have to settle for with tubes or put up with the heat, inefficiently and unreliability, and the insane cost I might add.


Buddy not everyone here is a troll.

Some of us do know about FETs and don't care about them in guitar application. Yes they do have their place. I can say nothing sounds as rich as a class A amplifier. There are good SS amps out there, bulk of them are cheap garbage.

Tubes do go bad and sometimes they take a whole piece of the amp with them, the PT, bias circuitry, etc.

Keep in mind SS amps clip, tube have saturation. One is desirable and the other isn't. SS also have heat. Please don't act like they don't. Heat is even more critical in SS one could argue. It all comes down to design and thus not even a fair comparison. Its your biased opinion.

You seem to be intelligent and able to add some other points of views. If you come across as biased as you do then your point turns to a big fat turd no one wants to look at.


TS- go to a guitar store and play a few new ones. Then find used one within your budget. The Vypyr 30 or 60 are great. Try for the 60.

A modeling amp will be the most versatile. Vypyr, Vox whatever, Fender mustang, etc.

Hell you may even find you want a device dedicated more for recording like the POD HD or XT.
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
See, it's important that people clarify when they say "metal", because I pretty much always assume they are a Cannibal Corpse fanboi.
Last edited by R45VT at Nov 19, 2012,
#49
Dick,

I asked you yesterday to chill out. When I go back and read through the thread as if it were for the first time, you are the only one coming across like the uneducated troll that you claim most of us are

Posts 14, 18 and 22 are good examples. In post 28 you make this claim that we all jumped on some kind of tube bandwagon. Look at most of amp recommendations to that point. In post #30 you said there are a hell of lot of trolls in here with empty left brains. Then in post 39 you attack Arby911 in saying that his opinion is like a butthole. Arby is a well respected member here who provides sound technical advice almost daily here. In post 46 you say we know nothing about electronics and that we are all singing the tube mantra and stirring up some kind of tube vs ss debate.

Take a second look back please.

I for one am not a technical expert and know very little about electronics. I've also owned a Frontman, Vypyr, GDEG and Valveking. I've played the SuperChamp and most of the other amps mentioned so far. The Frontman is just not a good amp. Period. There is nothing you can do to fix that. Especially the little 15 watt practice amp.

The guy came here for amp advice. He wants a new amp. He said it sucks and it is dying. The title even says 'I need a new amp'. He followed the stickied suggestions on how to create a good 'What Amp?' thread. You are the one derailing here.

What amp do you suggest for the TS (Threadstarter)?

again.....Chill out dude.
Last edited by 311ZOSOVHJH at Nov 19, 2012,
#50
Yeah tubes have survived in guitar world for all these years because we are all a bunch of ****ing idiots. I was around when MOSFET's first appeared and were touted as being as good as tubes. The Marshall MOSFET amp was going to conquer all and nobody would ever need another tube amp ever again.
That's what we call a fail. What amp is sought after from that era? The JCM800 2203, not the MOSFET lead. But I guess that's just because we are all ****ing idiots.

And just to illustrate it - who the **** needs or even wants a truly linear guitar amp? How is that even relevant? Fender tried going down that path with their ultra linear amps. You know what? Those are the Fenders nobody wants - we all want the old non-linear blackfaces. You know why? Because they sound better and work better for guitar.
FETs may be better for making dead clean reference amps for hifi but how is that relevant to guitar amps? Why even bring it up?
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#51
Go to Guitar Center and search on used amp high $ to low $. The '57 Fender Twin in Tweed is the first to pop up at $35,000. There is a reason for that.

I'm not a tube snob either. I've already listed some of the amps I've owned and I currently love my Vypyr 60. My Pod Farm software is really cool too. The Axe FX and Kemper amps are the pinnacle of where digital technology and non-tube technology have come.

Get out of our back yard.


#52
And the cats are coming...
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
See, it's important that people clarify when they say "metal", because I pretty much always assume they are a Cannibal Corpse fanboi.
#53
The only reason I haven't unleashed the cats is that the TS isn't the one being a douche.

Now lets all go out and buy sterile linear SS amps. Hell, if that's what the aim of the game is maybe we should all just plug our guitars directly into the PA. Who needs dynamic reponse to our playing - what we need are dead clean linear amps. Nobody wants amps that talk to them and distort.
Glad that's been cleared up. And to think I've been wasting all my time building dynamic amps that respond to picking with different, almost unpredictable levels of distortion - I should be building hifi amps and selling them as guitar amps. Who knew?
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#54
Quote by Dick Foster
Actually I used to really love tubes once upon a time. It was the smooth glass envelops that seems mysterious to me that got me intrigued and into electronics at a very early age.

However the insides of tube gear is typically like a warm oven and it's bad over the long haul for all the stuff around it. The tubes themselves go bad and even the insulation on the circuit wiring drys out and crumbles over time, next it's bad on many of the caps used. Tubes are also inefficient and it's difficult to build cost effective truly linear amps with the things. I've been inside of and even designed more tube gear than any of you can possibly fathom. I don't hate tubes, I just know that there is better stuff out there to use for building amps with.

If you guys knew anything about power FETs then you'd know that they operate a lot like tubes do. It's just that you can just do it without the distortion that you typically have to settle for with tubes or put up with the heat, inefficiently and unreliability, and the insane cost I might add.


Friend, you can't swing a cat without hitting an electrical engineer around here, I'd be careful about bragging about your expertise, especially given that you don't appear to understand why guitarists often prefer tube amps.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#55
TS - sorry about your thread. try the vypyr, see if you can find a super champ XD to try, let us know how your search goes. if you have any questions about stuff let us know.

Why don't they make mouse flavored cat food?
#56
Quote by gregs1020
TS - sorry about your thread. try the vypyr, see if you can find a super champ XD to try, let us know how your search goes. if you have any questions about stuff let us know.


+1
Quote by Cathbard
Quote by Raijouta
Unless its electronic drums.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
#57
I understand perfectly why they think they like tubes. They actually prefer even harmonic distortion for the most part. They may even like them but the point is you can do anything with good solid state designs that you can do with tubes and more while enjoying all the other benefits too.

I only mentioned my past tube experience because some seemed to jump to the conclusion that I don't know squat about tubes when actually I do. Fact is I don't prefer tubes because I do know about them and about solid state as well.
Having knowledge and experience in something is not bragging and I'm not about to start apologizing to a bunch of snot noses for not being ignorant or stupid. Only a complete looser would brag about being ignorant or worse yet stupid. Only a selfish asshole would not use what they have to help others.

Actually I think you're likely to find that all the big tube fans are only into music that requires tons of distortion and I've never been a fan of uncontrolled distortion and I never will be. I'm not against all distortion either but I only want it there when I can choose the flavor and put it there and in the amounts I want to add and no more. You can't do that with tubes, rather you can't do it affordability anyway.

Honestly if they'd stay mum with that "get a tube" crap every time anyone mentions a solid-state amp of any kind or even an amp of any kind, I wouldn't say anything. But they just can't keep there yaps shut. Hell I'd probably even try to help them too. I'm just sick and tired of solid state getting a bad rap from a bunch of know nothings clinging to an obsolete technology because apparently they can't keep up or do what it takes to understand. I want to see the equipment available to all of us evolve not devolve. All anyone is doing here is delaying the inevitable so lets stop going backward and go forward for a friggin change.

I used to be friends with, rather worked with a couple of guys who designed and built amps for Carlos Santana, way back when. They thought the whole tube thing was really kinda stupid and finally got out of the field altogether. I thought it rather humorous then but I see that it's still going on. It's pretty silly really.

BTW you may be using the term guitarists rather loosely here as in all inclusive. I doubt that is the case.


Quote by Arby911
Friend, you can't swing a cat without hitting an electrical engineer around here, I'd be careful about bragging about your expertise, especially given that you don't appear to understand why guitarists often prefer tube amps.
#58
Dude you can rant all you want but at the end of the day tubes are the industry standard and have been for a long time after transistors became available. Sorry but your little tantrums here aren't going to change the facts. How many boutique solid state builders are there out there?

It sounds like you're a clean jazz player, in which case solid state may be a better choice for you, but to act like the only reason guitarists use tubes is a lack of knowledge just shows how ignorant you are.

Can you stop spewing bullshit and just let us help the TS find an amp? You haven't even made a recommendation yet, just argued. I'm reporting your post.
Quote by Cathbard
Quote by Raijouta
Unless its electronic drums.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
Last edited by tubetime86 at Nov 20, 2012,
#59
Dick,

I will address a couple points in your post:

Your point about people only liking tube amps for distortion is just nonsensical. There is a vast collection of guitarists who want tube cleans, thus why Fender still makes a large number of tube amps. I for one like tube distortion but I equally enjoy a good tube clean.

Delaying the inevitable you say? Well not really, most of us on this forum are very supportive of digital technology being integrated into more traditional solid-state circuits, but typical discrete circuits such as the ones you are describing are not exactly "new" technology themselves. Most of the members here except that a well designed digital unit can sound very very close to tube amps, if not exactly, but those units can be pricey when compared with a traditional tube amp.

Your last point is anecdotal and moot.

Oh, and despite what you say, a traditional, non-digital amp cannot reproduce the sound of a tube amp. Can't. Doesn't mean that solid-state amps don't have their place, but they cannot sound like tube amps, and shouldn't try.
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
#60
Quote by Dick Foster
I understand perfectly why they think they like tubes. They actually prefer even harmonic distortion for the most part. They may even like them but the point is you can do anything with good solid state designs that you can do with tubes and more while enjoying all the other benefits too.

I only mentioned my past tube experience because some seemed to jump to the conclusion that I don't know squat about tubes when actually I do. Fact is I don't prefer tubes because I do know about them and about solid state as well.
Having knowledge and experience in something is not bragging and I'm not about to start apologizing to a bunch of snot noses for not being ignorant or stupid. Only a complete looser would brag about being ignorant or worse yet stupid. Only a selfish asshole would not use what they have to help others.

Actually I think you're likely to find that all the big tube fans are only into music that requires tons of distortion and I've never been a fan of uncontrolled distortion and I never will be. I'm not against all distortion either but I only want it there when I can choose the flavor and put it there and in the amounts I want to add and no more. You can't do that with tubes, rather you can't do it affordability anyway.

Honestly if they'd stay mum with that "get a tube" crap every time anyone mentions a solid-state amp of any kind or even an amp of any kind, I wouldn't say anything. But they just can't keep there yaps shut. Hell I'd probably even try to help them too. I'm just sick and tired of solid state getting a bad rap from a bunch of know nothings clinging to an obsolete technology because apparently they can't keep up or do what it takes to understand. I want to see the equipment available to all of us evolve not devolve. All anyone is doing here is delaying the inevitable so lets stop going backward and go forward for a friggin change.

I used to be friends with, rather worked with a couple of guys who designed and built amps for Carlos Santana, way back when. They thought the whole tube thing was really kinda stupid and finally got out of the field altogether. I thought it rather humorous then but I see that it's still going on. It's pretty silly really.

BTW you may be using the term guitarists rather loosely here as in all inclusive. I doubt that is the case.


It's pretty obvious you feel that you are smarter, have more knowledge etc. than the rest of us here.

That's fine, whatever helps you get through the day.

I'll be moving on now, because your ill-informed and misguided inferences, insults and general 'I'm right, you're all idiots' attitude holds no interest for me.

Frankly I'm surprised you continue to bother with us, given our obvious intellectual deficiencies?

Feel free to continue on though if it pleases you, it's at least fun to watch, in a 'train wreck' sort of way.

“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#61
I didn't say everyone here was a troll but if you're not asked and you jump in with that "only tubes are good" crap when anyone mentions an amp, then in my estimation, you're trolling.

In the case of crappy amps, we should all put pressure on the makers to make better amps. I'm quite sure there are also plenty of tube amps out there that are pure crap too. However, just because they use tubes doesn't automatically classify them as good or even desirable.

Not all solid state amps clip (saturate) either, only poorly designed ones or those built like crap do. Not unless you made it to clip, say up front in a distortion adding (fuzz/overdrive) circuit.

Of course heat is a by product with anything, there is no such thing as 100% efficient but solid state devices don't begin with heat as tubes do. Everything heats as a by product of conduction, even wire heats. However, decent power FETs don't heat nearly as much due to the typically low Ron.

Bipolar gets hotter due to the constant voltage drop so the more current you push though it, naturally the hotter it gets. But if you use good thermal design practice and keep to the datasheet specs, you should be good to go. If you're an engineer, should know that much.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, but that's no reason to starve the rest of the herd.

In my mind, a good amp should simply amplify and not add anything that you don't intentionally put there. That's the mark of a good amp. Sine in - sine out, fundamental in - fundamental out and nothing else that you don't add. Good or bad, desirable to some or not, distortion is still distortion.

In my estimation what a lot of people hear that they don't like with many modeling amps out there is not due to the amp itself likely the extremely crappy patches that the makers loaded in there. Some of em, most actually, are pretty nasty to even to my old ears. Ewwwww. There were maybe two patches in my Vetta that I could even tolerate without diving in and twiddling. It's some pretty horrible stuff but it can also sound pretty nice with reasonably clean patch.

Quote by R45VT
Buddy not everyone here is a troll.

Some of us do know about FETs and don't care about them in guitar application. Yes they do have their place. I can say nothing sounds as rich as a class A amplifier. There are good SS amps out there, bulk of them are cheap garbage.

Tubes do go bad and sometimes they take a whole piece of the amp with them, the PT, bias circuitry, etc.

Keep in mind SS amps clip, tube have saturation. One is desirable and the other isn't. SS also have heat. Please don't act like they don't. Heat is even more critical in SS one could argue. It all comes down to design and thus not even a fair comparison. Its your biased opinion.

You seem to be intelligent and able to add some other points of views. If you come across as biased as you do then your point turns to a big fat turd no one wants to look at.


TS- go to a guitar store and play a few new ones. Then find used one within your budget. The Vypyr 30 or 60 are great. Try for the 60.

A modeling amp will be the most versatile. Vypyr, Vox whatever, Fender mustang, etc.

Hell you may even find you want a device dedicated more for recording like the POD HD or XT.
Last edited by Dick Foster at Nov 20, 2012,
#62
bzzt wrong. a guitar amplifier is supposed to distort.

however for your application, there is no reason whatsoever for you to be even buying guitar amps.

if you believe they aren't supposed to distort then you should be running a hifi amp.

easy peasy.
buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo.
#64
Hold on guys, grandpa is still 15 posts behind.
Quote by Cathbard
Quote by Raijouta
Unless its electronic drums.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
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