#1
Peavey Blue Marvel & Sheffield speakers: Opinions?

I have two Fender amps which I've made into heads and I currently play them through JBLs. The JBLs, while spectacular, are extremely efficient (102 and 104 db) and thus very loud. The Peaveys mentioned above are extremely inefficient (96 & 97 db) and it seems like I could crank up the volume knob quite a bit more as I like tube break up big time. I don't use any effects so power tube breakup is my sole goal.

I'm thinking that Blue Marvels and/or Sheffields would be good for small rooms. However, I have no idea what they sound like. I'm pretty sure that they won't be as crisp as the JBLs but almost no speakers are so I'm not worried about that. They have a decent frequency range and can be gotten very cheaply so they're an attractive prospect, at least on paper.

I have a 2x12 cab and can get both a Sheffield and a Blue Marvel (each 12"/16 ohms) for $40 locally. My cab is currently housing two JBLs which would be good for Yankee Stadium but it's pure overkill most anywhere else I'm liable to play. If I have to get loud, loud, I have a 1x12 with the same type JBL which does the job well. How would an 8 ohm Blue Marvel/Sheffield 2x12 be?

Does anyone here have any opinions about them? Do they sound thin?Dark? Heavy? Tinny? Flabby in the bass? Anything good or bad to look out for? Yay? Nay?

Thanks!
#2
exactly what amp are we talking about. going with less efficient speakers doesn't seem like a good plan to me. perhaps you need a lower wattage amp that can be cranked and not be quite as loud. for the record i do like sheffields and have had them in a couple of amps i've owned over the years. my Ultra 212 has them and they sound good to me. of course i play more high gain stuff so i dunno how good they are under the circumstances you mentioned. crazy idea but have you thought about an overdrive pedal perhaps?
#3
I appreciate your comments on the Sheffields. So they're ok, then?

Regarding my plan and your other questions:

I have a 135 watt Twin running on two tubes so I guess it'd be 67.5 watts (?) and a Champ 25 SE (2 6L6s/25 watts.)

I always use a Behringer MIC200 tube preamp on the neutral setting which gets me in the right neighborhood, soundwise but, still, those amps get loud when cranked, especially the Twin. The Champ is great but, turned up, it's just a bit to loud for band volumes. The Twin sounds wonderfully friggin' monstrous cranked up but it's just sooo damned loud. Any volume drop for ither would be a step in the right direction. I want to turn up the volume on both without getting more volume, only more power tube breakup.

What's not good about going from really efficient speakers to really inefficient ones to do so? We're talking at least a 5 db difference here which I know will be very noticeable.

Regarding overdrive pedals:

I want plain ol' power tube breakup and I haven't come across any pedals that do a dimed tube amp tone as well as a dimed tube amp does. I especially like that of a cranked 6L6 Fender. I've tried a bunch of pedals over the years and the sound has always been different, sometimes slightly and, sometimes, a whole lot.
Last edited by woad_yurt at Nov 23, 2012,
#4
perhaps a power soak or the like would work for you. bottom line is that if you want the power tube sound then loud comes with the territory. dude a twin is known for keeping it's clean sound until you push it way hard, doesn't seem like the ideal amp for what you want at all.
#6
The Twin is like having a nitrous bottle in the trunk. It's not for every day but it's comfortable knowing it's there. The Champ, on the other hand, is more in the reasonable area. Actually, when run on the clean channel, and through the same bottom, it sounds kinda like the Twin but with less power.

That said, I'm not considering new amps, pedals, or whatever. I'm just asking about those two Peavey speakers. Any opinions on them?
#7
IMO they're both pretty bland and characterless tone-wise. I don't think I've ever played thru a JBL speaker but from everything I've read they're lightyears ahead of Peavey's speakers tone-wise.

Granted for $40 they'd be a pretty good deal, but I just have to think that going from JBLs to cheap Peavey speakers is quite a downgrade. Do you think you could save up some more money, and do a bit of research on some of Celestion's or Eminence's lower-sensitivity speakers? I'd almost bet you'd be happier with the tone if you went that route rather than settling for a Blue Marvel or Sheffield.

Some possible options that I found with just a quick scan of those mfg's websites: Celestion Heritage G1265 - 97 dB; G12M65 Creamback - 97 dB; or G12T75 - also 97 dB.
Eminence has the Texas Heat - 99dB, and the Reignmaker - 98.7 dB, but I've heard somewhere that they aren't as conservative with their ratings as Celestion. That might be something to research further.

Those are some other options you can add to the mix. Ultimately, your ears are the guide here. Of course it's not always possible to try speakers before you buy, but if you get the opportunity to compare various speakers/cabs firsthand before you buy something, that would be the best course of action. Good luck!
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#8
the eminence FDM or whatever goes from 91 (about lower than any speaker) to 100 SPL, higher on the spectrum.

thats a DRASTIC range, 9 DB. massive. problems are in a 2x12, you need to ensure they are fairly equal settings and they are also about 150 a pop.

___________

i disagree, speakers can easily have as much affect on volume than wattage, probably moreso. he does have the right idea.

however, they will only help get you breakup, not cause it on their own. i mean 100 to 97 SPL will help, but some old school speakers go down to 93-95. thats gonna get you a nice effect. 97 is fairly normal.

try looking at some jensens or something
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#9
The sheffield in my old 6505 was ok. I wouldn't say it was flabby, in fact I thought it was very tight. Not super great in the bass area, and kind of bright, but it got the job done. It was better at low volumes than the Eminence Lynch Super V12 I put in there.

My only experience with the Blue Marvel is in my Vypyr 30, and I find it to be seriously lacking the bass department, and I mean seriously lacking. I closed the back to increase the bass response, and it helped a little, and I run an EQ in front of it, but it's still not where I feel it should be. But that could be because of the modeller amp too, I have no idea.
#10
....they will only help get you breakup, not cause it on their own.


That's exactly what I want. I'm going from 102 or 104 db to 95-97 db so it should be very noticeable. I have one Eminence speaker rated at 98 db and even that 4 db difference is quite a bit. I'd use that speaker but it's 8 ohm, which is what I need in total. It makes a good 1x12 but these two 16 ohm Peaveys would give me an 8 ohm 2x12. The cabinet, btw, gives a nice, strong bass. It's big and is open-backed but only about 30% (max) of the back is open.

Note: Regarding overall quality, I don't expect Peavey speakers to ring out or thump like the JBLs; I'm realistic. But, if I can turn up a notch or two further, I'll be good. I'll trade away a little clarity for a little more raucousness. I wish I could afford some old Altecs. They have astounding fidelity but some of them were nicely inefficient as well. $300 each, though....
Last edited by woad_yurt at Nov 23, 2012,
#11
Just get an attenuator. I feel like you would benefit more with that then a speaker change.

Though, I wish I could crank a twin at my place.
#12
Ok, I'm kind of a ignorant when it comes to this stuff so please don't attack me for that, but what about a pot-in-a-box style of attenuator in the FX loop? Super cheap way to get tube break-up.
#13
I think that attenuator would just get preamp breakup. But, I am not sure. I thought your signal goes through the preamp, out the effects loop, and then in again behind the power amp. which is the type of sound he wants

Any of that can be wrong, but I think its right.
#14
I looked at attenuators and they were expensive. Lots of folks have said that they somewhat dulled the treble end, some units more than others. There's one guaranteed to not dull one's tone, an Iron Man, I think, but it was like $700-$800 or so. Anyway, the Champ is already fairly close to where I want it tobe so, for $40, I'll give this a whirl. I suspect that my Twin may be able to sound to the way I'd like, too, in a big enough place, without making people squirm too badly.
Last edited by woad_yurt at Nov 23, 2012,
#15
Quote by nickdohle
I think that attenuator would just get preamp breakup. But, I am not sure. I thought your signal goes through the preamp, out the effects loop, and then in again behind the power amp. which is the type of sound he wants

Any of that can be wrong, but I think its right.

No, the attenuator would be after the preamp and before the power amp. So it would only reduce the signal from the preamp, so it shouldn't affect the preamp at all. Unless I'm missing something
#16
I'm going to pick up the speakers before work today. I'll install them tonight and will report back.
#17
Quote by W4RP1G
No, the attenuator would be after the preamp and before the power amp. So it would only reduce the signal from the preamp, so it shouldn't affect the preamp at all. Unless I'm missing something


The Effects Loop is between the Preamp and Poweramp. What you're doing is basically putting in a Master Volume. You're letting the Preamp get nice and cooking, then you're reducing that signal before it gets to the Power section. In order to attenuate the Power tubes, you have to have something between your head and speaker cabinet.

For a Non-MV amp that has an effects loop, this would allow you to get Preamp Distortion at lower volumes, but not Power Amp.

TS, Have you looked into the the Eminence Reignmaker or Eminence Maverick? They are what ikey_ was talking about. The Maverick is the more drastic of the two. I realize you've already bought the Peavey speakers, but in case they aren't what you want, this might be enough attenuation.
#18
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/jensen-mod12-35-35w-12-replacement-speaker
The Jensen Mods are awesome, and this would be perfect for the champ at 96.5 dB sensitivity. And it's only 40 bucks

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/jensen-mod12-70-70w-12-replacement-speaker
The 70 watt version for the twin is 65 bucks and has 97.5 sensitivity. So that would be a little extra cash. I have the 35 watt and it's been great. Super clear and a focused bass.
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#19
Quote by Blktiger0
The Effects Loop is between the Preamp and Poweramp. What you're doing is basically putting in a Master Volume. You're letting the Preamp get nice and cooking, then you're reducing that signal before it gets to the Power section. In order to attenuate the Power tubes, you have to have something between your head and speaker cabinet.

For a Non-MV amp that has an effects loop, this would allow you to get Preamp Distortion at lower volumes, but not Power Amp.

TS, Have you looked into the the Eminence Reignmaker or Eminence Maverick? They are what ikey_ was talking about. The Maverick is the more drastic of the two. I realize you've already bought the Peavey speakers, but in case they aren't what you want, this might be enough attenuation.

I'm not really sure exactly how an amp works, but if I reduce the signal going to the power section, and then I turn up the master volume(which I'm assuming is the output from the power section), how am I not increasing the voltage to the power tubes?

And I know the FX loop is between the preamp and power amp, I already said that.
#20
I got home with the speakers, installed them and have been playing through them for like 40 minutes. What a difference with the new speakers! The sound of that Twin kicks some serious ass when you can turn it up some without pain! Yeah, they don't have the clarity of the JBLs but they don't cause the ear pain, either.

My Twin Reverb Tube Breakup at Bearable Volumes Recipe:

Yank two of the power tubes, use lower efficiency speakers and add an additional tube preamp. I've been in here playing blaring rock and roll sounding like a pissed off & drunk Link Wray on steroids and nobody called the cops! I can play this thing at band volume now. Holy crap!

Tas38:
I did go to Jensen's site to look at those Mod 12-35s. They're actually rated at only 93.7 db sensitivity (even better!) When I do get some cash together, they're going into an 8 ohm 4x12. Until then, though, this new set up is pretty cool. Thanks for the recommendation. I have a goal.

PS Of the two, the Sheffield does sound a little better than the Blue Marvel but I'm still frickin' thrilled.
Last edited by woad_yurt at Nov 24, 2012,
#22
Interesting Musiciansfriend has different stats, I would probably believe Jensen though. From the horses mouth so to speak. Anyway, glad you're happy!
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#23
Quote by W4RP1G
I'm not really sure exactly how an amp works, but if I reduce the signal going to the power section, and then I turn up the master volume(which I'm assuming is the output from the power section), how am I not increasing the voltage to the power tubes?

And I know the FX loop is between the preamp and power amp, I already said that.


The Master Volume is before the Power section, not after it.
#24
Quote by Blktiger0
The Master Volume is before the Power section, not after it.

Then what controls the power section?
Last edited by W4RP1G at Nov 25, 2012,
#25
Quote by W4RP1G
Then what controls the power section?


What do you mean? The Master Volume does. It keeps you from feeding the same amount of signal into your Power section that you are getting from your Preamp section, letting you get high-gain at low volumes. Your Gain knob could just as easily be called "Preamp Volume" and your Master Volume "Power Section Volume". In fact, a lot of amps call them "Pregain" and "Post Gain" or something quite similar. You're basically controlling the amount of signal going into each section of your amp, whereas with Non-MV amps, your Preamp and Power Section were both being fed the same amount of signal. It's not like the tubes are running full-blast until you stick a volume after them to attenuate the signal. A simple pot wouldn't work after the Power section, which is why you don't see them installed on every amp to let you control the amount of Gain for each section of tubes. That's why they sell attenuators.
Last edited by Blktiger0 at Nov 25, 2012,
#26
It seems you have a lot of what you are aiming for so this post is probably too late.

When you double the number of speakers you get 3dB extra sensitivity, so if you use a 4x12 thats 6dB and your 96dB drivers are in a cab that is now 102 dB. Why not run into a cab with a single speaker. If you used a single JBL you'd retain the tone you like but at 3dB lower output. Using a single speaker will also improve the radiating pattern of the cab so you will hear yourself better and the audience will hear a better balance. It is win win.

Actually you are in a great position. If you are spending potentially $40 each on a 4x12 then you could spend $160 on a single boutique speaker and get a real quality unit that sounds great knowing it will be loud enough for your needs.
#27
I think Eminences would be a much better bet. I recently installed a 10" Rajun Cajun in my Fender Frontman 25R combo and the difference in both sound and volume is amazing. The amp now, can play at high volumes without breaking up and the clarity especially on the mids and treble, is astonishing. The Gain now sounds like something that you can use for Blues and Classic Rock without that muddiness. The difference in volume is also quite noticeable as well.
#28
When you double the number of speakers you get 3dB extra sensitivity


Crap! Is this really true? I never heard/knew this.
#29
Quote by woad_yurt
Crap! Is this really true? I never heard/knew this.

yes it is true.
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#30
Wow. I can get even more with only one speaker....

Still, I started out at w/ 2 at 102 db sensitivity and now have 2 at 96-97 so there's a big difference. If I had one really inefficient, say, 100 watt 8 ohm 12, I may be able to drop the tube preamp from the mix & use only the amp.
#31
The pre amp won't make the ultimate volume any greater, it will increase your gain and give you a greater range of tones.

If you have the output on your guitar right up then even without your pre amp if you gradually turn up your volume and gain on the amp then it will reach a stage where turning up louder won't change the volume any more, though it may give you more overdrive tone. if you have a 50W amp then it will only give 50W whatever you drive it with and whatever setting you have on your controls, hence the 'this one goes to 11'.

Since you can easily achieve the volume you need just decide on the sensitivity that suits you best then listen to speakers that match that and choose the one with the best tone. Eminence and Celestion have tone clips on their web sites.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY
Last edited by Phil Starr at Nov 26, 2012,
#32
Quote by Blktiger0
What do you mean? The Master Volume does. It keeps you from feeding the same amount of signal into your Power section that you are getting from your Preamp section, letting you get high-gain at low volumes. Your Gain knob could just as easily be called "Preamp Volume" and your Master Volume "Power Section Volume". In fact, a lot of amps call them "Pregain" and "Post Gain" or something quite similar. You're basically controlling the amount of signal going into each section of your amp, whereas with Non-MV amps, your Preamp and Power Section were both being fed the same amount of signal. It's not like the tubes are running full-blast until you stick a volume after them to attenuate the signal. A simple pot wouldn't work after the Power section, which is why you don't see them installed on every amp to let you control the amount of Gain for each section of tubes. That's why they sell attenuators.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. I think I have some research to do so I fully understand how amps operate.
#33
Quote by W4RP1G
Ah, thanks for clearing that up. I think I have some research to do so I fully understand how amps operate.



Look in the owners manual of amps for the block diagram. It will help you understand how an amp is set up. Not all owners manual have that. Its great for a quick glance to see how the overall layout of the amp is. Any further and you need a schematic.




And you can compare that to a snippet of the schematic on this page...

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1534810&page=1&highlight=blue+voodoo+for+us+cheap
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Last edited by R45VT at Nov 26, 2012,