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Emenius Sleepus
Blaze above the ashes
Join date: Mar 2003
1,005 IQ
#81
Hah; I personally don't really care who likes what, whether it's a Britney Spears/August Burns Red mashup on high rotation or liquefying Mozart's piano books and injecting them into their eyeball for that transcendental, "YOU CAN LITERALLY SEE THE NOTES" experience.

A joke or not, that article simply outlined everything that I dislike about "Deathcore" in all its incarnations. I don't find it interesting in the slightest, and such an article as posted didn't convince me, neither did the countless attempts I gave to a number of artists.

However, if someone genuinely enjoys that shit because the music clicks with them and inspires their imagination and brings out a strong emotional response, rather than because "IT"S HEVVVY AND I CAN TWO-STEP TO IT", then it's done the job. Music is an associative medium and feel usually trumps theory/technique. The rest is a bonus.

"Национальный танец русских - это на ваших ебаных могилах".
KULTURKAMPF
lastFM
ChemicalFire
King of Bacon Pancakes
Join date: Oct 2007
5,773 IQ
#82
Quote by Emenius Sleepus
Hah; I personally don't really care who likes what, whether it's a Britney Spears/August Burns Red mashup on high rotation or liquefying Mozart's piano books and injecting them into their eyeball for that transcendental, "YOU CAN LITERALLY SEE THE NOTES" experience.

A joke or not, that article simply outlined everything that I dislike about "Deathcore" in all its incarnations. I don't find it interesting in the slightest, and such an article as posted didn't convince me, neither did the countless attempts I gave to a number of artists.

However, if someone genuinely enjoys that shit because the music clicks with them and inspires their imagination and brings out a strong emotional response, rather than because "IT"S HEVVVY AND I CAN TWO-STEP TO IT", then it's done the job. Music is an associative medium and feel usually trumps theory/technique. The rest is a bonus.


This however I CAN back.
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
Magero
Nothing to say, Bats?
Join date: May 2006
4,528 IQ
#83
Yeah, go with what Alexei said. That's my argument in a nutshell. The idea that using these techniques = better songwriting, when the aesthetic element is still as impenetrable and convoluted as concrete octopus, is just bizarre to me. BUT THAT'S JUST LIKE MY OPINION MANNNNNNNNNN
boratian
UG Member
Join date: May 2009
900 IQ
#84
Quote by Magero
Yeah, go with what Alexei said. That's my argument in a nutshell. The idea that using these techniques = better songwriting, when the aesthetic element is still as impenetrable and convoluted as concrete octopus, is just bizarre to me. BUT THAT'S JUST LIKE MY OPINION MANNNNNNNNNN


No that's pretty much a fact for anyone without their head up their theory infested ass
Music must be honest to be timeless.
Morphogenesis26
UG Nerd
Join date: Apr 2011
468 IQ
#85
Here's what it comes down to:

My concrete octopus is better than your concrete octopus because my concrete octopus was crafted with plado tools and your concrete octopus was crafted with jello tools. Obviously, my concrete octopus is better because it's tools are far more sophisticated than your plebeian jello tools.
Magero
Nothing to say, Bats?
Join date: May 2006
4,528 IQ
#86
Which of course makes no difference when the guy from the local planning department comes to your house and says "Mate, it doesn't matter what you sculpted it with, it's an eyesore, get it off this land."
Morphogenesis26
UG Nerd
Join date: Apr 2011
468 IQ
#87
Quote by Magero
Which of course makes no difference when the guy from the local planning department comes to your house and says "Mate, it doesn't matter what you sculpted it with, it's an eyesore, get it off this land."


Bingo.
Geldin
Registered User
Join date: Sep 2008
1,677 IQ
#88
Quote by Magero
Which of course makes no difference when the guy from the local planning department comes to your house and says "Mate, it doesn't matter what you sculpted it with, it's an eyesore, get it off this land."

This might be the only thing that ever needs be said about theory. It can be as convoluted as you like it, but I still like my faggy four chord pop songs and my breakdown riffs and my BTBAM pseudo-prog kitchen sink music. Now go be superior somewhere else.
Sanitarium91
Night Dreamer
Join date: Oct 2006
1,591 IQ
#89
Ignorance is bliss and all.

And I'm not saying this in a dis-respective tone at all. Or that I'm somehow "higher", because I'm not. But it's just that that's how it is. The more you spend time analyzing and studying music, the more you start to notice it's flaws, and it's very common that amateur's simply put off any criticism for songwriting by adhering to the thought that "if I like it, it must be good". That's honestly essentially where I am, too. But I realize and notice that if I keep studying music, my perception of it changes. Kinda like, music being such a big mystery and suddenly you see something in the mist. I'm still at such a novice level that I don't go around pretending to be a top notch music critic just because I have discovered that there is some (albeit seemingly more than many of you appear to think/albeit, in my humble opinion, less than what Steve seems to think) truth to criticism through analysis. And I hope I'll never do that. And I doubt Steve is there either. He's just aware of it, and acts like he's there and apparently gets a kick out of it somehow. Maybe he has a bit more extreme view on it than I do, too. Then again, maybe Steve is a prodigy and hears music like a savant or some shit, **** do I know.
Last edited by Sanitarium91 at Dec 18, 2012,
ChemicalFire
King of Bacon Pancakes
Join date: Oct 2007
5,773 IQ
#90
There is definitely a line between the objective and the subjective, I've always known that I subjectively enjoy objectively simply and crappy music. Such as Emmure.

The song writing is beyond simple and doesn't really do anything. But I like it anyway.

D'ya see what I mean?
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
Sanitarium91
Night Dreamer
Join date: Oct 2006
1,591 IQ
#91
Don't get too caught up with simplicity. Something can be well crafted even if simple. I don't know Emmure's music really, so no comments, but what would you say makes it "objectively bad"? Keeping in mind that "everyone here hates it" or "it's faggy mallcore" etc. are not being considered proper answers.

Hey, here's a shitty example: I like Linkin Park's first two albums and I know the general consensus round places like this seems to be that it's pretty much objectively shitty songwriting. I don't think there's anything wrong with the songwriting. Pretty much all the songs flow incredibly well, and they contain a strong theme which is used as a focal point for variation, there's strong use of motifs. Well that sounds like some impressive techniques, huh? No, that's just pop music clichés. So you can argue that they are very unimaginative and creative for example for sticking to basically one song structure for 2 whole albums. You can argue that it's generic, simple, and that it's nothing new, but it still works for what it is. The songs are mostly just vehicles for transmitting an emotion. Isn't that what the great composers did? Yeah, Steve, I went there. You compare Gorguts to Mozart, I compare Linkin Park.

Alright, fuckery aside. I'm sure Mozart's emotional vehicles weren't for teen angst, but that's not the point. The music does what it's meant to do even if just arranged for one piano, and that's usually some indication that the music doesn't just rely on the aesthetics. Though surely their aesthetics were what made them famous, in the end (LOLOLOL). Of course, pop music turned rock through aesthetics is kind of safe from criticism through theory simply cause it's written so safe. It's so manufactured that it doesn't even try to challenge the listener, and I guess maybe that's why a lot of people want to hate it. Or maybe 'sall 'bout hatin' on the mainstream just 'cause. Erm, my point? Uhm, yeah, simplicity is fine. Although I'm sure there are people who think it's only ok if you're officially a minimalist composer or something. **** em.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=I9CEqV1MxIo
boratian
UG Member
Join date: May 2009
900 IQ
#92
My opinion towards music is simple: just be inspired. If that requires theory, cool, just stay inspired. I personally don't do indepth with the theory when I listen to music, and I would in fact argue I enjoy music at a higher level than those who taint every bar with analysis. You get more out of simply listening and appreciating the feelings and emotions being evoked in the music than if you are making a conscious effort to dissect every little detail.

Here's my experience with people over analyzing. My brother has a minor in music and studied theory for a number of years. He would always have me try to figure out what notes are being played in a saxophone solo (he played saxophone; I have a pretty good ear for note recognition while he doesnt). One day he comes up to me with a song and goes "Seriously, what the hell is going on here" (I'm paraphrasing the quotes, this was like 5-6 years ago so I dont remember everything exactly) and he plays me the sax solo. I listened to it and just shrugged because I failed to see the point he was getting at. He pointed out to me that one of the notes wasnt "in the scale/key being played" and it was basically impossible for him to understand that as a musician, you really can just do whatever the **** you want if it works. I know the bare-bones basics of music theory, he has a minor in the stuff. I have written around 20 songs in my life, a good amount of which I have fully fleshed out parts for drums, guitar, and bass; he has written literally no songs.

My point is I enjoy music for what it is and get inspired by it, flaws and all. I don't analyzed the music to a point of ridiculous detail and would argue that this "pure experience" is infinitely closer to the true purpose of listening to music: for its ability to evoke emotional responses in us. And I'm sorry, but a song that is technical for the sake of being theoretically technical is no better than if a machine wrote it. In fact, you could probably program a machine to write technical, theory driven music if you did the right programming. Also, those types of songs are about as memorable as an ant I stepped on at the age of 5.
Music must be honest to be timeless.
Nietsche
Registered Hoover
Join date: May 2009
386 IQ
#93
The thing is that your brother wasn't over analysing anything, he was analysing it in the wrong way. Thinking that theory involves prescribing you to work within the notes of a given scale for the duration of a piece is an obvious beginner mistake.
.
technicolour
Banned
Join date: Jul 2006
1,153 IQ
#94
Ah but what if we define (some of) music's objectivity/value with the ideas it brings forth, or what social/cultural artifacts it addresses.
Morphogenesis26
UG Nerd
Join date: Apr 2011
468 IQ
#95
Quote by technicolour
Ah but what if we define (some of) music's objectivity/value with the ideas it brings forth, or what social/cultural artifacts it addresses.


Doesn't sound bad in theory, but everyone I've met who takes a stance like that comes off as if they want the majority of music in the world banned and only a specific kind allowed to be played/studied.

But...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3mo8ug-tb8
MaaZeus
Registered User
Join date: Sep 2012
409 IQ
#96
Only Deathcore band I have grown to like is Moker. Propably because classifying them as pure Deathcore is not really accurate because there is a hefty dose of good old Br00tal Death Metal and Slam mixed in or so I hear it. And most of all breakdowns do not dominate the songs nor are they always mindless chugs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzEtxuwaj7Q

Am I the only one who finds the finale of the song very Slugathor like?

ESP LTD F-50 + Tonezone
Cort EVL-Z4 + X2N
Cort EVL-K47B

Marshall Valvestate 8100
Randall RG1503
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Peavey Rockmaster preamp

Line6 Pod X3
ChemicalFire
King of Bacon Pancakes
Join date: Oct 2007
5,773 IQ
#97
Quote by Sanitarium91
Don't get too caught up with simplicity. Something can be well crafted even if simple. I don't know Emmure's music really, so no comments, but what would you say makes it "objectively bad"? Keeping in mind that "everyone here hates it" or "it's faggy mallcore" etc. are not being considered proper answers.


Because it's only breakdowns and the majority of their music is seen as "binary code" due to how their tabs look. It's just chugging.
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
Steve08
Lord of Battery
Join date: Apr 2009
390 IQ
#99
Quote by Sanitarium91
Hey, here's a shitty example: I like Linkin Park's first two albums
As do I.
Quote by Sanitarium91
and I know the general consensus round places like this seems to be that it's pretty much objectively shitty songwriting. I don't think there's anything wrong with the songwriting. Pretty much all the songs flow incredibly well, and they contain a strong theme which is used as a focal point for variation, there's strong use of motifs. Well that sounds like some impressive techniques, huh? No, that's just pop music clichés. So you can argue that they are very unimaginative and creative for example for sticking to basically one song structure for 2 whole albums. You can argue that it's generic, simple, and that it's nothing new, but it still works for what it is. The songs are mostly just vehicles for transmitting an emotion. Isn't that what the great composers did? Yeah, Steve, I went there. You compare Gorguts to Mozart, I compare Linkin Park.
The pop formula in and of itself isn't necessarily "bad", and is certainly more sensible and logically-formulated than the music of BTBAM, Opeth, Gojira, Periphery and so on, because it works to create pop music every time, no matter what aesthetic circumstance it is set within; that said, though, that maybe does not make the music objectively "bad" or "good", true, but it does certainly make it objectively mediocre and derivative from a structural basis, which are both wholly valid reasons to choose to dislike something, much in the way that I use the intrinsically random, arbitrary nature of a band like BTBAM's songwriting as justification for my intense scorn towards them, but regardless, it's still my opinion that it is bad for that reason. The opposite of that would be to know what is there, and enjoy it regardless of that reason (as mentioned by ChemicalFire).

Also, the comparison of Gorguts to classical is much more valid than many other death metal bands, given that Mr. "random chromatic notes" Luc Lemay has actually written classical music. And... it's good.
Quote by Sanitarium91
Alright, fuckery aside. I'm sure Mozart's emotional vehicles weren't for teen angst, but that's not the point.
What? Requiem Mass in D minor is clearly the result of a juvenile teen's sense of insecurity and self-loathing causing him to want his pain to be forced upon others, you dumbass!!!
Quote by Sanitarium91
The music does what it's meant to do even if just arranged for one piano, and that's usually some indication that the music doesn't just rely on the aesthetics. Though surely their aesthetics were what made them famous, in the end (LOLOLOL). Of course, pop music turned rock through aesthetics is kind of safe from criticism through theory simply cause it's written so safe.
Precisely. It does what it's meant to do, be safe, accessible and friendly (like all pop-oriented music), but the end product is clearly unambitious and of less artistic value than, say... Richard Wagner's Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg.
Quote by Sanitarium91
It's so manufactured that it doesn't even try to challenge the listener, and I guess maybe that's why a lot of people want to hate it. Or maybe 'sall 'bout hatin' on the mainstream just 'cause. Erm, my point? Uhm, yeah, simplicity is fine. Although I'm sure there are people who think it's only ok if you're officially a minimalist composer or something. **** em.
Simplicity is fine as long as there is an internal logic behind it all which transforms it from being "fucking stupid" into "art", such as, say... Burzum, as one particularly good example.
Last edited by Steve08 at Dec 19, 2012,
Magero
Nothing to say, Bats?
Join date: May 2006
4,528 IQ
#100
Good posts this page, guys, been sitting here nodding sagely like "Yes... yes... this is all coming together now..."

No, but seriously, this is starting to come back to one of my earliest gripes with the ANUS team (don't worry, not going full-retard, just mentioning something), which is that the actual musical output of an artist is also measured against their specific intention with that music. IE: Linkin Park's music works because they use the defined pop characteristics in a very light coating of hard rock/nu metal, to express teen angst and emotional fragility. Nothing they do is going to make a composer turn their head, but it works because they use the tropes effectively, if not "progressively".

However, I would like to say that even though I don't take issue with "Intention = key part of musical analysis" (because if I did, I'd be a twat), I find it slightly odd considering how unimportant that tends to be. You don't hear many bands taking about the musical intentions of their record outside of "we wanted to be heavy hur hur etc", you get me? I know that a lot of guys like Morbid Angel and Cryptopsy have done interviews where they've explained why they use the notes they do, etc, but that's not too common. So I guess my point/question is, if something's "purpose" is not set in stone, but a more open to interpretation piece, does that still mean it's point is dulled? Does the artist lose composition points for not writing "THIS SONG IS ABOUT DEATH, THATS WHY I USED ALL MINOR NOTES" on every CD?


edit: Also, Lemay's classical stuff is legit. Will have to track down some more.
Last edited by Magero at Dec 18, 2012,
Morphogenesis26
UG Nerd
Join date: Apr 2011
468 IQ
#101
Quote by Magero
However, I would like to say that even though I don't take issue with "Intention = key part of musical analysis" (because if I did, I'd be a twat), I find it slightly odd considering how unimportant that tends to be. You don't hear many bands taking about the musical intentions of their record outside of "we wanted to be heavy hur hur etc", you get me? I know that a lot of guys like Morbid Angel and Cryptopsy have done interviews where they've explained why they use the notes they do, etc, but that's not too common. So I guess my point/question is, if something's "purpose" is not set in stone, but a more open to interpretation piece, does that still mean it's point is dulled? Does the artist lose composition points for not writing "THIS SONG IS ABOUT DEATH, THATS WHY I USED ALL MINOR NOTES" on every CD?


Most of the time the music makes the reason behind itself pretty obvious. The musicians don't have to explain it, hell, they themselves don't even have to know it enough to put it into words in an interview, but the general idea they had in their head for it comes out through the music.

That's how I've always seen it, at least.
Steve08
Lord of Battery
Join date: Apr 2009
390 IQ
#102
Quote by Magero
However, I would like to say that even though I don't take issue with "Intention = key part of musical analysis" (because if I did, I'd be a twat), I find it slightly odd considering how unimportant that tends to be. You don't hear many bands taking about the musical intentions of their record outside of "we wanted to be heavy hur hur etc", you get me? I know that a lot of guys like Morbid Angel and Cryptopsy have done interviews where they've explained why they use the notes they do, etc, but that's not too common. So I guess my point/question is, if something's "purpose" is not set in stone, but a more open to interpretation piece, does that still mean it's point is dulled? Does the artist lose composition points for not writing "THIS SONG IS ABOUT DEATH, THATS WHY I USED ALL MINOR NOTES" on every CD?
To be honest, I hear a lot of bands say that they want to write songs which are just open to interpretation (usually in regards to lyrics but music is usually mentioned in the same breath, more often than not) for any prospective listener to define themselves, so in a way, they would indeed be fulfilling some sort of artistic goal by achieving that, even if that's probably one of the vaguest iterations of any musical goal ever.
Quote by Magero
edit: Also, Lemay's classical stuff is legit. Will have to track down some more.
I don't think it has ever been released beyond that Myspace, sadly; I'd really like to get my hands on it myself.
Last edited by Steve08 at Dec 19, 2012,
Magero
Nothing to say, Bats?
Join date: May 2006
4,528 IQ
#103
Cool, to both posts.

I understand that there's still a very clear difference between a band who just doesn't think about "what the song has to mean" and just goes with "cool riffs bro", and the end result still being open to interpretation, and the artist who specifically sets out to make music with emotional themes and a "message", but that message still being open to etc. As we've established, I just don't think that distinction affects my judgement as much as you guys, and yes, I can understand that looking at things from a more theory enhanced point of view helps, but eh.

I think it all boils down to the simple fact that I know you enjoy a fair chunk of my work, even though my writing style is pretty lulzy when you get down to it, so I guess most of my arguing has been trying to reconcile that personal (and egotistical) cognitive dissonance.
Sanitarium91
Night Dreamer
Join date: Oct 2006
1,591 IQ
#104
Quote by Steve08

Also, the comparison of Gorguts to classical is much more valid than many other death metal bands, given that Mr. "random chromatic notes" Luc Lemay has actually written classical music. And... it's good.

Nice. I knew he has written some classical pieces, one should apparently appear on the next Gorguts record, but I didn't expect it to be so good. And I agree, Lemay is an artist, Linkin Park are more like manufacturers, I guess. Not really worth comparing them in that sense. Not that that was the purpose, at all. EDIT: In defense of LP, I'm sure they might be fulfilling their own artistic view and aren't necessarily doing it to please people, but that they just have very derivative tastes themselves. It's better to make music that you like than be "truly artistic" just because.
Quote by Steve08
What? Requiem Mass in D minor is clearly the result of a juvenile teen's sense of insecurity and self-loathing causing him to want his pain to be forced upon others, you dumbass!!!
Well whaddayaknow. Live and learn.
Last edited by Sanitarium91 at Dec 19, 2012,
Magero
Nothing to say, Bats?
Join date: May 2006
4,528 IQ
#105
There's a Zero Punctuation review for No More Heroes, where Yahtzee says something along the lines of "Anyone who sacrifices enjoyment for the sake of making an artistic point is a total bellend", and while he was talking about videogames, I feel the same thing is a bit of a personal preference with music as well. Obviously that brings us back to the whole subjective enjoyment parade, but you get my drift.
technicolour
Banned
Join date: Jul 2006
1,153 IQ
#106
Well that's why you don't rely on music as your main source of income (these days at least).

*whoops, read that as "employment" not enjoyment.
Last edited by technicolour at Dec 19, 2012,
eazy-c
Angus McHighlands
Join date: Dec 2006
559 IQ
#107
I think the crux of this thread is that Steve needs a ride.
Quote by ChemicalFire
The point of underground bands is their not popular or famous most of the time. Thus there is a good chance they suck.
Morphogenesis26
UG Nerd
Join date: Apr 2011
468 IQ
#108
Quote by eazy-c
I think the crux of this thread is that Steve needs a ride.


To funkytown.
ChemicalFire
King of Bacon Pancakes
Join date: Oct 2007
5,773 IQ
#109
Funkytown is over rated.

I prefer Discoburg.
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!