crazysam23_Atax
Feuergesicht
Join date: Oct 2009
5,710 IQ
#1
So...I got interested in Math Rock the other day, which in a very roundabout way led me to looking up what contrapuntal inversions are. I think I understand the principle. However, I was wondering if anyone knew of any examples in guitar music of contrapuntal inversions. (For me, seeing guitar examples would help me out a lot.) Any tabs that are linked or such would be greatly appreciated; and, if you feel any explanations are required, please feel free.


Thanks, guys!
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Dec 29, 2012,
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#4
wikipedia is a dangerous realm for the unskilled guitarist

meandering throughout the web, trying to find out why people have bass players and drummers instead of just 6 guitarists and seeing if redtube has any girls with braces to appeal to his age group. unbeknownst to him, however, he is being stalked by information far too powerful for his ears.

what's that?

says crazysam23_Atax
an obscure genre of music that makes me seem talented? hell yeah, i'll wikipedia it. wikipedia knows everything right? hey, i remember some guy on some forum on some site talking about these big words, i bet they use that in fall-of-troy-world! too bad i don't know music theory, so i'll go to my favorite tab site! they'll surely help me out!


this is just one of many cases that occur every year. pitch axis theory, phrygian dominant, all predators waiting to prey upon the poor soul's ability to learn, blinding the way with temptation and wrong-doing, and wikipedia is the enabler. wikipedia is the dad beating his son for being a pussy, and UG is that black veil brides video where the dumb poser kid rebels because he's an emo(tional teen) that's deeper than deep.

we need to shut down wikipedia or we're enabling recycled metalcore riffs and 14-year-old-girl-moistening frontmen. also tab sites, fuck those places.
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

Quote by jongtr
I want to be Hail when I grow up.
Nietsche
Registered Hoover
Join date: May 2009
386 IQ
#5
Quote by Hail
we need to shut down wikipedia or we're enabling recycled metalcore riffs and 14-year-old-girl-moistening frontmen.


Ye Gods, my eyes have now been opened to the conspiracy.
.
crazysam23_Atax
Feuergesicht
Join date: Oct 2009
5,710 IQ
#6
Quote by Hail
wikipedia is a dangerous realm for the unskilled guitarist

[snip]

Wow, you really seem like an asshole. 1) It's hardly like I'm some kid looking to play Metalcore. (I'm 24, for one. Not really some "out-of-place" emo-fag-looking teen who loves anything by Fall of Troy or All That Remains.) I despise Metalcore.
2) I have studied basic music theory. (I know what counterpoint is, for one, and find the exercises teachers make you do to learn it to be annoying.) I don't see the issue in asking you all for help in finding specific examples of contrapuntal inversions, except for the fact that all of you are being assholes about it.

Quote by griffRG7321
>Wants to learn counterpoint
>Asks for tabs

Forgive me for thinking there might be some tabs of Bach songs. Or that maybe someone could direct me to some examples of classical guitarists who use contrapuntal inversions.

Quote by Hail
also tab sites, fuck those places.

We're on a tab site, so real smart comment that.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Dec 29, 2012,
Xiaoxi
Registered Luser
Join date: Nov 2007
2,744 IQ
#7
uh....I don't think there's such a thing as contrapuntal inversions........

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#10
lol isn't the fall of troy math rock
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

Quote by jongtr
I want to be Hail when I grow up.
crazysam23_Atax
Feuergesicht
Join date: Oct 2009
5,710 IQ
#11
Quote by Xiaoxi
uh....I don't think there's such a thing as contrapuntal inversions........

Well, the way it's been described to me is that is that it goes up one way (so say it goes up by intervals to a major third) and then it goes down (inverts, from that major third to the root), all in counterpoint of course.

Quote by dannydawiz
This might help you.

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/tas3/mus303/contrinv.html

As far as examples on the guitar I don't know sorry.


Thank you! Much appreciated.

Quote by Hail
lol isn't the fall of troy math rock

Hey, look what wikipedia told me.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Dec 29, 2012,
AeolianWolf
Tonal Vigilante
Join date: Jul 2009
186 IQ
#13
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Well, the way it's been described to me is that is that it goes up one way (so say it goes up by intervals to a major third) and then it goes down (inverts, from that major third to the root), all in counterpoint of course.


seems like you're talking about contrapuntal inversions.

compare the prime (P) with the inversion (I):



Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Thank you! Much appreciated.


that link is talking about invertible counterpoint - i.e. double counterpoint.

Quote by jazz_rock_feel
I can't tell if you're talking about inverted melodies or invertible counterpoint.


same reason i chose not to comment.

you're not really going to find much in the way of counterpoint in tabs - counterpoint is something that gets very visual, and good counterpoint would be nearly impossible to read in tabs unless you took that shit really slowly, which would almost defeat the purpose since you're training yourself to learn a skill with no real use. counterpoint is much easier to understand through music notation.

you say you know basic music theory, but you want to get into complex counterpoint and your experience with music notation is limited? i'll try to be a little less of a dick than the other guys but i'm still going to be brash: you're not ready. you need more experience, more study, and more application to be able to effectively use the concepts you want to employ. counterpoint is a difficult beast and it's very easy to make counterpoint that sounds dry and academic. you need experience listening to lots and lots of good counterpoint to write good counterpoint.

if you want experience with counterpoint, focus more on the masters of it (palestrina, bach, brahms, even mozart to a degree) rather than math rock. understand counterpoint at its peak first. then come back, listen to math rock, and, with your thoroughly internalized understanding (underlined because i cannot emphasize that enough), analyze how it's used in modern styles.

study more music theory and familiarize yourself far more with music notation. counterpoint isn't something you can learn from a tabbed example like a scale. it requires a lot of in-depth study and immersion -- even within music, it's almost like a language all its own.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Xiaoxi
Registered Luser
Join date: Nov 2007
2,744 IQ
#14
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
I can't tell if you're talking about inverted melodies or invertible counterpoint.

yea these 2 make much more sense but I still don't know what exactly you're referring to..........

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
crazysam23_Atax
Feuergesicht
Join date: Oct 2009
5,710 IQ
#15
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
I can't tell if you're talking about inverted melodies or invertible counterpoint.
I think invertible counterpoint is another name for it.
Nietsche
Registered Hoover
Join date: May 2009
386 IQ
#16
Quote by Xiaoxi
yea these 2 make much more sense but I still don't know what exactly you're referring to..........


At this point I'm not even sure if crazysam knows what he's referring to.
.
crazysam23_Atax
Feuergesicht
Join date: Oct 2009
5,710 IQ
#17
Quote by AeolianWolf
seems like you're talking about contrapuntal inversions.

compare the prime (P) with the inversion (I):




that link is talking about invertible counterpoint - i.e. double counterpoint.


Ah, that's it exactly.

you say you know basic music theory, but you want to get into complex counterpoint and your experience with music notation is limited? i'll try to be a little less of a dick than the other guys but i'm still going to be brash: you're not ready. you need more experience, more study, and more application to be able to effectively use the concepts you want to employ. counterpoint is a difficult beast and it's very easy to make counterpoint that sounds dry and academic. you need experience listening to lots and lots of good counterpoint to write good counterpoint.


I never said that my experience with music notation was limited. I understand music notation just fine. I've taken a few classes where we used it exclusively. (I was a music minor for awhile.)

if you want experience with counterpoint, focus more on the masters of it (palestrina, bach, brahms, even mozart to a degree) rather than math rock. understand counterpoint at its peak first. then come back, listen to math rock, and, with your thoroughly internalized understanding (underlined because i cannot emphasize that enough), analyze how it's used in modern styles.


I wasn't planning on using Math Rock as a study tool. Math Rock was just what started me thinking in this direction. Any specific examples of Bach, Brahms, or Palestrina you would suggest?

study more music theory and familiarize yourself far more with music notation. counterpoint isn't something you can learn from a tabbed example like a scale. it requires a lot of in-depth study and immersion -- even within music, it's almost like a language all its own.

I understand the basics of counterpoint; I have studied it on my own. I'm looking for examples, which you provided a few composers; for which you have my thanks.
Keth
Contrapunctalist
Join date: Sep 2008
488 IQ
#18
Everything from Bach is counterpoint, really. In fact, his works for solo instruments (even forgetting about keyboards here) are the pinnacle of counterpoint.

At the moment I'm checking out this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiLMGXJuWsE

I like the next renditions a lot, the panning and/or choice of instruments make the voices a lot easier to hear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQy_Z7ZwloM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOidWTOvGJI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGd0rRGOeKY
Last edited by Keth at Dec 29, 2012,
National_Anthem
Quite the toff
Join date: Jun 2007
554 IQ
#19
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
I think invertible counterpoint is another name for it.


They both refer to different things... The inversion of a melody is one where the contours are reversed: a rising 5th would be replaced be a falling 5th, and so on - in other words a mirror image of the melody.

Invertible counterpoint is where two lines can be swapped around in the texture and still work as a counterpoint. It relies on the inversion of intervals, for example, the inversion of a 5th is a 4th, a 6th is a 3rd, and that both intervals will be consonant in both "contrapuntal inversions".

This just reminded me, there's a Bach fugue where he has an invertible counterpoint which works with subject in the Prime (I know it's not the right word for non-serial music, but tired and can't think of the right word atm), and inverted positions
What a bastard
AeolianWolf
Tonal Vigilante
Join date: Jul 2009
186 IQ
#20
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
I never said that my experience with music notation was limited. I understand music notation just fine. I've taken a few classes where we used it exclusively. (I was a music minor for awhile.)


there's a difference between "i understand the information just fine" and "i own the information". a few classes doesn't really get you to a level of proficiency. i was a music major and it took me quite some time to really be able to look at a score and analyze it on sight. continue developing your proficiency.

or you can choose to flaunt your ego, tell me that i don't have a handle on what i'm talking about, and that's fine - you'll be left to your own devices. but you'll find that you'll be completely floored by counterpoint.

Quote by crazysam23_Atax
I wasn't planning on using Math Rock as a study tool. Math Rock was just what started me thinking in this direction. Any specific examples of Bach, Brahms, or Palestrina you would suggest?


start simple. start with bach's 2-part keyboard inventions. palestrina, despite having come earlier than bach, has a style of more graceful counterpoint, but it's pretty difficult to analyze. you can try a few chorales if you like. as for brahms? xiaoxi knows him far better than i do - hunt down xiaoxi and ask him for detailed examples of brahms' contrapuntal technique. i'm sure he'd be glad to help you.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
crazysam23_Atax
Feuergesicht
Join date: Oct 2009
5,710 IQ
#21
Quote by Keth
Everything from Bach is counterpoint, really. In fact, his works for solo instruments (even forgetting about keyboards here) are the pinnacle of counterpoint.

Well, I knew this to a certain extent. I always enjoyed Bach's harmonies for this reason.

At the moment I'm checking out this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiLMGXJuWsE

I like the next renditions a lot, the panning and/or choice of instruments make the voices a lot easier to hear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQy_Z7ZwloM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOidWTOvGJI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGd0rRGOeKY

Thank you for these.

Quote by National_Anthem
They both refer to different things... The inversion of a melody is one where the contours are reversed: a rising 5th would be replaced be a falling 5th, and so on - in other words a mirror image of the melody.

Invertible counterpoint is where two lines can be swapped around in the texture and still work as a counterpoint. It relies on the inversion of intervals, for example, the inversion of a 5th is a 4th, a 6th is a 3rd, and that both intervals will be consonant in both "contrapuntal inversions".


Ah, ok. That makes sense.

This just reminded me, there's a Bach fugue where he has an invertible counterpoint which works with subject in the Prime (I know it's not the right word for non-serial music, but tired and can't think of the right word atm), and inverted positions
What a bastard
Well...sounds like I shouldn't start off with that fugue.

Quote by AeolianWolf
there's a difference between "i understand the information just fine" and "i own the information". a few classes doesn't really get you to a level of proficiency. i was a music major and it took me quite some time to really be able to look at a score and analyze it on sight. continue developing your proficiency.


I'm sure that I can always continue to develop my proficiency. Hell, there's ALWAYS room for improvement, as the saying goes. That said, I get your point.

or you can choose to flaunt your ego, tell me that i don't have a handle on what i'm talking about, and that's fine - you'll be left to your own devices. but you'll find that you'll be completely floored by counterpoint.


I really don't know how you would know me well enough to say that. Yes, I shouldn't start out with the complex stuff, but I wasn't planning to anyway. Start out simple, as you said. But yes, I probably would be overwhelmed, if I started off with the most complex stuff.

start with bach's 2-part keyboard inventions. palestrina, despite having come earlier than bach, has a style of more graceful counterpoint, but it's pretty difficult to analyze. you can try a few chorales if you like.


Thank you! Will do.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Dec 30, 2012,
Xiaoxi
Registered Luser
Join date: Nov 2007
2,744 IQ
#22
man I'm way confused in this thread...

Joe: that P, RI, etc thing...never heard of it being called invertible counterpoint. That whole thing is just part of matrix set theory, and is known as operations...counterpoint doesn't really apply here

National Anthem basically has it right. Invertible, or double counterpoint, is when 2 voices can be flipped (high becomes low, low becomes high) and their tension/resolutions between the intervals remain "correct".

A great basic example is Bach's Invention no. 2, c minor.

This piece basically has 2 sections, both using the same counterpoint material. Halfway through the piece, the 2 voices modulate to the dominant key AND switch roles:
here's the score

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb-LhVJszWE

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
Last edited by Xiaoxi at Dec 30, 2012,
Xiaoxi
Registered Luser
Join date: Nov 2007
2,744 IQ
#23
With that said, I'm still not exactly sure what you're trying to learn.


Counterpoint has 2 tiers of understanding:

-the easy way: 2 or more lines have independence in their movements, rhythmically and melodically speaking. With that in mind, you can do whatever the hell you want.

-the hard way: a very specific language of tonal classical music regarding the way in which 2 or more lines interact with each other. The way they interact with each other is almost like atoms in chemistry: depending on the condition, the protons and electrons will react in different ways. Same principle with the musical language here. This can be learned through textbook "rules", like the ones you'll find in species counterpoint based on Palestrina. But I firmly believe that way doesn't really yield any good musical results...in other words, useless. I've found that the effective way is to treat it like learning a language (just like everything else in music). You have to completely immerse yourself in it: actively listening, singing and feeling the intervallic interactions, intuitively picking up on the idioms, etc. Only then can you start to use counterpoint in a musical way, and not some textbook convention snoozefest.


Quote by AeolianWolf
as for brahms? xiaoxi knows him far better than i do - hunt down xiaoxi and ask him for detailed examples of brahms' contrapuntal technique. i'm sure he'd be glad to help you.

This is an easy one one to answer.

"Study Bach. There you'll find everything." - Johannes Brahms

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
Last edited by Xiaoxi at Dec 30, 2012,
Xiaoxi
Registered Luser
Join date: Nov 2007
2,744 IQ
#24
Quote by National_Anthem

This just reminded me, there's a Bach fugue where he has an invertible counterpoint which works with subject in the Prime (I know it's not the right word for non-serial music, but tired and can't think of the right word atm), and inverted positions
What a bastard

Not sure what you mean here...

Fugues inherently contain invertible counterpoint because most entries of the subjects are accompanied by countersubjects, both of which keeps being stated by different voices. Invertible counterpoint itself is not a highly technical feat.

But if you meant that he came up with a subject that works with an inversion of itself, that's another story. And yea he has a couple of those in the art of fugue and others.

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
AETHERA
Registered User
Join date: May 2010
43 IQ
#25
Xiaoxi:


1) In regards to the layers of understanding counterpoint that you mention, is it accurate to consider the "easy way" as counterpoint proper? Would that general description hold the name of polyphony better, or do I have my wires crossed here? My secondary thoughts are that polyphony is a simple type of musical texture and counterpoint is a technique with certain idioms and characteristic devices which can be contained within the broader terms of polyphony. I also understand counterpoint to be in conjunct with a certain economy of material, in that voices imitate and echo each other in a number of ways (interchange of parts, melodic inversion and retrograde melodies, sequences, etc.), whereas polyphony would include concurrent melodies which do not share prominent figures and material.

2) Do you have any preference for stretto fugues, such as the Fugue in C Major from the Well-Tempered Clavier, either as prime examples of counterpoint or as otherwise materials for study over fugues which do not demonstrate significant use of stretto entries?


National_Anthem:

If you're staying in a simple or narrow tonal field, you can easily employ inversion of a subject simply by moving it around to a different point in the scale and flipping it upside-down; (forgive the mode-speak) the Dorian mode inverts to itself, and is thus symmetrical; the Ionian inverts to the Phrygian, the Mixolydian to the Aeolian, and the Lydian to the Locrian. Thus, you can state real inversions of a subject easily on different scale degrees depending on the initial degree - or you can just invert the subject and roll with it where it is.
You might could use some double modals.
Keth
Contrapunctalist
Join date: Sep 2008
488 IQ
#26
I think National_Anthem might be talking about the B-flat minor fugue from WTC II, it has the subject (harmonized) with the inverted subject played as a harmonized stretto.
Xiaoxi
Registered Luser
Join date: Nov 2007
2,744 IQ
#27
Quote by AETHERA

1) In regards to the layers of understanding counterpoint that you mention, is it accurate to consider the "easy way" as counterpoint proper?
Not at all. But I put that out there as a practical way for people who don't really have the means or have the actual needs to study real counterpoint. Your average rock music guy might just have fun with that simple concept and probably wouldn't/couldn't use real counterpoint in his music anyway.

2) Do you have any preference for stretto fugues, such as the Fugue in C Major from the Well-Tempered Clavier, either as prime examples of counterpoint or as otherwise materials for study over fugues which do not demonstrate significant use of stretto entries?
I don't have a preference for anything technical like that. Priority #1 is being musical and artistically meaningful.

(forgive the mode-speak)

I cannot!!! Never EVER use modes when talking about counterpoint. Counterpoint is developed through real-time relationships between the voices. Modes/scales are meaningless in this context and actually hinder understanding because they are essentially sets of vertical available notes, as opposed to the adaptive horizontal movements in intervals. They should never enter the equation here, even to explain something like what you're talking about.

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
TheHydra
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2011
421 IQ
#28
Quote by Xiaoxi
Not at all. But I put that out there as a practical way for people who don't really have the means or have the actual needs to study real counterpoint. Your average rock music guy might just have fun with that simple concept and probably wouldn't/couldn't use real counterpoint in his music anyway.

I don't have a preference for anything technical like that. Priority #1 is being musical and artistically meaningful.


I cannot!!! Never EVER use modes when talking about counterpoint. Counterpoint is developed through real-time relationships between the voices. Modes/scales are meaningless in this context and actually hinder understanding because they are essentially sets of vertical available notes, as opposed to the adaptive horizontal movements in intervals. They should never enter the equation here, even to explain something like what you're talking about.

Slightly off-topic, but I've started working on a transcription and analysis of Bach's Invention No. 2 in C Minor and I wanted to know if I could PM it to you in the next few days to see if I'm on the right track.
crazysam23_Atax
Feuergesicht
Join date: Oct 2009
5,710 IQ
#29
Quote by Xiaoxi

Counterpoint has 2 tiers of understanding:

-the easy way: 2 or more lines have independence in their movements, rhythmically and melodically speaking. With that in mind, you can do whatever the hell you want.

-the hard way: a very specific language of tonal classical music regarding the way in which 2 or more lines interact with each other. The way they interact with each other is almost like atoms in chemistry: depending on the condition, the protons and electrons will react in different ways. Same principle with the musical language here. This can be learned through textbook "rules", like the ones you'll find in species counterpoint based on Palestrina. But I firmly believe that way doesn't really yield any good musical results...in other words, useless. I've found that the effective way is to treat it like learning a language (just like everything else in music). You have to completely immerse yourself in it: actively listening, singing and feeling the intervallic interactions, intuitively picking up on the idioms, etc. Only then can you start to use counterpoint in a musical way, and not some textbook convention snoozefest.

I pretty much would use "the easy way" in my own compositions. I tend to follow a very loose set of personal rules (to avoid getting very dissonant sounds, unless there's a specific reason for dissonance). I admit that I basically make one somewhat complex riff be the counterpoint to another somewhat complex riff by nature. I've always sort of layered guitar parts, trying to get interesting harmonies/"fake chordal tones" and such.

However, I think studying "the hard way" would be a good thing to do, because, as you said, it's basically a very specific musical language. Increasing overall musical understanding obviously leads to greater understanding of music as a whole, after all.

Edit:
Also, as an aside, I think I'm going to study that Brahms link in your sig when I have time.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Dec 30, 2012,
Xiaoxi
Registered Luser
Join date: Nov 2007
2,744 IQ
#30
Quote by TheHydra
Slightly off-topic, but I've started working on a transcription and analysis of Bach's Invention No. 2 in C Minor and I wanted to know if I could PM it to you in the next few days to see if I'm on the right track.

sure

it's my favorite invention

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
National_Anthem
Quite the toff
Join date: Jun 2007
554 IQ
#31
Quote by Xiaoxi
Not sure what you mean here...

Fugues inherently contain invertible counterpoint because most entries of the subjects are accompanied by countersubjects, both of which keeps being stated by different voices. Invertible counterpoint itself is not a highly technical feat.

But if you meant that he came up with a subject that works with an inversion of itself, that's another story. And yea he has a couple of those in the art of fugue and others.


Now I've slept and I'm sober, let's try that again The subject and counter subject work together, whether or not either or both are inverted (either in the texture or melodically).
Last edited by National_Anthem at Dec 30, 2012,