Usernames sucks
Tab Contributor
Join date: Jun 2010
12,735 IQ
#1
Hi, i just wonder how about how many bands do or have drummers who do use clicktracks live? If just the drummer does use it, how do the others hold tempo with the click when the drums isnt playing?
Last edited by Usernames sucks at Jan 1, 2013,
AeolianWolf
Tonal Vigilante
Join date: Jul 2009
186 IQ
#2
only the ones who consist of poor musicians and hipsters who insist that their music be played at 314.159 BPM

a musician should be able to keep any tempo in his own head.

not to mention that in pieces which require things like accelerandos or rallentandos or some such performance devices are far more often than not complicated by click tracks.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
minieme007
Registered User
Join date: Jul 2009
587 IQ
#3
I'd say a good percentage of them, especially the ones that use in-ear monitor systems. For a band like Muse, with videos, backing tracks and arpeggiators that they have to be perfectly in time with, a click is pretty much a must. Hell, even a relatively unknown Melbourne band uses clicks and backing tracks. I'd say for the band members that aren't drummers, they'd have the click in their ears as a count down to the song, then nothing. Maybe it'd come back in for the bits without drums, that's certainly the way I'd do it. For less rigid live shows it wouldn't really be necessary though.
Junior#1
Is SouTaicho Yamamoto-san
Join date: Oct 2007
238 IQ
#5
Whenever my band plays a gig our drummer will put on a metronome for a couple seconds before each song to get the beat in his head. The rest of us just follow him.
Quote by Geldin
Junior's usually at least a little terse, but he knows his stuff. I've always read his posts in a grouchy grandfather voice, a grouchy grandfather with a huge stiffy for alternate picking.
Besides that, he's right this time. As usual.
food1010
Bassist
Join date: Jun 2007
1,660 IQ
#6
Quote by AeolianWolf
only the ones who consist of poor musicians and hipsters who insist that their music be played at 314.159 BPM

a musician should be able to keep any tempo in his own head.

not to mention that in pieces which require things like accelerandos or rallentandos or some such performance devices are far more often than not complicated by click tracks.
This. Any music that is alive shouldn't stick to one tempo for a whole song.

That said, every musician should practice to a metronome. I don't do it enough. Come to think of it, I don't practice enough (or hardly at all really)...
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
primusfan
Conspiracy Music Theorist
Join date: Mar 2004
5,337 IQ
#7
in one band, we have in-ear monitors and the drummer runs his through a separate mixer with a click. the difference is noticeable. i've learned from the experience that if it feels way too slow on stage, it's probably the correct tempo. we had someone walk by a tent we were playing at the state fair and think we were the actual band we were covering. i have no doubt the click makes the difference.

that said, it's nothing i'm super anal about. i'm not super purist and say no click, but i'm not exclusively into click tracks. if i had to choose, i'd always rather play the gig with a drummer on a click though.
#DTWD
food1010
Bassist
Join date: Jun 2007
1,660 IQ
#8
Quote by primusfan
that said, it's nothing i'm super anal about. i'm not super purist and say no click, but i'm not exclusively into click tracks. if i had to choose, i'd always rather play the gig with a drummer on a click though.
It's certainly better to use a click than to be terribly out of time.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
primusfan
Conspiracy Music Theorist
Join date: Mar 2004
5,337 IQ
#9
Quote by food1010
It's certainly better to use a click than to be terribly out of time.


the difference is a lot more subtle than that in my experience. but you are correct.
#DTWD
chronowarp
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2012
43 IQ
#10
Quote by AeolianWolf
only the ones who consist of poor musicians and hipsters who insist that their music be played at 314.159 BPM

a musician should be able to keep any tempo in his own head.

not to mention that in pieces which require things like accelerandos or rallentandos or some such performance devices are far more often than not complicated by click tracks.

I always gotta double take when I read your posts.

Are you being serious?

What about bands that don't have triggered cues in their live performances? Synth parts, 808 drops, reverse cymbal washes...and myraid of studio or otherwise musical sounds that they can't produce on the stage - but is integral to their live show/music? You gotta feed a click to the drummer so that the entire song is in time, and these things are occurring on cue.
Last edited by chronowarp at Jan 2, 2013,
Zoomyrs1
Registered User
Join date: May 2004
11 IQ
#11
Quote by primusfan
in one band, we have in-ear monitors and the drummer runs his through a separate mixer with a click. the difference is noticeable. i've learned from the experience that if it feels way too slow on stage, it's probably the correct tempo.




Agree here. All of the nerves and adrenaline playing live tend to make people play everything fast.
AeolianWolf
Tonal Vigilante
Join date: Jul 2009
186 IQ
#12
Quote by chronowarp
I always gotta double take when I read your posts.


that's probably because you're a hipster

Quote by chronowarp
Are you being serious?


about sentence 1? not really. maybe a little, but mostly no. about sentences 2 and 3? you better believe it.

general rule of thumb: if i don't use a period, i'm not serious. period = serious. they even almost rhyme, kinda.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Last edited by AeolianWolf at Jan 2, 2013,
chronowarp
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2012
43 IQ
#13
Ok, great. We all know you should be able to play metronomically without a metronome - that's not the issue. How do you resolve the problem that many live acts have triggered sections in their music, which requires that the backing is precisely in time (tempo and exact placement in the song)?

T
AlanHB
Godin's Resident Groupie
Join date: Aug 2008
1,703 IQ
#14
^^^ I'm with you there, if there's triggered effects/videos, there has to be a click.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#15
all depends on the show/performer(s)/music

outside of the realm of over-the-top pyrotechnics/music that's incredibly exacting, however, aeolian's right in that it eliminates a lot of dynamics

however, when you're looking at a band like periphery (who popularized a lot of the stuff in recent prog, including backing tracks/clicks) who have 3 guitarists and some fairly technical bits and pieces, it's very difficult to imagine them just going off and hoping the vibe will carry them through. if one person loses the tempo even slightly, it automatically sounds absolutely terrible.
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

Quote by jongtr
I want to be Hail when I grow up.
Nietsche
Registered Hoover
Join date: May 2009
386 IQ
#17
I don't see how having three guitarists necessitates having a click track. Orchestra's can have dozens of players and they don't require a click to keep time.
.
Tempoe
. . . ∆ . . .
Join date: Oct 2008
2,511 IQ
#18
Quote by Nietsche
I don't see how having three guitarists necessitates having a click track. Orchestra's can have dozens of players and they don't require a click to keep time.


That's the Conductors job
chronowarp
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2012
43 IQ
#19
Quote by Hail
all depends on the show/performer(s)/music

outside of the realm of over-the-top pyrotechnics/music that's incredibly exacting, however, aeolian's right in that it eliminates a lot of dynamics

however, when you're looking at a band like periphery (who popularized a lot of the stuff in recent prog, including backing tracks/clicks) who have 3 guitarists and some fairly technical bits and pieces, it's very difficult to imagine them just going off and hoping the vibe will carry them through. if one person loses the tempo even slightly, it automatically sounds absolutely terrible.

>dynamics
>rock/pop music
Nietsche
Registered Hoover
Join date: May 2009
386 IQ
#20
Quote by Tempoe
That's the Conductors job


Yeah, and it's the drummers job in most contemporary music ensembles. Go figure.
.
Andalus
Bànned
Join date: Mar 2011
617 IQ
#21
Quote by AeolianWolf
only the ones who consist of poor musicians and hipsters who insist that their music be played at 314.159 BPM

a musician should be able to keep any tempo in his own head.

not to mention that in pieces which require things like accelerandos or rallentandos or some such performance devices are far more often than not complicated by click tracks.

Rush use a click live.
z4twenny
UG's resident Psychopath
Join date: Nov 2005
936 IQ
#22
Quote by Nietsche
Yeah, and it's the drummers job in most contemporary music ensembles. Go figure.

the one problem with 95% of drummers... man i don't care if we jam fast or slow just make that shit steady.
AeolianWolf
Tonal Vigilante
Join date: Jul 2009
186 IQ
#23
Quote by Andalus
Rush use a click live.


rush sucks (read: rush ****ing rocks)
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
Join date: Oct 2009
3,411 IQ
#24
Quote by Usernames sucks
It seems just a little dumb that you never can stop/hold out a song, improvise, do stuff with the audience etc just because of the click :/

Why? What does it matter if there's a click? You can still improvise - in a certain tempo. It's just a click track. And you can stop the song and start it again, you just have the click in your ears all the time. The click is in your ears (or only in the drummer's ears), the audience won't hear it so you can do stuff with the audience as well as if you didn't have the click track.

But I don't think many professional bands really improvise on stage. They have planned carefully what they are going to play (I mean the biggest bands). They might make it sound like improvising like here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2cLPBb0bhw

But actually they have planned what they are going to play. I have seen another video of "Rocket" and they play exactly the same things.

You need a click track if you have backing tracks or videos. Even a slight tempo change and you are out of sync with the backing track. Of course you can listen to the backing track but that's a lot harder than listening to your band mates because the band mates can react to slight tempo changes, the backing track can't. And what if there are parts that don't have a backing track? If there was a backing track only in the chorus?

Quote by Nietsche
I don't see how having three guitarists necessitates having a click track. Orchestra's can have dozens of players and they don't require a click to keep time.

An orchestra would sound terrible with a click track. It's part of classical music that there are lots of tempo changes. The music kind of lives all the time. If the whole song was in exactly the same tempo, it wouldn't sound as good. It would sound like it was played by a machine.

But there's a conductor that keeps everybody in time. I'm sure it would sound pretty bad if there wasn't a conductor.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Charvel So Cal
Ibanez Blazer
Yamaha FG720S-12
Tokai TB48
Laney VC30
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Jan 3, 2013,
Zoomyrs1
Registered User
Join date: May 2004
11 IQ
#25
Quote by Nietsche
I don't see how having three guitarists necessitates having a click track. Orchestra's can have dozens of players and they don't require a click to keep time.



Apples to Oranges.

Classical music is heavily polymetric. In 9 measures you may play in 3 different time scales. Aside from that, each conductor has an individual style and there will be variances in volume and tempo between two professional conductors playing the same piece.


I would be curious if Trans-Siberian uses a click track they have a WHALE of a stage show and I bet you could average out a lot of what they play, now that I think about it.
Dayn
Registered User
Join date: Jun 2006
536 IQ
#26
Most of my favourite bands do, because if they didn't, they'd fall apart. Even slowing down or speeding up a tiny bit would throw everything off.

Personally, I'd use one, because I want everything to be cohesive. My songs need that cohesion because each track can't stray. If there's a tempo change in the song, then I'd just program that in... simple. Unless you have parts involving free time or a lot of gradual accelerando or rallentando, I can't see a single downside. Unless one's ego is strangely tied into the rejection of particular technology...
Ibanez RG2228 w/ EMG808Xs | Line 6 POD HD500 | Mackie HD1221
Usernames sucks
Tab Contributor
Join date: Jun 2010
12,735 IQ
#27
Quote by Dayn
Most of my favourite bands do, because if they didn't, they'd fall apart. Even slowing down or speeding up a tiny bit would throw everything off.

Personally, I'd use one, because I want everything to be cohesive. My songs need that cohesion because each track can't stray. If there's a tempo change in the song, then I'd just program that in... simple. Unless you have parts involving free time or a lot of gradual accelerando or rallentando, I can't see a single downside. Unless one's ego is strangely tied into the rejection of particular technology...

Well, isnt carrying around and setting up the clicks every night a downside? Seems line alot of work, and many things can go wrong.
Tempoe
. . . ∆ . . .
Join date: Oct 2008
2,511 IQ
#28
I used to set my echo to the right tempo for an original song, give it a little tap for a few echos for the drummer to get the time in his head to start...he'd still loose it by the end most times, he was a drinker, combine that with free beers
Usernames sucks
Tab Contributor
Join date: Jun 2010
12,735 IQ
#29
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Why? What does it matter if there's a click? You can still improvise - in a certain tempo. It's just a click track. And you can stop the song and start it again, you just have the click in your ears all the time. The click is in your ears (or only in the drummer's ears), the audience won't hear it so you can do stuff with the audience as well as if you didn't have the click track.

But I don't think many professional bands really improvise on stage. They have planned carefully what they are going to play (I mean the biggest bands). They might make it sound like improvising like here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2cLPBb0bhw

But actually they have planned what they are going to play. I have seen another video of "Rocket" and they play exactly the same things.

You need a click track if you have backing tracks or videos. Even a slight tempo change and you are out of sync with the backing track. Of course you can listen to the backing track but that's a lot harder than listening to your band mates because the band mates can react to slight tempo changes, the backing track can't. And what if there are parts that don't have a backing track? If there was a backing track only in the chorus?


An orchestra would sound terrible with a click track. It's part of classical music that there are lots of tempo changes. The music kind of lives all the time. If the whole song was in exactly the same tempo, it wouldn't sound as good. It would sound like it was played by a machine.

But there's a conductor that keeps everybody in time. I'm sure it would sound pretty bad if there wasn't a conductor.

About the part about improvisation, if you wach this (guthrie govans new band) you'll see that they never could have had an preformace like this with a click. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmincofcVQs
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#30
Quote by Usernames sucks
Well, isnt carrying around and setting up the clicks every night a downside? Seems line alot of work, and many things can go wrong.


what are you talking about? you can program your in-ears, light show, backing tracks all in a DAW. something goes wrong? that's why you pay for a sound guy who knows what he's doing.

and @ the guy talking about how 3 guitars is similar to an orchestra: imagine an orchestra of violas. yeah, i know.
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

Quote by jongtr
I want to be Hail when I grow up.
Last edited by Hail at Jan 3, 2013,
Nietsche
Registered Hoover
Join date: May 2009
386 IQ
#31
Quote by MaggaraMarine
But there's a conductor that keeps everybody in time. I'm sure it would sound pretty bad if there wasn't a conductor.


Yeah, and what I'm trying to get at here is there already is someone who plays an analogous role in most contemporary musical settings - the drummer. In fact, in most of the situations being discussed the drummer is still the one keeping time for the band, just with the aid of a click. All the click is doing is help the drummer keep time steadily. But, here's the kicker - if they're a good drummer they should be able to do that without the aid of a click.

Maybe I'm biased because I don't listen to the kind of 'metal' that would stereotypically require a click anyway. I'd be interested to know how the older 'tech metal' bands like Watchtower pulled their shit off live though. Somehow I doubt any clicks were involved, I could be wrong.

Quote by Zoomyrs1
Classical music is heavily polymetric. In 9 measures you may play in 3 different time scales.


I know those words, but I can't decipher what they mean when put together like this.
.
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
Join date: Oct 2009
3,411 IQ
#32
Quote by Nietsche
Yeah, and what I'm trying to get at here is there already is someone who plays an analogous role in most contemporary musical settings - the drummer. In fact, in most of the situations being discussed the drummer is still the one keeping time for the band, just with the aid of a click. All the click is doing is help the drummer keep time steadily. But, here's the kicker - if they're a good drummer they should be able to do that without the aid of a click.

Maybe I'm biased because I don't listen to the kind of 'metal' that would stereotypically require a click anyway. I'd be interested to know how the older 'tech metal' bands like Watchtower pulled their shit off live though. Somehow I doubt any clicks were involved, I could be wrong.


I know those words, but I can't decipher what they mean when put together like this.

If there are backing tracks, it would be very hard to play exactly in time. Even the smallest change in tempo (0.1 second delay) will make you sound off. Even the best drummer can't play exactly in 120bpm if you tell him to do it. At least I wouldn't take the risk. He might play in 120.1bpm or something and if he keeps playing in that tempo for a longer time, it will sound off when you compare it to the backing track in 120bpm. If every part of the song doesn't have a backing track, you might be off the beat when the backing track starts playing.

Of course if you play in a band without backing tracks, there's no need for click track.

And @ TS: Yeah, the video you sent was that kind of jazzy jamming stuff. And I wouldn't use click for that kind of stuff, it's more free in many ways. And the purpose of that kind of band is to jam and come up with something new every time you play together. The arrangements vary and you play different solos and stuff.

But if we talk about typical rock concert (like that Def Leppard gig) - everything is planned before you go and perform, even though it might look like they are improvising. They want it to sound as good as possible. But I wouldn't use click for that kind of basic rock concert either if I didn't use any backing tracks (though Def Leppard used backing tracks). But I have nothing against using click. Because if you play on a gig, you usually play the stuff much faster than the original recording. Metronome will make you play it in the tempo it was supposed to be played. It might sound the best in that tempo and if you play it faster, it sounds too fast.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Charvel So Cal
Ibanez Blazer
Yamaha FG720S-12
Tokai TB48
Laney VC30
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#33
aside from backing tracks, i'll raise something i should have put more emphasis on: what about light shows?
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

Quote by jongtr
I want to be Hail when I grow up.
Zoomyrs1
Registered User
Join date: May 2004
11 IQ
#34
Quote by Nietsche

I know those words, but I can't decipher what they mean when put together like this.


Polymetric, many meter

Meter as in timing, time scale as in 4/4, 4/2, 3/4, 3/3 and whatnot. I guess you could use polyrythmic, but I've always heard that used more of a compositional tool.

I actually started playing sax and upright bass, find a score by David Holsinger and check some of those beasts out. He REALLY REALLY liked to play with the time signatures, usually in the middle of a nice long string of 16th triplets or something goofy like that.

If I remember right the Imperial March from Star Wars was a little wooly in that department as well, but that was like 18 years ago, I could definitely be wrong.