KrymsinViking
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#1
Hey guys,

In the next few days I will be picking up my first tube head (a 6505+) and my first cab. Iv decided on getting an Avatar 4x12 but haven't quite decided which speakers I want in it. I'm basically bouncing back and forth between Celestion v30s and Eminence Swamp Thang/Texas Heat combo. The purpose of this thread is to gather more information so that I can more accurately make my decision.

I know that speaker efficiency plays a role in how loud the amp will be and how it would sound at certain volumes. In various threads iv heard that Eminence builds more efficient speakers than Celestion, but also that their ratings might be a tad optimistic. Is this true or are the differences in efficiency mostly irrelevant? (By that I mean that they are essentially the same efficiency all things being equal)

Also wondering if anyone has any comments to make for the 6505+ with the Thangs/Heat obviously Iv heard about how well 6505s and v30s go together but less about this combo.

Lastly which of the two speaker combinations should I go for? I'm looking for a classic thrash tone like Metallica, Slayer, and Megadeth.

Thanks in advance for all help.
Dave_Mc
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#2
yeah from what i hear eminence are, on paper, more efficient, but in practice, not really because they're rated more optimistically as you said. in my limited experience (of trying like models), this is true. my gh128 (rated around 100dB) is no louder than my greenbacks (rated at 98dB), maybe even marginally less loud.

i wouldn't get texas heats and swamp thangs for those tones.

that being said, i'm not sure i'd get a 6505 either. I'd want something hot rod marshally for those tones (most of them anyway... newer metallica tones are more modern-sounding, so it does depend on exactly what you want).

I'm not sure i'd want v30s for those tones either... g1265s or g12t75s might be the thing.
Quote by classicrocker01
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LP_CL
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#3
I never tried eminence speakers (maybe I should), but tbh, with a 120W amp efficiency of the speaker is quite irrelevant. It will play a bigger part when you play a 5 or 10 Watt amp and have to compete with a loud drummer. But with a 6505 you won't ever have troubles due to efficiency of your speakers.
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#4
I have a Fender Frontman 25R of which I installed a Eminence Rajun Cajun 10" speaker over a month ago. This speaker turned what was a pretty sounding generic amp, into a true tone monster. It now has a tube tone with a sound that does not break up at high volumes. Plus there is also a major increase in volume as well. This sounds more like a 40-50 watt instead of a 25 watt SS combo amp and could definately be used for small club gigs with ease. I'll definately go with Eminence any day of the week.
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#5
Quote by LP_CL
I never tried eminence speakers (maybe I should), but tbh, with a 120W amp efficiency of the speaker is quite irrelevant. It will play a bigger part when you play a 5 or 10 Watt amp and have to compete with a loud drummer. But with a 6505 you won't ever have troubles due to efficiency of your speakers.


that's a good point.
Quote by classicrocker01
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KrymsinViking
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#6
Quote by Dave_Mc
yeah from what i hear eminence are, on paper, more efficient, but in practice, not really because they're rated more optimistically as you said. in my limited experience (of trying like models), this is true. my gh128 (rated around 100dB) is no louder than my greenbacks (rated at 98dB), maybe even marginally less loud.

i wouldn't get texas heats and swamp thangs for those tones.

that being said, i'm not sure i'd get a 6505 either. I'd want something hot rod marshally for those tones (most of them anyway... newer metallica tones are more modern-sounding, so it does depend on exactly what you want).

I'm not sure i'd want v30s for those tones either... g1265s or g12t75s might be the thing.


I'm actually happy with the 6505+ iv put in alot of playtime with the floor model at my local GC, but thanks for the advice. As I said its just my first tube amp and I'm sure it won't be my last. I'd really like one of the Kerry King Marshalls but that's farther down the road.

Quote by LP_CL
I never tried eminence speakers (maybe I should), but tbh, with a 120W amp efficiency of the speaker is quite irrelevant. It will play a bigger part when you play a 5 or 10 Watt amp and have to compete with a loud drummer. But with a 6505 you won't ever have troubles due to efficiency of your speakers.


I wasn't worried about the efficiency for the higher end, from time to time ill have to keep this somewhat quiet which is when the efficiency would factor in. Like I said I'v play tested the amp and it still sounds good at managable volumes I just didn't want to have super efficient speakers that might make it unruly to try and tame.
LP_CL
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#7
Ooh, I see, so you want them to be as inefficient as possible. Can't really help you with that, but seems like V30's and those eminence speakers aren't what you're looking for then.
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red.guitar
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#8
If you're looking for the most efficeint speaker, it would be the eminence cannabis rex. It's made with a hemp cone, which from what I understand, makes it more efficient then any paper cone speaker.

I would recommend looking at WGS vet 30's. The Vet 30's are a vintage 30 knock off, that go for like $70 a piece. Much cheaper then buying any celestion or eminence. I see a lot of people around here use v30's with their 5150, 6505, ... etc. It's a cheap alternative.
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unplugged89
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#9
Quote by red.guitar
If you're looking for the most efficeint speaker, it would be the eminence cannabis rex. It's made with a hemp cone, which from what I understand, makes it more efficient then any paper cone speaker.


I just a Fender Blues Junior III Limited Edition with one of those speakers in it.

In the store I was dialling in the same settings to both amps and switching the lead between them to hear the difference, and I have to say the speaker changes so much about the amp. The most relevant change to this thread is that it was noticeably louder than the standard speaker in the fender. Which is a good thing. Loud = good. So...


Yup.


It's made of hemp, which is also good. So hemp = good.

So therefore we can deduce that hemp = loud...


I've gotten a bit lost in this post.


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Blktiger0
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#10
If you want Thrash tones, you're not looking for Vintage 30's, really. Those are known for their upper-mid spike. Thrash tones are known for their "scooped" sound, which came from using Celestion G12T-75's. In addition, you are getting an amp that is know for it's midrange grind, so getting V30's probably isn't your best choice. In addition, it's the mids of a guitar tone that make it sound louder, making the V30 a fairly loud sounding speaker, considering it's efficiency.

Now, keep in mind that Kerry King of Slayer uses Celestion G12K-100's. If I were you, I would look into pairing those with either the G12T-75's or you could probably pair those with a V30 and be okay. If you really like Slayer tones, you could get just the K-100's, but I seriously wouldn't recommend that. I would really say that your best bet would be T-75's and K-100's in an X pattern.

I would like to add (just because I'm kinda a Thrash nut and my insides won't let me not say it) Dave is right saying that you really aren't buying the right amp. The 6505 is really meant for stuff along the lines of Metalcore and maybe some Groove Metal. For example, Machine Head uses 6505's, Bullet for my Valentine uses 6505's, All That Remains, As I Lay Dying, August Burns Red, all use 6505's. However, The Thrash scene was started on Hotrodded Marshalls with a boost pedal in front of them. All of the Big 4 were using JCM800's with some type of Overdrive in front of them and Marhsall 1960 cabs loaded with G12T-75's.

After that, it varies quite a bit. A few of them have signature amps now. Scott Ian and Kirk Hammett both have Signature Randalls andKerry King has a Signature JCM800. Dave Mustaine uses a JVM410H. In fact, a few of them have used 5150 amps, but only briefly. James uses Diezel amps now, but he and Kirk both used Mesas for a while. Triple Recs, Mark II C+'s, Stillettos, Triaxis, and I think even Tremoverbs at one point. A few of them haveused the Bogner Uberschall, and most of them used Marshall JCM2000 DSL's. A few of them have used Vintage 30 speakers, but, again, it was a brief thing.

So in the end, it kinda depends on what era of who's sound you're looking for, but if it's Slayer or Megadeth, you need to go Marshall no matter what point it was. If it's Metallica, it can vary a good bit. Anthrax is the same. If it's any of their early stuff, Marshall, but after the first few albums, it starts to get crazy. Still, most of Thrash is Marshall.
KrymsinViking
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#11
Wow, thanks for going in depth there. As I said though I'm settled on the 6505+. I'm not buying it blind, iv spent a good amount of time playing it. I like it for thrash even if it doesn't sound exactly like those guys. Sometime in the future ill get a Marshall but for now the 6505 is what I'm going with.
Blktiger0
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#12
No problem

Big 4 Thrash is my area of expertise when it comes to gear.

If you like the 6505+, then get it and don't look back. It's a great amp, and really, it's pretty much an American-voiced 2-channel Hotrodded JCM800 when it comes down to it. The style of cleans, the idea of using it for Metal, then the fact that it's more American in it's voicing mean that it could certainly be used for Thrash. I mean, Groove Metal is just the Post-Thrash movement, and most of the bands that play it are pretty much just Modern Thrash, considering there's very little difference between the two. It basically comes down to tempo. Slow Thrash down a little and it's Groove. Slow Groove down a good bit and it's Sludge. Obviously, there are some tone differences, but genre definitions don't care about guitar tone.

For the speakers, though, I would see if you can go to a Music Store nearby and try your amp with a Mesa Rectifier cab and then with a Marshall 1960 cab. The Recto cab has V30's and the 1960 has G12T-75's. If they happen to have an old Marshall MF400 cab, it would have G12K-100's in it. They might be K-85's, but they are the exact same speaker, just a different name.

If they DO have an MF400, see if you can try it with each of the other two cabs. That'll give you an idea of what each speakers sounds like on it's own and what it sounds like mixed with the K-100's. Hell, You might as well try the V30's and T-75's together, too if you do that.
Last edited by Blktiger0 at Jan 2, 2013,
Dave_Mc
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#13
Quote by KrymsinViking
(a) I'm actually happy with the 6505+ iv put in alot of playtime with the floor model at my local GC, but thanks for the advice. As I said its just my first tube amp and I'm sure it won't be my last. I'd really like one of the Kerry King Marshalls but that's farther down the road.


(b) I wasn't worried about the efficiency for the higher end, from time to time ill have to keep this somewhat quiet which is when the efficiency would factor in. Like I said I'v play tested the amp and it still sounds good at managable volumes I just didn't want to have super efficient speakers that might make it unruly to try and tame.


(a) ah no worries, if you like it, that's fair enough. it's definitely a nice high gain amp.

(b) if you want to keep the volume down i'd probably avoid v30s... not that the kind of speakers you're likely to be looking at will make tons of difference (no-one makes an 85dB metal-voiced speaker, lol), but v30s are more or less as loud as it gets, speaker-wise. g12t75s or g1265s are a little quieter.
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Perverockstar69
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#14
V30s work great on low volumes IMO, try them with T75s, Ippon said thats a good speakers combo for high gain...

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Blktiger0
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#15
It's not that V30's sound bad at low volumes, it's that they're a really efficient speaker with a spike in frequencies that make your guitar sound louder. They aren't a speaker you want if you want to get your amp canking a little more at lower volumes. They would also make your volume knob more touchy at low volumes.

They sound great, that's not the issue, the issue is the volume level they create.
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#16
I run a Bugera 6262, so basically a 6505, through my own 2x12 cabinet loaded with Eminence The Govenor speakers. One word. Epic.

I too played around with mixing speakers a little but always came back to the Govenors...
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#17
^is the governor the eminence version of the green back?

most guitar speakers tend to be rated around 95 to 101 dB. while that is a bit, i wouldn't worry too much about speaker efficiency when choosing speakers.

if i want to be 'quiet' i tend to run software through computer speakers, this gives quite a drastic volume cut.
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#18
Quote by gumbilicious
^is the governor the eminence version of the green back?

most guitar speakers tend to be rated around 95 to 101 dB. while that is a bit, i wouldn't worry too much about speaker efficiency when choosing speakers.

if i want to be 'quiet' i tend to run software through computer speakers, this gives quite a drastic volume cut.



Here's what I remember of the Emis I have loaded in various cabs:
V30 - Governor
Greenback - Private Jack
12T75 - Man O' War
G12T65 - Tonespotter
CL80 - Red Ryder
Alnico Blue - Red Fang

At least compared to the various cabs with Celestions.
Perverockstar69
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#19
Quote by Blktiger0
It's not that V30's sound bad at low volumes, it's that they're a really efficient speaker with a spike in frequencies that make your guitar sound louder. They aren't a speaker you want if you want to get your amp canking a little more at lower volumes. They would also make your volume knob more touchy at low volumes.

They sound great, that's not the issue, the issue is the volume level they create.


I can play at whisper volumes with my PPC212OB (V30s)

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#20
Quote by Ippon
Here's what I remember of the Emis I have loaded in various cabs:
V30 - Governor
Greenback - Private Jack
12T75 - Man O' War
G12T65 - Tonespotter
CL80 - Red Ryder
Alnico Blue - Red Fang

At least compared to the various cabs with Celestions.


damn, they should have that on their sight somewhere
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crabstampede
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#21
I can attest to the fact that Man-O-Wars are awesome for a really punchy and tight sound with lots of breakup. Texas Heats, on the other hand...


Just ****ing brutal.

EDIT: Speaker efficiency is really not a big issue. You truthfully want the lowest possible amount of volume coming off the stage, but a couple dB (the smallest amount of loudness you can discern) is not going to make or break your rig. Go for tone, my friend. Always tone.
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Last edited by crabstampede at Jan 4, 2013,
Tremolo Bum
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#22
I would get all v30's or 2 v30s and 2 g12t75's personally.
I have an avatar 212 with a v30 and g12h30 and it sounds good with my 6505+.

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#23
i thought the wizards were v30s.
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#24
i like K100's alone or mixed with V30's i have two cabs like that, and a K100 4x12" massive sounding speakers.

when i had the 6505 like forever ago i had them into V30's and found that to be better than any of my other cabs. the 6505 was flipped after about a week later i wanted something different
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KrymsinViking
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#25
I'v been second guessing myself about going with the avatar. I just feel like I might be over thinking it. A part of me wants to just get a Marshall 1960a or something and be done with it.
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#26
It will play a bigger part when you play a 5 or 10 Watt amp and have to compete with a loud drummer.
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#27
Quote by KrymsinViking
I'v been second guessing myself about going with the avatar. I just feel like I might be over thinking it. A part of me wants to just get a Marshall 1960a or something and be done with it.

Avatar cabs are great for the price, very similar to Mesa and Orange. If you decide to get something else, the only thing I would recommend would be a Mesa 4x12. There isn't really anything else that will outright beat an avatar in a side by side shootout.

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Zoomyrs1
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#28
Quote by Tremolo Bum
Avatar cabs are great for the price, very similar to Mesa and Orange. If you decide to get something else, the only thing I would recommend would be a Mesa 4x12. There isn't really anything else that will outright beat an avatar in a side by side shootout.


+1

I have an OLD Mesa 4x12 slant half open/half closed with Black Shadows (licensed Celestions) that has taken everything that my hot-rodded Peavey Ultra 120 can throw at it....since the '90s

Playing a 30w tube I would worry about speaker volume, a 120w tube, not so much. Tone is more important, and by the time you have the master up high enough to wake up the tubes, its loud enough to make your ear drums crackle anyway.

That Ultra/Mesa combination has made a couple of JCM800 users ask me to turn it down so they could hear what they were doing I may add.
Wesbanez
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#29
Quote by gumbilicious
^is the governor the eminence version of the green back?


Im pretty sure its comparable to the V30, although with a slightly different lower mid range response.
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#30
Quote by Perverockstar69
V30s work great on low volumes IMO, try them with T75s, Ippon said thats a good speakers combo for high gain...


oh yeah, i didn't mean to say that v30s didn't sound good at lower volumes- just that (if you run them hard) they're loud speakers. if you want to push the amp slightly more, then they're not the speaker to get as they won't let you do that as much as lower efficiency speakers.

Quote by Ippon
Here's what I remember of the Emis I have loaded in various cabs:
V30 - Governor
Greenback - Private Jack
12T75 - Man O' War
G12T65 - Tonespotter
CL80 - Red Ryder
Alnico Blue - Red Fang

At least compared to the various cabs with Celestions.


yeah i think that's correct (from what i've read, anyway- the only redcoat i've tried is the red fang). the gb128 is like a slightly more laid-back greenback, and the v12 like a more laid-back v30, as well. and the wizard is a g12h30. i think the tonker is a fane style speaker.

i actually always wonder what the patriot series speakers are based on. I'm guessing they're based on various jensens/utahs/oxfords/jbls and the like, but have no clue which ones

Quote by crabstampede

EDIT: Speaker efficiency is really not a big issue. You truthfully want the lowest possible amount of volume coming off the stage, but a couple dB (the smallest amount of loudness you can discern) is not going to make or break your rig. Go for tone, my friend. Always tone.


agreed. it does make some difference, but (except for in very specific circumstances) rarely enough that it makes sense to go for an unsuitably-toned speaker.
Quote by classicrocker01
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woad_yurt
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#31
An efficiency side note:

I learned recently that, using the same speakers, a 2x12 is 3 db more efficient than a 1x12 and a 4x12 is 3 db more efficient than a 2x12. A speaker like a 16 ohm Jensen MOD 12-50 (94.5 db sensitivity,) done with 2 pairs wired in parallel and then linked up in parallel, gives one a 100.5 db overall sensitivity rating. Do that with speakers rated at 100 db and you've got an overall rating of 106 db, a major difference* It's something to think about if you want some power tube hair in your sound at volume.

If you want more grit at useable volumes and you don't need a 4x12 for visual impact, you may want to consider a 2x12 or even a 1x12 loaded with some truly killer speakers. I have two 1x12s loaded with some old 200 watt ceramic JBLs and haven't ever had to use both simultaneously. One of 'em will handle a cranked 100 watt Marshall without any muddiness or worry and will make an entire bar full of people squirm in pain if you care to do so. I've found that top-of-line speakers in less quantity get the job done just as well or better than run-of-the-mill ones do in greater quantity. There's also that much less weight & bulk to hump around.

* Feel free to correct my math if I'm incorrect.
Last edited by woad_yurt at Jan 4, 2013,
Van Noord
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#32
Also, Celestion and Eminence both have different ways of determning SPL (speaker efficiency). I would imagine Jensen, and Weber do as well. There isn't an exact, consistant method used by all speaker manufacturers.
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Dave_Mc
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#33
yeah. weber's way is pretty novel. they just don't bother telling you what the efficiency is.


EDIT: obviously that's a joke. they may well tell you if you email them to ask. but they don't list the efficiencies/sensitivities on their website.
Quote by classicrocker01
Only on UG would I say I got engaged and bought a jet city and get congratulated on the amp


gumbilicious
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#34
Quote by woad_yurt
* Feel free to correct my math if I'm incorrect.


your math is pretty sound. the bump in efficiency is only part of the story, if you feel like reading some more of what is going on then check this out

http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/gumbilicious/blog/110903/

it's mainly about mutual coupling, and the effect it has on your tone.

Quote by Dave_Mc
yeah. weber's way is pretty novel. they just don't bother telling you what the efficiency is.

EDIT: obviously that's a joke. they may well tell you if you email them to ask. but they don't list the efficiencies/sensitivities on their website.


it's a pretty safe bet that guitar speakers are going to be in the upper 90's to low 100's, i have heard they don't post sensitivity cuz of all the different testing methods and 'magic numbers' derived from the process.
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Dave_Mc
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#35
^ yeah the vast majority are in that range. some of the webers have pretty small magnets, though (thinking about the cheaper alnicos here), and they may well be in the lower 90s. I agree with you that a lot of figures that are posted aren't much use, but i still reckon a rough figure (as long as said figure isn't taking the piss) is better than nothing.
Quote by classicrocker01
Only on UG would I say I got engaged and bought a jet city and get congratulated on the amp


KrymsinViking
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#36
Quote by Tremolo Bum
Avatar cabs are great for the price, very similar to Mesa and Orange. If you decide to get something else, the only thing I would recommend would be a Mesa 4x12. There isn't really anything else that will outright beat an avatar in a side by side shootout.


It's not that I question Avatar's products, just that I think I'd rather get the Marshall cab. Once I have a chance to play around with different speakers and form an educated opinion ill probably get an Avatar. The used Marshall cabs are also cheaper so I could pick up a TS-9 to go with the 6505 too.