rockingamer2
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#2
Scales are scales no matter what. What you should be concerned about his how floppy your strings will get.
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Ahteh
no
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#3
As long as all 6 strings are tuned down the same amount of steps you can still use the same shapes, yes. You'll obviously have to move them accordingly though.
AlanHB
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#4
Scales will still work if you have no strings on the guitar.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#5
Haha What
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ccannon1
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#6
I play in drop F and scales don't seem to work for me

my solution was to just palm mute the open F string, people seem to love it
jthm_guitarist
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#7
Quote by ccannon1
I play in drop F and scales don't seem to work for me

my solution was to just palm mute the open F string, people seem to love it

it's called METAL!!!

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SGstriker
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#8
Quote by ccannon1
I play in drop F and scales don't seem to work for me

my solution was to just palm mute the open F string, people seem to love it


-0--00-0000---00000--0-0-0-0-0-0-0--00000000----




As long as you have thick enough strings and your guitar is setup for them, it shouldn't matter how low you tune, as long as they aren't completely slacked.

Also? Drop Z is the way to go.
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AlanHB
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#9
Quote by ccannon1
I play in drop F and scales don't seem to work for me

my solution was to just palm mute the open F string, people seem to love it


Err can you play scales in standard tuning?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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dietermoreno
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#11
Quote by SGstriker


As long as you have thick enough strings and your guitar is setup for them, it shouldn't matter how low you tune, as long as they aren't completely slacked.



So normal strings won't work? What is the reason why normal strings won't work?

So if I tune to drop b, does that mean that from 9th fret to 12th fret being one whole step becomes from 15th to 18th fret being one whole step? So that means then I ignore the dots on the fretboard and have to learn where the new intervals are on the fret board?
EmilGD
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Join date: Feb 2008
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#12
No it means your strings would be more like spaghetti, rather than bowstrings, except the part where you eat it.

EDIT: And 9-12th/15-18th is one and a half step. And yes the position of the notes does of course change, in E Standard the lowest B is on the 7th fret of the low E string, and two octave higher B on the high E string is also on the 7th. In drop B the unison B on the low E string is on the 12th fret, and there is a B an octave lower on the open, while on the high E string the B is now on the 10th fret.
Last edited by EmilGD at Jan 27, 2013,
dietermoreno
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#13
Quote by EmilGD


EDIT: And 9-12th/15-18th is one and a half step. And yes the position of the notes does of course change, in E Standard the lowest B is on the 7th fret of the low E string, and two octave higher B on the high E string is also on the 7th. In drop B the unison B on the low E string is on the 12th fret, and there is a B an octave lower on the open, while on the high E string the B is now on the 10th fret.


I don't get it. What is "unison b"?

Is 8th fret to 10th fret one whole step, one half step,
or is it half step + 1/3 step = 3/6 step + 2/6 step = 5/6 step?

Then what is the logic behind the positioning of a dot on the fret board at every odd fret up to 9 and then a dot at 12 and then a dot at 15 and then restarting every odd fret?

I thought every dot represented a change of one whole step, meaning that some notes take larger intervals, so to play some notes it requiers more frets?
steven seagull
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#14
To be honest I don't think there's an awful lot of logic behind the location of the dots, they certainly don't mean what you think they mean.

I could be wrong though, I'll wait for someone to post the actual reason
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rockingamer2
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#15
Ignore the dots.

Half step = one fret
Whole step = two frets

All the natural notes (C D E F G A B) are separated by whole steps, with the exception of E-F, and B-C, which are separated by a half step.


Digression: Why are the dots where they are? Never thought to ask that question.
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Last edited by rockingamer2 at Jan 27, 2013,
EmilGD
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#16
I don't think the dots have any other purpose than making it easier to visually navigate the fretboard (in a positionwise non-musical way).
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
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#17
The scales are the same. They just sound lower. Just like if you play a D chord in drop D, in drop C it would be C chord. It's the same fingerings but the pitch is different. Same thing with scales. If you play D major scale in drop D tuning, with the same fingerings in drop C it would be C major scale. Same fingerings, different pitch.

But when I play in lower tunings and I play the fingering of E major chord (022100), I will still think it as an E major chord, even if I was playing in C standard.
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dietermoreno
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#18
Quote by MaggaraMarine
The scales are the same. They just sound lower. Just like if you play a D chord in drop D, in drop C it would be C chord. It's the same fingerings but the pitch is different. Same thing with scales. If you play D major scale in drop D tuning, with the same fingerings in drop C it would be C major scale. Same fingerings, different pitch.

But when I play in lower tunings and I play the fingering of E major chord (022100), I will still think it as an E major chord, even if I was playing in C standard.


Okay, makes sense.


Quote by rockingamer2
Ignore the dots.

Half step = one fret
Whole step = two frets

All the natural notes (C D E F G A B) are separated by whole steps, with the exception of E-F, and B-C, which are separated by a half step.


Digression: Why are the dots where they are? Never thought to ask that question.


So then for the 6th string (low string) the 12th fret to the 13th fret is one half step and is the location of E and F respectively in standard E tuning, and then the 7th fret to the 8th fret is one half step and is the location of b and C respectively in standard E tuning, correct?

So then for the 6th string (low string) the 16th fret to the 17th fret is one half step and is the location of E and F respectively in drop b tuning, and then the 11th fret to the 12th fret is one half step and is the location of b and C respectively in drop b tuning, correct?

Wouldn't having thicker gauge strings decrease performance in picking techniques that need thin flexible strings, such as tapping, hammer ons, pull offs, economy picking, and sweep picking?
Last edited by dietermoreno at Jan 27, 2013,
cdgraves
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#19
No techniques work if your strings sound like saggy mattress springs. You need a certain amount of tension for the string to "snap" past the edge of a pick or finger.

You have a guitar, right? Just tune it down to B and listen for yourself why you need really thick strings for tuning below Eb.

edit: Tune the high E string up and down -last-
Last edited by cdgraves at Jan 27, 2013,
liampje
Wannabe music theorist :)
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#20
Quote by steven seagull
To be honest I don't think there's an awful lot of logic behind the location of the dots, they certainly don't mean what you think they mean.

I could be wrong though, I'll wait for someone to post the actual reason

It makes it easier to orientate on what fret you are playing, playing nylon string guitars (mostly no fret markers) suck.
D..W..
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#21
I think the guitar would look weird if the dots were on all the even frets, but it made sense to put one on 12 because it's the middle and the octave fret, thus it's a handy note to be able to find easily. Otherwise, the dots really don't mean crap.
If you tune down TOO low, the intonation can get screwed up (I'm not sure the exact science behind it, but that's why basses and baritone guitars have a longer scale length, the lower notes require a larger fret distance to make the right note. Kind of like the big frets at the low end of your guitar and teeny ones at the high end) and make you sound perpetually out-of-tune (unless you have a fanned-fret guitar, but most of us can't afford those), so that's something I'd be careful with. To answer the original question, scales will always work. Just figure out how to adjust where you play the bottom string to play the right notes if you use it at all. So it's not the exact same shape, but if you know the notes on the fretboard (Learn them, it's not that bad and it helps. A lot.) then it's easier to figure out what the shape should be.
dietermoreno
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#22
Quote by cdgraves
No techniques work if your strings sound like saggy mattress springs. You need a certain amount of tension for the string to "snap" past the edge of a pick or finger.

You have a guitar, right? Just tune it down to B and listen for yourself why you need really thick strings for tuning below Eb.

edit: Tune the high E string up and down -last-


So does that mean that every time I tune my guitar I should change the strings to a thicker gauge when I want to tune to drop C and the standard gauge when I want to tune to drop D?

That would be ridiculous to change the strings every time I tune my guitar, especially if one song I played was in drop C and the next song I wanted to play was in drop D (I only have one guitar, so don't tell me to buy another guitar, that's like when the car mechanic asks me if I have another car to drive while he is repairing my car).

Yes I did try to tune to drop b with my guitar and it was tuned to drop b but it didn't work. All of the notes sounded terrible, even though I thought I simply dropped the strings 5th-1st down 2 whole steps and the 6th string down 3 whole steps, it was perpetually out of tune when I try to play scale patterns. What is the reason for my guitar being perpetualy out of tune when I tune down to drop b and try to play scale patterns? Is it a sign that I should stop using scale patterns and should learn how to construct all notes of scales on any fret on any string from scratch using music theory? Is it because the strings are too saggy because they are too thin?
Last edited by dietermoreno at Jan 28, 2013,
rockingamer2
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#23
When you use a drop tuning, all you have to do is shift the notes on the sixth sting up two frets.

Your guitar is out of tune when you tune to drop B is because it's not meant to tune that low. It doesn't matter what you try to play, it will likely be out of tune. It has nothing to do with the scales you're playing. Thicker strings can help keep things in tune, but there's only so much they can do.

If you want to play in different tunings that can't be easily switched between, get another guitar for both tunings. That's the reality of the situation.
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dietermoreno
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#24
Quote by rockingamer2
When you use a drop tuning, all you have to do is shift the notes on the sixth sting up two frets.

Your guitar is out of tune when you tune to drop B is because it's not meant to tune that low. It doesn't matter what you try to play, it will likely be out of tune. It has nothing to do with the scales you're playing. Thicker strings can help keep things in tune, but there's only so much they can do.

If you want to play in different tunings that can't be easily switched between, get another guitar for both tunings. That's the reality of the situation.


okay.

What tunings is a standard electric guitar meant to be switched between with out necesitating a change of string gauge?

Do drop D and drop C work with no change of string gauge?

Drop D and drop C have been working just fine with me for years with out using a different string gauge.

but when I tried to tune to drop b to play a Suicide Silence song then everything went to Hell.
rockingamer2
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#25
Quote by dietermoreno

What tunings is a standard electric guitar meant to be switched between with out necesitating a change of string gauge?

Ummm...
Quote by dietermoreno
but when I tried to tune to drop b to play a Suicide Silence song then everything went to Hell.


I don't know the specifics, but I think you have your answer.

If you want more info, the Electric Guitar forum is the better place for your question. This is about guitar, not music theory.
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dietermoreno
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#26
Quote by rockingamer2
Ummm...


I don't know the specifics, but I think you have your answer.

If you want more info, the Electric Guitar forum is the better place for your question. This is about guitar, not music theory.


Well this is the Ultimate Guitar forums, but okay, I think I answered my own question what tunings work with out a change of strings: standard E, drop D, and drop C.

Okay I will ask in the electric guitar forum for more info if I need it now that the music theory part of it is understood. The music theory part was about the intervals when tuning down.
Last edited by dietermoreno at Jan 28, 2013,
rockingamer2
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#27
Quote by dietermoreno
Well this is the Ultimate Guitar forums, but okay, I think I answered my own question what tunings work with out a change of strings: standard E, drop D, and drop C.

Okay I will ask in the electric guitar forum for more info if I need it now that the music theory part of it is understood. The music theory part was about the intervals when tuning down.

It's great that you can read the title of this website, so I'm sure that you can read the words under the title of this sub-forum:

Grab your axe, come on in and discuss Music Theory, Writing & Composition, Improvising, Sight reading and more!
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cdgraves
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#28
Quote by dietermoreno
(I only have one guitar, so don't tell me to buy another guitar, that's like when the car mechanic asks me if I have another car to drive while he is repairing my car).

Is it a sign that I should stop using scale patterns and should learn how to construct all notes of scales on any fret on any string from scratch using music theory? Is it because the strings are too saggy because they are too thin?


Well you are expecting a bit much of one little guitar and one set of strings. No string gauge can accommodate a tuning difference of a 4th (B to E). A set of .10 gauge strings is really only good for standard tuning and maybe tuning up to open E. For Eb and D, you should probably get at least .11s. If you want drop D, you can get a set of "Heavy Bottom" strings that have a thicker low E string.

Your strings sound saggy because they are too thin to played at low tension. Think back to high school physics: Pitch is related to both string thickness and tension. If you want to reduce tension, you have to increase the diameter to maintain the pitch (and timbre).

Look at the thickness pattern on your strings already - the E is way thicker than A, which is way thicker than the D, etc. Imagine how thick a B string would have to be, then.

You may have better luck buying a 7 string set and omitting the high E. 7 string guitars are tuned B E A D G B E, so the lowest string is already designed to play a B and still sound good. Watch out, though, because your nut slot may not be wide enough for a B string.

edit: what gauge strings are you using now? They're only $5, go to the store and get some thicker strings to see how they sound. This is something you can totally investigate for yourself with a little thought and effort.
Last edited by cdgraves at Jan 28, 2013,
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
Join date: Oct 2009
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#29
Quote by dietermoreno
So does that mean that every time I tune my guitar I should change the strings to a thicker gauge when I want to tune to drop C and the standard gauge when I want to tune to drop D?

That would be ridiculous to change the strings every time I tune my guitar, especially if one song I played was in drop C and the next song I wanted to play was in drop D (I only have one guitar, so don't tell me to buy another guitar, that's like when the car mechanic asks me if I have another car to drive while he is repairing my car).

Yes I did try to tune to drop b with my guitar and it was tuned to drop b but it didn't work. All of the notes sounded terrible, even though I thought I simply dropped the strings 5th-1st down 2 whole steps and the 6th string down 3 whole steps, it was perpetually out of tune when I try to play scale patterns. What is the reason for my guitar being perpetualy out of tune when I tune down to drop b and try to play scale patterns? Is it a sign that I should stop using scale patterns and should learn how to construct all notes of scales on any fret on any string from scratch using music theory? Is it because the strings are too saggy because they are too thin?

I have played in C standard tuning with 09-42 set on my Les Paul. But why you sound out of tune is because the strings become so easy to bend that you automatically bend them a bit when you play. That's why you sound out of tune. But if you want to use drop D and drop C tunings, I would advise to use a bit heavier strings (if you are currently using 09 set, maybe try 10 or 11 set). You can still tune them up (my friend uses 12 set in standard tuning) but they will be harder to bend. Learning to construct scales and stuff by yourself is of course good but it isn't the solution for this problem. It has nothing to do with what notes you are playing, it has to do with your strings having too little tension so you automatically bend them a bit and it sounds out of tune. If you are playing in drop D, drop C or drop B tunings, maybe buy a set with heavier bottom strings. Maybe try 11 set.

But really, is it necessary to change tunings all the time? Are you using backing tracks? If not, it won't sound that much different if you just play all the songs in the same tuning. The pitch will be different but does it matter? I wouldn't change my tuning all the time.

If you need to change tuning all the time, you need another guitar.

EDIT: ^ I have always used 09 set. I use them if I play in Eb or E, sometimes even D but I rarely change my tuning from standard.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Jan 28, 2013,
cdgraves
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2013
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#30
depends on technique and playing situation. Everything I practice is intended for the stage, and it's definitely not heavy music, so I can't have anything sound less-than-great. A lot of drop tuning music is played with lots of distortion, chunky staccato power chords, and palm muting, which all compensate or hide sagginess.

Playing something Michael Jackson's "Beat It", on the other hand, I really have to rely on the ensemble to cover up the pitchy sag on the Eb. It just sounds like ass by itself.
dietermoreno
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2012
120 IQ
#31
Okay, well I pretty much never play in standard E tuning, so I guess I could go with a thicker gauge that is acceptable for drop D and drop C.

As for drop b, then I guess I will ignore songs in drop b until I can afford a new guitar.
cdgraves
Registered User
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#32
I think a 7 string may be what you really need. It'll have a low B string.
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
Join date: Oct 2009
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#33
Drop B =/= seven string tuning. B standard is pretty much the same as 7 string tuning. If you prefer drop tuning and don't go lower than drop B, you don't want a 7 string guitar. And if you went lower than drop B, you might still prefer a 6 string.

It's not only about having the low B string, it's also about fingerings. Drop B is way different to B standard. It's more close to C# standard.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
cdgraves
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2013
10 IQ
#34
For some reason I assumed it was C and B standard. I didn't realize actual drop B was so common

edit: now I see what he did - taking Drop D down a third.

If you think about it, though, tuning a 7 string up to Drop B would obviate the tone issues you get dropping strings. You could bash them without muting and there'd be no sag. Plus it preserves your range
Last edited by cdgraves at Jan 28, 2013,
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
Join date: Oct 2009
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#35
Quote by cdgraves
For some reason I assumed it was C and B standard. I didn't realize actual drop B was so common

edit: now I see what he did - taking Drop D down a third.

If you think about it, though, tuning a 7 string up to Drop B would obviate the tone issues you get dropping strings. You could bash them without muting and there'd be no sag. Plus it preserves your range

True. But 7 string feels different in your hands. And if you just buy heavy enough strings for a 6 string guitar, you won't have any issues. Many bands use 6 string guitars in pretty low tunings. There's also a thing called baritone guitar that has longer neck that allows you to use lighter strings hence tune lower without tension issues.

But I think Tony Iommi used 09 set in C# standard (but that was due to his fingers). Not completely sure, though. But standard tuning with 09 set had a bit too much string tension for his fingers, that's why their later stuff is in C# standard. Tony Iommi was also one of the first (if not the first) guitarists who used 09 string set (they weren't sold in the late 60s/early 70s and he used banjo strings, all the other strings were too heavy for him so he basically developed the 09 set for guitar). Just a BTW. I said this because some people think light strings can't be used for lower tunings than E standard.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
LiquidSkies
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2007
413 IQ
#36
Just get a baritone 6-string guitar then if you don't want to adjust to 7-string.
They are specifically being made for B and lower tunings and will sound clearer than a typical 6-string (which is called tenor guitar for a reason) ever will.
Hail
i'm a mean bully
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#38
a 7 string is completely different from a 6 string. realistically, if you were to do drop B on a 7, it'd make more sense to tune the 7th string down to f# because of the way you use the strings.

just string your instrument .10-.60 like everybody on the planet. how am i the only one on this forum who knows metal guitar? wtf happened to griff ffs, i don't even play guitar
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chakab
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#39
Quote by AlanHB
Scales will still work if you have no strings on the guitar.