Aukikco
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#1
I want to improve my skills in analyzing chord sequences, of my own songs and other random music, too. Looking for tools (software, websites etc) to make it a bit easier. Not just theory but a program where I could type in chords and it would suggest possible degree solutions. (Or some other genius idea that I haven't thought of.)

Suggestions?
Last edited by Aukikco at Feb 1, 2013,
rockingamer2
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#2
Degree solutions? What are you looking for?
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


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Sleepy__Head
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#3
I have a degree. Does that help?

...

Actually probably not because it's in philosophy.
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Aukikco
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#4
Quote by rockingamer2
Degree solutions? What are you looking for?

I'm imagining that just entering the chords in a nice little useful program won't give an absolutely correct answer that has no alternatives (two chords could be included in different keys/modes/whatever, and thus be interpreted as being many different scale degrees, the same as entering the notes in a guitar chord into a chord namer software doesn't result in just one absolutely correct answer).

Do correct me if my assumptions are completely ****ed
Last edited by Aukikco at Feb 1, 2013,
J-Dawg158
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#5
Train your ears. There's no better tool for analyzing music than that.
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Aukikco
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#6
Quote by J-Dawg158
Train your ears. There's no better tool for analyzing music than that.

I am. And then I'm looking for tools to complement.
rockingamer2
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#7
Quote by Aukikco
I'm imagining that just entering the chords in a nice little useful program won't give an absolutely correct answer that has no alternatives (two chords could be included in different keys/modes/whatever, and thus be interpreted as being many different scale degrees, the same as entering the notes in a guitar chord into a chord namer software doesn't result in just one absolutely correct answer).

Do correct me if my assumptions are completely ****ed

I still don't understand. Just work on your ear and develop your understanding of theory and you won't need some program to do... whatever you've typed up there.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


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Sleepy__Head
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#8
The problem is that when you actually need that app your phone will die.

The most portable solution is to carry it around in your brain. If your brain dies you're going to have much bigger problems than 'what chords would fit here'.

Seriously - just knuckle down and learn this shit. It's not like learning calculus, it's just a question of memorisation. All it takes is a bit of effort.
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Aukikco
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#9
I'm under the impression that normally, when you learn this stuff in a conservatory or such, there will be a teacher to give you feedback. You're given songs to analyze, and the teacher tells you the stuff you got wrong. I'm looking for a tool cause I don't have a teacher handy just now.

I can go learning by ear all I want, that just doesn't really help if I don't have a clue on where I'm doing wrong.
Sleepy__Head
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#10
I learned my stuff by teaching myself.

If you give us an example of where you're struggling we can get an idea of the problems you're having?
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oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
Aukikco
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#11
Ok. I'm been looking at several songs. For example, there's a chord progression Cm7-Dm7-A-Ab (followed by an Fm chord, but that's sort of an interlude or something, I was thinking of figuring out the first four yet).

Now, I carry a vague notion that many chord progressions do not really go along with the concept of scale degrees, and this probably could be one, since I can't find a stable key (the different chords have different notes, yes?). Am I onto something here? If I am, how precisely does one decide when a chord or two are just deviations from a set key, or not compatible with the idea of degrees at all?

What do you call that? Atonal?

Please be gentle to me. I'm trying my best to listen and evolve.
Last edited by Aukikco at Feb 1, 2013,
Sleepy__Head
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#12
OK. First thing: What's the song you're analysing?

Second thing: Atonal means no key at all, rather than just no stable key. Don't worry about that for now though.
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AeolianWolf
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#14
experience. that's the only tool that will really do you any good.

if you prefer to rely on external tools, calculators, software, and other such abominations, leave the music to those of us with the training and experience.

you can join us or you can look for shortcuts and fall short. choice is yours.
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Angusman60
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#15
The progression you are thinking of may not center around one "key". Like jazz, this song contains a "tonal center" versus a key.

You will find this also in music from the Impressionism period onward, as well. At a point, the chords become less about traditional harmonic function and more about common tones.

For instance, if you assume your tonal center is C, it is a logical step to go from Cm (C, Eb, G) to Dm (D,F,A). If you see, the Eb is a semi- tone away from the D. Note that in modern music "leading tones" are often used from a semi-tone above or below the tonic (ie. tritone substations). So, the composer used that to lead to the D and filled in the rest of the chord accordingly.

Then it is only natural to make the next chord A major since the A note is already contained in the D minor chord. Also, it is the V of the Dm, so, it makes since anyway. From there, the composer needed to make his way to F minor. So, he decided to use the same upward leading tone to take him to the Ab major chord (A to Ab notes). This then allowed him to use the 3rd of the Ab chord (C) as a common tone to shift the F minor. He then goes back to C minor and starts over by way of a Plagal cadence (Fm to Cm).

This is a pretty weird progressions to subject to a microanalysis (Roman numerals). So, often music theorists simply do as I have done, or, rely on set theory. Which is another monster.
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Last edited by Angusman60 at Feb 1, 2013,
Angusman60
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#16
On another note, however. I do agree with everyone. It is wise to start from the beginning and learn how to analyze for yourself.

For theory fundamentals, just check out www.musictheory.net or teoria.com
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cdgraves
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#17
I suggest reviewing your basic theory. I mean, there are only 11 different scale degrees, and maybe 8 of them are likely to show up in any one phrase. Guess and check would be easier than finding some program to do it.
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#18
Quote by cdgraves
I suggest reviewing your basic theory. I mean, there are only 11 different scale degrees, and maybe 8 of them are likely to show up in any one phrase. Guess and check would be easier than finding some program to do it.

Ummmm I'm pretty sure there are 12..

But otherwise I share your view
Si
cdgraves
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#19
actually I just counted and there are 17 different scale degrees: 16 solfege syllables plus bb7

Do di (1 #1)
ra re ri (b2, 2, #2)
me mi (b3, 3)
fa fi (4, #4)
se so si (b5, 5, #5)
le la (b6, 6)
"bb7" te ti (dim7, b7, 7)
Last edited by cdgraves at Feb 1, 2013,
limescout
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#20
You could get pedantic and say that the number of scale degrees is totally dependent on the tuning system at hand. 19-tet? β-scale? 3/2 Pythagorean? :p
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Hail
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#21
Quote by Sleepy__Head
I have a degree. Does that help?

...

Actually probably not because it's in philosophy.


i laughed a little too hard at this
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Angusman60
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#22
^^ Ditto
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Sleepy__Head
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#23
There are 12 different tones in 12TET, but every note in this system has at least one enharmonic note. There are not, and never have been, 17 different scale degrees in 12TET.
Quote by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
Aukikco
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#24
Angusman60, I thank you for your eye-opening analysis!
cdgraves
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#25
Quote by Sleepy__Head
There are 12 different tones in 12TET, but every note in this system has at least one enharmonic note. There are not, and never have been, 17 different scale degrees in 12TET.


I'm counting all the standard usage sharps and flats of each scale degree. #2 and b3 are functionally distinct.
Last edited by cdgraves at Feb 5, 2013,
Hail
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#26
Quote by cdgraves
I'm counting all the standard usage sharps and flats of each scale degree. #2 and b3 are functionally distinct.

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Sleepy__Head
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#27
Quote by cdgraves
I'm counting all the standard usage sharps and flats of each scale degree. #2 and b3 are functionally distinct.


And I'm counting the distinct tones.

It - I say again - is called 12TET because the scale's divided into 12 equal parts. There are 12 tones and no more.

Sure the context of each tone determines its function (and sometimes its name) but that doesn't mean there are more tones.

"More functions and/or more names = more tones" is like saying "When I call you Bill you actually become two distinct people - cdgraves and Bill".
Quote by Hail
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Last edited by Sleepy__Head at Feb 6, 2013,
mdc
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#28
Quote by Aukikco
Looking for tools (software, websites etc) to make it a bit easier. Not just theory but a program where I could type in chords and it would suggest possible degree solutions. (Or some other genius idea that I haven't thought of.)

Suggestions?

Yet another lazy fucking noob.
Aukikco
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#29
Quote by mdc
Yet another lazy fucking noob.

Yeah, if you call trying to learn something, and making use of a program/a person whose knowledge exceeds mine to point out where I'm making mistakes so that I can identify and thus correct them (not leaning on it to avoid doing the work but to check my answers), sure, you're absolutely right! Fucking lazy!

So fucking lazy... I hope I wasn't. Would be such a fucking lot better if I just learned everything on my own, never asked questions to clarify unclear situations, and never learned that I got it all wrong from the start! At least you could call me a hard working fuck!


But okay. A new question for those who want to support me in my learning process:

If I'm going in D minor and I have an Ab6(or +5, or whatever) chord, am I correct to label it Vb6? Also, would an E major be just II, or do I have to do something special to indicate that it's not the normal ii dim chord expected in the scale?

I've googled around for this, and have not found a clear answer.
Last edited by Aukikco at Feb 15, 2013,
Angusman60
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#30
In D minor, an E major chord would not be labeled as II. In roman numeral analysis, that does not exist. It would be analyzed as a secondary dominant chord, this it would be labeled as a V/V or "Five of five" since an E major is the V or A, which is the dominant in D minor.

As for the first question, I'm assuming you mean an A major chord with an altered degree (A, C#, E#). If you are referring to it as a +5, or augmented chord, it would be labeled as simply V+. The chord A, C#, E, F would be not be a b6, but a F major 7 augmented, but that's up for debate.
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Aukikco
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#31
Quote by Angusman60
In D minor, an E major chord would not be labeled as II. In roman numeral analysis, that does not exist. It would be analyzed as a secondary dominant chord, this it would be labeled as a V/V or "Five of five" since an E major is the V or A, which is the dominant in D minor.

How do I know when to look for (=even consider the possibility) of a secondary dominant?
Last edited by Aukikco at Feb 15, 2013,
Aukikco
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#32
Ah, I just realized one mistake of mine:

The progression in question is F-Dm-F-Dm-F-Em-A7 (after which it heads back to a part starting with Dm, which is the key of the song).

So it's an E minor, not a major. Would that be a ii, then?

(I'm still also interested in an answer to my previous question about the secondary dominant
mdc
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#33
Quote by Aukikco
Ah, I just realized one mistake of mine:

The progression in question is F-Dm-F-Dm-F-Em-A7 (after which it heads back to a part starting with Dm, which is the key of the song).

So it's an E minor, not a major. Would that be a ii, then?

(I'm still also interested in an answer to my previous question about the secondary dominant

Ok man, sorry about before. You explained your reasonings.

This here (the highlighted) is a ii-V movement. Very common in jazz to "ii-V your way in to" a chord.

Ex. Em - A7 is a ii-V preparation for the Dm. It would be more theoretically correct to label the Em as Em7b5 but it's no big deal. This can work in so many areas.
Last edited by mdc at Feb 15, 2013,
Aukikco
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#34
Quote by mdc
Ok man, sorry about before. You explained your reasonings.

Glad to know it came through

Ex. Em - A7 is a ii-V preparation for the Dm. It would be more theoretically correct to label the Em as Em7b5 but it's no big deal. This can work in so many areas.

Even if it's actually not an Edim chord but just an Em? Do explain!
mdc
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#35
Take that progression F-Dm.....

Instead of going F - Dm - F... you can "ii-V'' your way back into the F, like this

F - Dm - Gm7 - C9 - F

In that example, all chords belong to the key, but it can get more interesting...
Last edited by mdc at Feb 15, 2013,
Angusman60
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#36
Quote by Aukikco



Even if it's actually not an Edim chord but just an Em? Do explain!



The reason it is correctly labeled a Emin7b5 (half diminished) is because, in minor, the triad built off of the 2nd scale degree is diminished. If you think of minor as a "mode" of the major scale, then, the first note is vi, likewise, the 2nd note is vii. It can still be a regular E minor, it would just involve an accidental. So, technically, you would be utilizing the melodic minor scale (with Em) instead of the natural minor scale (Edim). This is because changing the Edim (E, G, Bb) to Em (E,G,B) raises the 6th degree of the scale (Bb to B). This is a primary give away for melodic minor.

Secondary dominants can be identified by a two criteria. 1) Major chord where it doesn't belong, in this instance an E major. 2) It must be used to "tonicize" (or temporary modulate) a chord that is not the tonic of the stated key.

So, "E" major will tonicize "A" major which then resolves to it's tonic "D" minor (in this case). Hence the term "secondary dominant", or, "V of V".
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I'm a musician, a composer, and a theory nut. Pleased to meet you! Check out my websites and drop me a line.

"The essence of all beautiful art, all great art, is gratitude. " ~ Freidrich Nietzche


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Last edited by Angusman60 at Feb 15, 2013,