Page 170 of 170
#6761
Quote by necrosis1193
Because I don't buy that one player on one lowball contract is going to cause serious harm to any franchise.

You're really set on arguing this when it wasn't even the topic at hand. This discussion started because you brought up the merits of signing him to sell tickets.

See:
Quote by chrismendiola
And in all likelihood, you're probably right. There isn't gonna be a huge impact on where they are with the standings.

No one is saying Sandoval is gonna ruin the franchise.

You're really just arguing against points that were never made. Instead of partaking in an imaginary debate, focus on the actual topic: making moves to sell tickets over improving the roster is poor team management. There are players who would serve to benefit the Giants better.
Free Ali
#6762
Quote by chrismendiola
You're really just arguing against points that were never made. Instead of partaking in an imaginary debate, focus on the actual topic: making moves to sell tickets over improving the roster is poor team management. There are players who would serve to benefit the Giants better.

Give me a name, because unless you can point me to someone specific, I doubt that. The trade deadline is in ten days, nobody who could actually help a team is unsigned right now. Early in the season you might find someone, but this late, even if you don't think they could actually start anywhere and just thought they could be used either as trade bait or as an extra chip to throw into a trade package, they'd be on a team with the deadline this close. The only people on the open market right now are there because A. they're old and can't contribute, B. they're injured and can't contribute, C. they're not good enough to contribute, or D. they're a project that probably won't pan out so most teams don't want to spend the time to try. Sandoval falls into camp D, which is the only one where you find anyone actually worth trying. Who can the Giants acquire for a similarly minuscule pricetag that has any real upside? It's a lot easier to fix a guy when his only problem is that he's too fat, compared to a guy who can't run anymore because he's had three knee surgeries.
THE FORUM UPDATE KILLED THE GRADIENT STAR

Baltimore Orioles: 2014 AL Eastern Division Champions, 2017: 46-49
Baltimore Ravens: 2012 World Champions, 2017: 0-0
2017 NFL Pick 'Em: 0-0
Last edited by necrosis1193 at Jul 21, 2017,
#6763
Quote by necrosis1193
Give me a name, because unless you can point me to someone specific, I doubt that. The trade deadline is in ten days, nobody who could actually help a team is unsigned right now. Early in the season you might find someone, but this late, even if you don't think they could actually start anywhere and just thought they could be used either as trade bait or as an extra chip to throw into a trade package, they'd be on a team with the deadline this close. The only people on the open market right now are there because A. they're old and can't contribute, B. they're injured and can't contribute, C. they're not good enough to contribute, or D. they're a project that probably won't pan out so most teams don't want to spend the time to try. Sandoval falls into camp D, which is the only one where you find anyone actually worth trying. Who can the Giants acquire for a similarly minuscule pricetag that has any real upside? It's a lot easier to fix a guy when his only problem is that he's too fat, compared to a guy who can't run anymore because he's had three knee surgeries.

Jeez. You keep avoiding the actual argument and keep coming back to the value of Sandoval. You're really still on this. This is still the wrong argument.

Any minor league prospect would be better. They could come up for some needed reps. At least it's reasonable to expect them to eventually become productive. Free agency isn't the only option. They ought to be trading or bringing up prospects.

Unless you're gonna talk about the actual topic, I'm not responding to you anymore. It's pretty tiresome reading you avoid the initial argument in so many words.
Free Ali
Last edited by chrismendiola at Jul 21, 2017,
#6764
Judge almost hit a ball out of Safeco in left field.

I have sat in those exact seats, it is so damn far. Like McGuire territory. I have never seen anyone come close. To even get it into the second deck is rare, let alone behind it.
58-32 NFL Thread Pick Em.
#6765
Quote by chrismendiola
Jeez. You keep avoiding the actual argument and keep coming back to the value of Sandoval. You're really still on this. This is still the wrong argument.

Any minor league prospect would be better. They could come up for some needed reps. At least it's reasonable to expect them to eventually become productive. Free agency isn't the only option. They ought to be trading or bringing up prospects.

Unless you're gonna talk about the actual topic, I'm not responding to you anymore. It's pretty tiresome reading you avoid the initial argument in so many words.

I don't see how I'm avoiding the argument.  

I said that it's not a terrible move because it might sell tickets, and it's not like things can get any worse.

You argued that it's a bad move because A. it sends a bad message, and B. there would be other players who would be a better use of the roster spot.

I argued that A. the message is meaningless because for better or worse the results will speak for themselves, and a good message with bad results is never seen more positively than a bad message with good results, and B. that is a fair point if there is a better player to be found, but the fact the Giants even entertained this idea speaks volumes to what they think of their infield prospects.

You argued that A. the message means something because fans won't come to see a losing team play bad baseball, B. the Giants should have acquired someone else who is better, and C. that signing Sandoval with the expectation of him actually doing something worthwhile is tantamount to sending Buster Posey to the minors out of fear that he might start playing poorly.

I argued that A. the Giants are third in attendance in spite of being one of the worst teams in baseball, so clearly people are not being dissuaded by the quality of the product, B. They didn't give away any prospects or any money of real consequence for Sandoval, so they still have all the same assets they had before to pursue other players and this hasn't prevented them from doing anything else, C. that the Posey comparison is nonsensical, and D. it's not out of the realm of possibility that a good training staff and a committed Sandoval could get him back into shape, so there is some baseball value, and because of how cheap the contract is, it carries virtually no risk.

You didn't respond to A or C, responded to B and D by telling me that it's all but an impossibility that Sandoval ever plays at a worthwhile level again, then told me that I'm not allowed to bring up D because his value as a baseball player wasn't part of my original statement.

I responded by asking the question of, if you're right and he never does anything worthwhile again, what is the worst-case scenario as far as the impact that has on the Giants? In other words, what do they stand to lose if this doesn't pan out and ends up never being anything other than a gimmick?

You responded by telling me that I'm missing the point, accusing me of tilting at windmills, and repeating that unnamed hypothetical player X would have been a better acquisition than Sandoval.

I responded by asking for a specific player rather than unnamed hypothetical player X, because if the means by which the Giants would acquire him is undefined, and the only detail about him that's established is that he's better, then that's a pretty hard point to respond to.

You responded by basically saying that anyone would be better, then telling me that I'm the one avoiding the discussion and that you're not going to continue unless I respond to your actual points.

And that brings us to here, where I'm very confused because all I've been doing this entire discussion is responding to your points.

I tried to continue along the path regarding ticket sales when I brought up the fact that the Giants are still top three in attendance in spite of being terrible to say that the quality of the product onfield is having little bearing on ticket sales. You didn't respond to that and focused in on the fact that you don't believe Sandoval will ever be worthwhile in the majors again, so rather than repeat something I had already said that had been ignored, I responded by following your direction and asking what the Giants stand to lose if you're right, rather than demanding that we go back to the topic from before. Then you told me that I was changing the subject and that you're not going to continue unless I get back on topic. Was I supposed to call you out for not responding to the attendance numbers? Refuse to continue unless you went back to them? Copy and paste my previous post? I've made no effort to duck your points, I'm just responding to the direction you're taking the discussion. I don't know what you're looking for.  
THE FORUM UPDATE KILLED THE GRADIENT STAR

Baltimore Orioles: 2014 AL Eastern Division Champions, 2017: 46-49
Baltimore Ravens: 2012 World Champions, 2017: 0-0
2017 NFL Pick 'Em: 0-0
Last edited by necrosis1193 at Jul 22, 2017,
#6766
Quote by necrosis1193
I don't see how I'm avoiding the argument.

[...]

I don't know what you're looking for.  

I know I said I wouldn't respond, and I really shouldn't have, because I don't want to sink in any more time into this. You're making arguments separate from the original that Chaz, Phils, and I addressed. It pretty much has nothing to do with Sandoval. It could've been anyone. All we care about is how you see merit in trying to bring fans to the stadium using gimmicks rather than making moves that would more likely improve the team. 

Notice how in these posts:
Quote by TheChaz
No. If you're managing your team based on what will potentially sell tickets for half a season you're doing it so so wrong.

Quote by chrismendiola
I disagree. Sports isn't an entertainment business like others, because it's inherently a competition. If you're not doing what's best for the team to win, then you're putting on a show rather than performing your main function. In music, movies, or whatever else, the endgoal isn't to win a competition, at least not directly. Hiring someone who sucks to get people to come to the stadium is basically sending the message that your franchise is a clown show. If you care more about bringing people in to watch a former star to help the team lose, then you're not doing your job as a franchise executive.   Even if we were to entertain that business strategy, it's really stupid. You're putting out a worse product in order to increase revenue. I doubt people are interested in watching Sandoval strike out, and if they are, it'll only serve you to be worse off in the future. When you decided to take on a player who has no business in a major league team, you're losing games, and consequently, fan interest. Fans aren't morons.

In addition, there are probably a few in the Giants farm system who deserve that spot more than Sandoval does. 

Quote by WCPhils
As a Phillies fan I can safely say that putting out aging veterans because they're "fan favorites" over younger guys who need reps is the death of your team  Ruben Amaro Jr did that for 2+ years and the Phillies have been fucked for half a decade now, and will continue to be fucked for the foreseeable future

there's only one very brief mention of Pablo Sandoval. I even clarified afterwards when I said:
Quote by chrismendiola
Let me first premise this by saying that I read that he's supposed to be playing in the minors.

Now I've acknowledged that the Sandoval argument is moot, because he won't be on the Giants anyway. A sentence later, I said this:
Quote by chrismendiola
I'm going to put the argument out there, because this is an argument that exists outside of this particular situation

and also, at another point, said this:
Quote by chrismendiola
I won't entertain the tangential argument that Sandoval could turn it around.

 
But you continued to argue about whether Sandoval could be a worthwhile asset or not and that should he continue to struggle, it would be largely inconsequential. You continued to bring this up, even though I made it clear that this was not the position I was interested in arguing. I even agreed with you.
Quote by chrismendiola
And in all likelihood, you're probably right. There isn't gonna be a huge impact on where they are with the standings.  

[...]

But the point isn't that it's potentially consequential to a team's success, 

I almost responded to some of the points you said that I never addressed, but I decided against it, for the same reason I cut out the bulk of your most recent post. Because they're tangents, at best, and I wasn't interested in going further with those points. So when you tell me that:
Quote by necrosis1193
I'm just responding to the direction you're taking the discussion.

well, no, you weren't. I was repeatedly trying to steer the discussion in the general topic about the merit of gimmicks to sell tickets, not a full-fledged discussion about the potential of this particular acquisition. I don't want to talk about Sandoval. It just happened that this was prompted by this signing.

I repeatedly tried to get you off of discussing Sandoval. I didn't want to talk about him, but you kept mentioning him. 
Quote by chrismendiola
Your original argument was that this was a business move to sell tickets. Now you're on a tangent talking about the potential upside signing Sandoval has. The former is what this argument is about. The latter is a tangent.

I just want to talk about how a franchise executive should or shouldn't employ gimmicky tactics to sell tickets where their efforts could be better spent on improving the team in the future.
Free Ali
#6767
Edit: You know what, now I remember why I stopped being so argumentative. This shit is giving me a migraine, and this is not worth my comfort or my sleep. Interpret this whole mess however you like, whatever you make of this, whatever you make of me, I'm done.
THE FORUM UPDATE KILLED THE GRADIENT STAR

Baltimore Orioles: 2014 AL Eastern Division Champions, 2017: 46-49
Baltimore Ravens: 2012 World Champions, 2017: 0-0
2017 NFL Pick 'Em: 0-0
Last edited by necrosis1193 at Jul 22, 2017,