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axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
Join date: Aug 2006
230 IQ
#41
Quote by Hail
that's implying scales are musical


Knowledge of scales is a subset of the knowledge of music, thus musical.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
60 IQ
#42
Quote by axemanchris
Knowledge of scales is a subset of the knowledge of music, thus musical.

CT

nuh uh
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

Quote by jongtr
I want to be Hail when I grow up.
TommyGunUk
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2009
40 IQ
#44
Quote by cdgraves
Scales are as musical if you play them musically.


Last edited by TommyGunUk at Feb 19, 2013,
Jehannum
Bant
Join date: Feb 2011
120 IQ
#45
Quote by cdgraves
Modes are just other scales, guys. It's not that they're stupid, there's just nothing special about them.

The problem is that a lot of guitarists think modes are a central melodic concept. They are not. The arpeggio should be your basic melodic building block. Everything you do melodically must relate to the underlying harmony.

Because everything has to relate to the harmony, everything you play will be based on it. If you are in C major and playing over a C major chord, nothing you do will be anything but some combination of C major (unless you're using accidentals). Staring a lick on E doesn't make it E phrygian - it's just C major lick starting on E.

That said, you can use modes harmonically by basing your chord structure on them (like using a Imaj7 - Vmaj7 vamp) and play appropriately to the harmony. I'd call that a good, creative use of modality.


I think you're oversimplifying by saying modes are 'just other scales'. Modes are scales used in a certain way to achieve a certain sound. If you just use a mode as a bunch of notes you won't get a modal sound but the sound of the relative key. In such a case, thinking about the music in modal terms is pointless. You yourself describe how to get modal sound harmonically using a vamp, so you know modes need certain methods of application in order to work.

This isn't the way you write non-modal music, so there's a shift in methodology here. It's not just using 'other scales'.
Jehannum
Bant
Join date: Feb 2011
120 IQ
#46
Quote by TommyGunUk
I am aware that modal music means that it has no key, I had to study Serialism and Expressionism and what have you. I'm also aware that once you use a mode in a key, it ceases to be a mode. What he and i are arguing about is whether or not modes are completely useless or not. I don't think they are, because of the fact that I can use them as a scale if i want to. When being given tips on composing, we were told to do all sorts of things with a melody when we were stuck;
Play it backwards
Reflect it in a mirror
Sequence it up or down in pitch
Take bits of it and repeat them
Double it up
The list goes on. When you look at all these, using modes as a base from which you derive scales or what have you isn't so strange


Modes are not completely useless. They have a distinctive sound. If that's the sound you want, then they have a use.

The thing is, exactly the same sound can be achieved without reference to modes by using (fixed) accidentals within a key. In fact, this opens up more possibilities. You could use accidentals that aren't in any named mode to make your own 'pseudo-modes' (e.g. try using minor with an augmented fourth). But you'll still be just using accidentals.

So the question you have to ask yourself is 'am I using modes just because their names sound cool?'
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
60 IQ
#47
Quote by Jehannum
Modes are not completely useless. They have a distinctive sound. If that's the sound you want, then they have a use.

The thing is, exactly the same sound can be achieved without reference to modes by using (fixed) accidentals within a key. In fact, this opens up more possibilities. You could use accidentals that aren't in any named mode to make your own 'pseudo-modes' (e.g. try using minor with an augmented fourth). But you'll still be just using accidentals.

So the question you have to ask yourself is 'am I using modes just because their names sound cool?'


well a key just implies the point of resolution and quality. a scale fixed to a key would have accidentals, or on the sheet there would be accidentals, but it's just a lot easier to avoid it in general. as long as the harmonic conventions maintain tonality, you can do what the hell ever you want and use tons of combinations of sounds and movements and voicings and rhythms to express yourself however you like. i don't know why the 7 modes are so prioritized - there are so many possible combinations of intervals it would be foolish to name all of them

conventions hold a lot more precedence than note choice in any situation because conventions encapsulate multiple dimensions of context rather than adhering to one element of the music.
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

Quote by jongtr
I want to be Hail when I grow up.
axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
Join date: Aug 2006
230 IQ
#48
Quote by Hail
nuh uh


How not?



I mean, sure, you could bring it into the realm of language and suggest that a person can express ideas without any knowledge of grammar and be - on some level anyways - correct. But to deny that knowledge of grammar is a subset of knowledge of language is nothing short of asinine. Similarly, I can't imagine how one could support the notion that knowledge of scales is not a subset of the knowledge of music. It seems just as asinine to me.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
60 IQ
#49
Quote by axemanchris
How not?



I mean, sure, you could bring it into the realm of language and suggest that a person can express ideas without any knowledge of grammar and be - on some level anyways - correct. But to deny that knowledge of grammar is a subset of knowledge of language is nothing short of asinine. Similarly, I can't imagine how one could support the notion that knowledge of scales is not a subset of the knowledge of music. It seems just as asinine to me.

CT


why do you guys even still take me seriously lol
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

Quote by jongtr
I want to be Hail when I grow up.
Mister A.J.
Ker-Blang-a-Woggle
Join date: May 2011
62 IQ
#50
Quote by Hail
why do you guys even still take me seriously lol

Because when we take you you seriously, you have funny responses.
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mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
Join date: Feb 2008
60 IQ
#51
Quote by Hail
why do you guys even still take me seriously lol

I don't know. Is it cuz your shit stank and your pussy stank etc etc etc?
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
60 IQ
#52
Quote by mdc
I don't know. Is it cuz your shit stank and your pussy stank etc etc etc?


i use febreeze deodorant thank you very much
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

Quote by jongtr
I want to be Hail when I grow up.
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