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pinheadslts75
BrainDamage
Join date: Oct 2004
1,113 IQ
#161
Wow reading this thread makes my brain hurt.

Simple answer: Those who don't want to use modeling will stick to tube amps. Those who want to use modeling will use modeling.

I swear it's like watching pro-lifers and pro-choicers arguing whenever this discussion comes up.
Last edited by pinheadslts75 at Apr 8, 2013,
Metalloy
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2010
1,249 IQ
#162
well it is not just a discussion, it is a challenge made by cathbard with his little tin amp.
I must say the axe fx did pretty well but still the 18 watter did better in the dynamics section.
we still need a kemper sample. I havent watched the last posted video yet, because it is too long.
6505fiz
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2013
34 IQ
#163
All things are replaced eventually... amps as we know them will become a thing of the past. So will amp modelling. So will guitars... so on and so on.

But when? 500 years? 1000 years?

There's no wrong answer to this question.
Metalloy
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2010
1,249 IQ
#164
Quote by 6505fiz
All things are replaced eventually... amps as we know them will become a thing of the past. So will amp modelling. So will guitars... so on and so on.

But when? 500 years? 1000 years?

There's no wrong answer to this question.

Challenge accepted!
in -20years
6505fiz
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2013
34 IQ
#165
Quote by Metalloy
Challenge accepted!
in -20years


lol... I'm writing this down!
Arby911
Finding the Pattern
Join date: Jul 2010
830 IQ
#166
Quote by 6505fiz
All things are replaced eventually... amps as we know them will become a thing of the past. So will amp modelling. So will guitars... so on and so on.

But when? 500 years? 1000 years?

There's no wrong answer to this question.


15 minutes.

<Waits 15 minutes>

Welp, guitars, amps and modelers still exist, so I guess there's at least ONE wrong answer...
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
dementiacaptain
Chiefin' Son
Join date: Feb 2010
2,227 IQ
#167
well played
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
6505fiz
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2013
34 IQ
#168
Quote by Arby911
15 minutes.

<Waits 15 minutes>

Welp, guitars, amps and modelers still exist, so I guess there's at least ONE wrong answer...


Not correct... that is to say, in 15 minutes time, tube amps, ss amps and modelling amps all still have their place, and their uses.

So, as it is, that is the correct answer.

In 15 years, who knows... in 1500 years, who knows. We will find out when we get there.
Dimarzio45
Chookie's Cookie
Join date: Jan 2013
763 IQ
#169
Wow. I didn't realize this thread was still goin.

My only beef with amp modeling is the lack of picking dynamics. Other than that, tube amps are great and will always be desired. However, amp modeling can have a great role of importance in the studio.

Somebody else here said, "Why have 200 amp models?"....well, I like to play a bunch of different styles and I love the OPTIONS I have available. It's not for everyone, though.
6505fiz
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2013
34 IQ
#170
Quote by Dimarzio45
Wow. I didn't realize this thread was still goin.

My only beef with amp modeling is the lack of picking dynamics. Other than that, tube amps are great and will always be desired. However, amp modeling can have a great role of importance in the studio.

Somebody else here said, "Why have 200 amp models?"....well, I like to play a bunch of different styles and I love the OPTIONS I have available. It's not for everyone, though.


When I play my Strat through my Eleven Rack (black face emulation) into a nice set of monitors, it responds exactly like when I'm playing through my Fender Deluxe Reverb RI.

(don't let my user name fool you, the 6505 isn't the only amp I own)

However, the Fender pushes more air... that changes the "feeling" I perceive while playing. But the way in which both "amps" respond to my picking techniques, attack, etc. are so similar it's freaky.
Dimarzio45
Chookie's Cookie
Join date: Jan 2013
763 IQ
#171
Quote by 6505fiz
When I play my Strat through my Eleven Rack (black face emulation) into a nice set of monitors, it responds exactly like when I'm playing through my Fender Deluxe Reverb RI.

(don't let my user name fool you, the 6505 isn't the only amp I own)

However, the Fender pushes more air... that changes the "feeling" I perceive while playing. But the way in which both "amps" respond to my picking techniques, attack, etc. are so similar it's freaky.

Yeah. I've heard good things about the Eleven Rack. I've got some emulations/simulations on my Vetta II head that are really great when it comes to pick response/dynamics. It's more of the really high gain/mesa style settings that lack the dynamics.
6505fiz
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2013
34 IQ
#172
Quote by Dimarzio45
Yeah. I've heard good things about the Eleven Rack. I've got some emulations/simulations on my Vetta II head that are really great when it comes to pick response/dynamics. It's more of the really high gain/mesa style settings that lack the dynamics.


No doubt, I've played through some of the Line 6 gear over the years and they're actually really good!

The Eleven Rack is a fun tool, especially for recording.

I used to own an Axe FX Ultra, which I sold after getting my Eleven Rack. The Axe FX as well, emulated the "feel" of a nice amp incredibly well. Both devices have impressed me and changed my mind on emulations.

But, nothing beats just standing in front of a wall of speakers and cranking tubes past their breaking point.
Dimarzio45
Chookie's Cookie
Join date: Jan 2013
763 IQ
#173
Quote by 6505fiz
No doubt, I've played through some of the Line 6 gear over the years and they're actually really good!

The Eleven Rack is a fun tool, especially for recording.

I used to own an Axe FX Ultra, which I sold after getting my Eleven Rack. The Axe FX as well, emulated the "feel" of a nice amp incredibly well. Both devices have impressed me and changed my mind on emulations.

But, nothing beats just standing in front of a wall of speakers and cranking tubes past their breaking point.

What was the reason for choosing the Eleven Rack over the Axe FX? Just out of curiousity...
6505fiz
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2013
34 IQ
#174
Quote by Dimarzio45
What was the reason for choosing the Eleven Rack over the Axe FX? Just out of curiousity...


Couple things actually:

1. The Eleven Rack is more "amp" like in it's controls... just dial in your chain and twiddle knobs until you find your tone.

2. Simplicity, the Axe provided more flexibility in sound, but not in tone, that is to say, with the Axe I could make my guitar sound like a keyboard, but I don't play keyboard, I play guitar.

3. The Eleven Rack responds more like a "tube amp" than the Axe, which felt sterile to me.

Ultimately, when it came down to just "playing music", the Eleven Rack worked better for me. More time playing, less time clicking buttons.
Dimarzio45
Chookie's Cookie
Join date: Jan 2013
763 IQ
#175
Quote by 6505fiz
Couple things actually:

1. The Eleven Rack is more "amp" like in it's controls... just dial in your chain and twiddle knobs until you find your tone.

2. Simplicity, the Axe provided more flexibility in sound, but not in tone, that is to say, with the Axe I could make my guitar sound like a keyboard, but I don't play keyboard, I play guitar.

3. The Eleven Rack responds more like a "tube amp" than the Axe, which felt sterile to me.

Ultimately, when it came down to just "playing music", the Eleven Rack worked better for me. More time playing, less time clicking buttons.

Oh okay. Seems legit. Does the eleven rack include some sort of foot control or is it more like a standalone unit?
6505fiz
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2013
34 IQ
#176
Quote by Dimarzio45
Oh okay. Seems legit. Does the eleven rack include some sort of foot control or is it more like a standalone unit?


I've been impressed by it... but, I should also point out, the Axe is a mighty impressive product as well. More so in that the depth of it's software is greater than that of the Eleven Rack.

It just didn't work as well for me as the Eleven Rack.

The Eleven Rack unfortunately is just that, a 2U rack, no included foot controllers or anything of the type. Of course, you can run it with any midi controlled foot switch (think Ground Control).

...or you can just run it from front, all the knobs/switches are there.

It also interfaces well with ProTools (obviously), which allows you to bring all the effects/amps/cabs/etc up on screen, as if they were individual devices. Adjusting them on your computer also adjusts them on the rack.

They're dirt cheap now too... under $400 often times on ebay. Might be worth a look if you do a lot of recoding.
DeathByDestroyr
EDM
Join date: Oct 2008
953 IQ
#177
Digital guitar picks and permanent in-ear monitors for everyone!

O.0
'81 Ibanez DT400
'69 Bassman 50
Marshall 1960a
Dimarzio45
Chookie's Cookie
Join date: Jan 2013
763 IQ
#178
Quote by 6505fiz
I've been impressed by it... but, I should also point out, the Axe is a mighty impressive product as well. More so in that the depth of it's software is greater than that of the Eleven Rack.

It just didn't work as well for me as the Eleven Rack.

The Eleven Rack unfortunately is just that, a 2U rack, no included foot controllers or anything of the type. Of course, you can run it with any midi controlled foot switch (think Ground Control).

...or you can just run it from front, all the knobs/switches are there.

It also interfaces well with ProTools (obviously), which allows you to bring all the effects/amps/cabs/etc up on screen, as if they were individual devices. Adjusting them on your computer also adjusts them on the rack.

They're dirt cheap now too... under $400 often times on ebay. Might be worth a look if you do a lot of recoding.

Well, I've got a Vetta II that I'm really happy with. I like the eleven rack but it doesn't seem to offer as many options as the Vetta II. However, for only $400 (or around that), that's a really low price for what that unit has to offer. I'm always wanting to get more gear and that unit will surely be something to look into. I like the Axe FX however, the foot controller for it is just too ridiculously expensive (the full size pedal, that is)....The $400 range is pretty enticing on that Eleven Rack.

Edit: Plus, I've owned the Vetta II for only about 6-7 months and I'm still constantly amazed by it that buying anything else in the "Multi FX" genre would be maybe a bit foolish and just overkill.
Last edited by Dimarzio45 at Apr 8, 2013,
Clay-man
Say no to saying no
Join date: Apr 2009
4,082 IQ
#179
Quote by pinheadslts75
Wow reading this thread makes my brain hurt.

Simple answer: Those who don't want to use modeling will stick to tube amps. Those who want to use modeling will use modeling.

I swear it's like watching pro-lifers and pro-choicers arguing whenever this discussion comes up.


Pretty much.

I wonder how many people complained about the electric guitar not sounding as full as an acoustic when it came out.
R45VT
Doesn't speak guitar
Join date: Dec 2009
1,110 IQ
#180
Quote by Clay-man
Pretty much.

I wonder how many people complained about the electric guitar not sounding as full as an acoustic when it came out.


It's always the same...


When disc brakes came out on cars mechanics quit, when fuel injection came out people quit...

Hell I hate the new guitars that tune themselves... maybe it will grow on me.

I have a PODxt and will pick up an HD at some point.

That being said I have tube amps kick'n around and then some.
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
See, it's important that people clarify when they say "metal", because I pretty much always assume they are a Cannibal Corpse fanboi.
gregs1020
Hi mom!
Join date: Dec 2007
10,786 IQ
#181
Quote by Cathbard
Here's the clip I was talking about, to save you looking back a page.

http://cathbard.com/files/sibly.mp3

I don't give a shit who uses what. Show me something that has that level of talkback. I'm not even saying nothing can. I'm just throwing it out there as a challenge. I don't care about any of that ^ shit. How it's mastered is irrelevant, I am talking about how it reacts to your picking. Show me or gtfo.

i tried really hard with the fender mustang but no go. it just breaks up unless you're barely barely picking but then the volume is too low. it doesn't have that dynamic of pick sensitivity that i think you are talking about.

now i tried it again with the good ole vox da5 and i think i should be able to put together a decent clip. just not tonight. i should have done it sunday when i had the time. i mean it's not the same but you can fake an almost passable example and i do think you will agree.

but no it's not the same.

maybe some of the newer stuff can though, i kinda doubt it too myself tbh.

Quote by dlowe102
OK dt25 with hd500 j45... just touch example.
https://soundcloud.com/angie-lee-hayward-lowe/test01-track-1-mix-14

that's not bad, probably better than the vox will do.
Last edited by gregs1020 at Apr 8, 2013,
dlowe102
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2010
540 IQ
#182
Quote by Robbgnarly
+1 The DT is a hybrid amp. It has a very similar circuit to the Spider valve. The input is actually a DSP interface and not a true tube preamp. Only the power amp is all tube.

You are wrong the circuit in the dt is nothing like the spider valve.
Arby911
Finding the Pattern
Join date: Jul 2010
830 IQ
#183
Quote by dlowe102
You are wrong the circuit in the dt is nothing like the spider valve.


Well that was helpful....


Care to support your claim and detail the differences?
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Lucky-Luciano
Banned
Join date: Apr 2013
94 IQ
#184
Bedroom guitarist-cant crank amps at home easily, low wattage amps are not the same in terms of tone

can spend 2k and get every amp and pedal and cab and mic imaginable

fun jamming to original recordings after doing tone match

Home recording-no need for studio time. multiple amp tones and no danger of losing a good tone in error

Rehearsal room-dont have to carry amp and your cab

band gigs-less time messing and setting up

covers or wedding bands-emulate band tones to get authentic covers. travel in a small car!

touring bands-again travel more light and no danger of tubes dying on you. famous bands can emulate their old tones.


Disadvantages - tone is 0.1 percent less organic

tech gear can lose value more than tube amps


I think they will be dominant in 5 years, however in 10 the technology will be on an app or something crazy.
l8nlst
Registered User
Join date: Sep 2012
10 IQ
#185
One will never replace the other. Electric guitars never replaced acoustic. Most serious guitarists own both. Its just one more tool in the arsenal.

It should be noted however that at one time accordions were the most popular instrument in America.
dlowe102
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2010
540 IQ
#187
Quote by Arby911
Well that was helpful....


Care to support your claim and detail the differences?


There was a write up explaining the exact difference. Ill have to find it. But basically the spider valve uses modeling from the spider series wich model's the pre amp and power amp of the modeled amp then sends that to the tube power section to color the sound. Kinda like running a pod through a tube power amp. except i think a pod has better modeling .
The dt uses hd modeling of the preamp of an amp model only. uses a tube dt25 /tubes dt50 to color that modeled preamp amp model then thats where modeling stops... then the mechanical circuitry of the power amp chooses one of four defferent tube circuit routes dependent of type of amp model so that the tubes of the poweramp interact realistically.
RedJamaX
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2008
478 IQ
#188
I don't think tube amps will ever go away completely...

But I do think they will eventually be seen kinda of the same way classic muscle cars are seen today. Everybody will still want one, but something that's way more convenient, more affordable, and requires less maintenance that achieves the same goal will be the choice for most people.
6505fiz
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2013
34 IQ
#189
Even when playing through an Axe FX and a nice set of monitors, there's just something "missing", it's not "tone" or "feel"... rather, it feels as if even the best made amp modellers are more forgiving, sort of like playing a video game on easy mode or something.

That said, I have rack modellers and use them all the time instead of my tube amps, but I know this, I sure love having both at my disposal.
jazzman1021
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2013
10 IQ
#190
When it comes right down to it decide on the sound you want; plug in amp; plug in guitar; add your pedals, if you wish, and work those dials. Sometimes it will come right away, sometimes not, but your sound is there, no modeling, no shortcuts, just tone.
My experience = Line6 et al = Phooey
Best regards

JM 1021
Last edited by jazzman1021 at Jun 10, 2013,
Silky Smooth
Lavish linear lickage
Join date: Sep 2006
184 IQ
#191
Quote by 6505fiz
Even when playing through an Axe FX and a nice set of monitors, there's just something "missing", it's not "tone" or "feel"... rather, it feels as if even the best made amp modellers are more forgiving, sort of like playing a video game on easy mode or something.

That said, I have rack modellers and use them all the time instead of my tube amps, but I know this, I sure love having both at my disposal.


I agree

There is a feeling that something gets lost when you attack the strings. I don't know how to explain it but it feels like something gets taken away. It just doesnt translate as well as playing through a plain old amp.
Clay-man
Say no to saying no
Join date: Apr 2009
4,082 IQ
#192
Anyone ever try out modeling -> Line 6 stagesource?
Cathbard
Grumpy Old Tech
Join date: Oct 2009
2,565 IQ
#193
Forget tubes amp's future - why won't this thread die?
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
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Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
D_M_I
Omniscient
Join date: Aug 2011
107 IQ
#194
When the aliens come, we will have the answer. They surely have moved on from tubes.....Or have they?
ADOLF1612
New and Friendly Player
Join date: Jun 2009
178 IQ
#195
Can I join? I'm in no ways taking Mr. Cathbard's challenge, but wanted to give a contribution on modeller's dynamics.

https://soundcloud.com/adolf1612/fender-mustang-dynamics-demo

The clip is me playing my Esp Ltd trough my Fender Mustang I, modeling an almost cranked Twin Reverb, recorded directly from usb out, I swear you're not hearing anything other than that, and neither am I showing off my playing (I just first picked the guitar today and did that, so that's me noodling around without any previous warmups or anything).

I won't say that I'm in for Tubes, SS or Modeling, I'm in for Tone, whatever gives me a pleasant tone is good to me.

For an 100$ amp it's not bad (to me), surely recording it the old method with a mic would have sounded better but not having any recording gear is going to make that difficult xD, Opinions?
ESP LTD MH-100QM STB with Suhr SSV-N & SSH-B
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bustapr
Marty's loyal follower
Join date: Apr 2010
2,857 IQ
#196
i feel modelling tech will eventually reach a similar level as the best tube amps and be able to react to pick attack and volume like tube amps do. modelling tech is good right now and it can only get better as years go by. you only really need to look in the kempers direction. that thing is a beast.

however, Im not at all a fan of the axe fx so many people praise. sounds so sterile to me.
Marty Friedman is GOD!

curently in a SEX MACHINEGUNS and X JAPAN phase AND Galneryus AND Anthem phase

damn J-Metal, why you so awesome

My Gear:

Schecter Hellraiser V-1 fr
Ibanez RG321mh
Fender GDC-200sce
Peavey Vypyr 30 w/ sanpera 1
WaltTheWerewolf
Caffeinated
Join date: Sep 2008
1,313 IQ
#197
Although I think Modelling amps WILL keep getting better and better, one thing I find they do bad is the tones in between clean and dirty. They do well with metal, hard rock, where it involves some chunky tones, and they handle pure cleans very well. It's those slightly overdriven, subtle breakup tones that sound the worst to me.

For example, lets take PODs for instance:
the Fender clean amp models sound great with the drive really low but when you push em to get that typical breakup sound the coldness of it comes out in full force.

Although POD farm has made for some very quick easy decent recordings.