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FLuX25
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#41
I think i agree with W4RP1G here "This post is full of bias and bullshit" . Everyone has such different opinions on this forum so how on the hell am i supposed to know who to believe. Which is why i said earlier if you could post a link to a sound demo or video of what ever you're recommending that would be a lot more helpful.
FLuX25
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#43
I really like the sound of both the peavey and blackstar... If i got the blackstar ht-5 combo, do you think that would be loud enough to do small gigs such as bars, clubs and cafes and if I am playing with a drummer who plays very heavy can the amp go loud enough.
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#44
The HT-5 would be able to keep up with a drummer, but would have to be mic'd up for a gig. You'd need something more powerful if the amp couldn't be mic'd.
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#45
A 5 watt amp is loud enough, when fully cranked through a 12" speaker, to be heard with a drummer in the room. You'll only barely be heard, though, and you'll be maxing the amp out which is rarely where any amp sounds its best. If you get an extension cab then a 5w amp into two 12" speakers can be just about usable for small gigs if you're a player who never needs to stand out (e.g. you strictly play basic rhythm parts). You'll still have to push the amp but you won't get lost quite as much.

Ideally you want at least 15 watts and two 12" speakers for a small gig. The volume difference between 5w and 15w is basically nothing, but a 15 watter will handle the same volume a little better.

If you're set on playing shows any time soon, you should aim to get a 25w amp or more. These low-power amps are a bit of a false economy, because you'll end up replacing it with a bigger amp after a while anyway. And frankly, despite what marketing suggests, simply turning a louder amp down gets you a better tone than turning a tiny amp up, if you do ever need a lower volume. Bigger amps are (usually, not always) made better than smaller ones. You'll save money and yourself a headache if you just buy something truly gig-worthy and great sounding right off the bat—even if it means you have to wait and save a while—rather than buying something cheap and small now then replacing it further down the road.


As for the pickup thing, thrash isn't a genre that is picky about pickups. When you're pushing the gain and bass that much, nobody is going to notice if you have a pickup with matched 43 AWG coils or one 43 AWG and one 44 AWG coil, or whatever else. My go-to pickup would be the Duncan Distortion because it's your most straight-forward high-output, thick, 'metal' pickup. The DiMarzio Super Distortion adds a little more bass if you end up with a really bright amp and the SD Custom gives more of an early metal feel if you like that sort of thing. All are ceramic with overwound coils, all fit the bill. Any of them will do the job; getting the right amp sorted is more important.
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FLuX25
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#46
damn, I really like the sound of that blackstar but i could get a peavey that would have no trouble with a small gig for a lot less money. One of my freinds uses a line 6 spider III 30 watt and it copes fine with small gigs, how does the blackstar ht-5 combo compare to that when it comes to volume?
W4RP1G
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#47
I'm always going to recommend for the Vypyr when people don't know what metal tone they want("thrash" is too vague of a preference to recommend any 1 amp). It's cheap, damn good, and has many options.

From my own experience, I learned that buying a tube amp isn't always better than buying a modeller, as some people had led me believe. I went out and bought a 6505+ 112 combo because it was so highly recommended for metal. I realized after a few years that the 6505 was not for me, but I didn't really know what i wanted. I ended up selling it and buying a used Vypyr 30, and I haven't missed it once. It wasn't a bad amp, just not the tone I wanted.

And you're not going to learn what you want from youtube videos. And especially not from comparing videos made in different settings by different people.


Oh yeah, I should say that the statement that I've heard many times around here, that your pickups don't matter through a Vypyr, is complete BS. All of my guitars don't sound the same at all, and pickups do make a noticeable difference. But I still recommend that you don't worry about your pickups until you get a better amp.
Last edited by W4RP1G at Apr 19, 2013,
DarthV
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#48
Quote by MrFlibble
A 5 watt amp is loud enough, when fully cranked through a 12" speaker, to be heard with a drummer in the room. You'll only barely be heard, though, and you'll be maxing the amp out which is rarely where any amp sounds its best. If you get an extension cab then a 5w amp into two 12" speakers can be just about usable for small gigs if you're a player who never needs to stand out (e.g. you strictly play basic rhythm parts). You'll still have to push the amp but you won't get lost quite as much.


If it can barely be heard, it's not keeping up. Not to mention some drummers think like The Hulk! With a 5 watter cranked you're never going to be able to have a clean sound. I'm sure for some styles, the lower wattage amps will work great, specially stuff that wants some of the sweet power tube breakup. But there's a reason why metal players are using those high wattage heads. It's not for volume, it's for headroom to be able to avoid power tube breakup.

And yeah, if you're going to be mic'd, you can use just about anything.
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#49
See: the rest of my post.
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FLuX25
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#50
Quote by W4RP1G
I'm always going to recommend for the Vypyr when people don't know what metal tone they want("thrash" is too vague of a preference to recommend any 1 amp). It's cheap, damn good, and has many options.

From my own experience, I learned that buying a tube amp isn't always better than buying a modeller, as some people had led me believe. I went out and bought a 6505+ 112 combo because it was so highly recommended for metal. I realized after a few years that the 6505 was not for me, but I didn't really know what i wanted. I ended up selling it and buying a used Vypyr 30, and I haven't missed it once. It wasn't a bad amp, just not the tone I wanted.

And you're not going to learn what you want from youtube videos. And especially not from comparing videos made in different settings by different people.


Oh yeah, I should say that the statement that I've heard many times around here, that your pickups don't matter through a Vypyr, is complete BS. All of my guitars don't sound the same at all, and pickups do make a noticeable difference. But I still recommend that you don't worry about your pickups until you get a better amp.


Yeah i think the vyper is going to be the best way to go. Its incredibly cheap and from what i can tell (not that i have any experience with it) sounds really good.
FLuX25
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#51
How does the vyper handle really low notes ? like the B on a 7 string
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#52
Very well. One of the few universal rules of solid state and valve amps is that solid state amps handle lower notes with more clarity and generally a 'tighter' sound. Of course the downside is they handle higher notes with a harsh edge that few people find appealing.

I actually will only use valve amps with 6-strings tuned to Drop C# or higher. For anything lower—7-strings especially—I only use solid state. I've yet to find a valve amp that, with any settings, can sound half as clear whilst still pumping out the same bass thump and power.
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FLuX25
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#53
Ok thanks. I think I'll go for the vyper. I have one question, can anyone tell me how the sound is on the vyper VIP range that also have the bass and acoustic modeling?
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#54
They're not in shops yet, at least not widely, so it's unlikely anybody has any experience with them beyond listening to the official product demos.

You can get acoustic simulator pedals which will offer you more options, if you want to be able to switch to an acoustic sound easily. Same with bass, though guitar pretending to be bass never sounds very good.
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FLuX25
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#55
Ok, thanks. I was just wondering because on online stores such as Amazon the price isnt really different to the regular vyper amps so if the sound is just as good it seemed worth it.
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#56
Something to bear in mind as you were asking about doing gigs. A 15w valve amp will be loud enough for gigs and if you get a 20w-30w valve amp you'll never get it to full volume without making your ears bleed BUT a 30w Vypyr will NOT do gigs. A solid state amp like that will start to sound like crap long before you get to maximum volume and if you're in a band situation, you'll find they don't cut through the mix quite as well either. If you're looking at solid state for a gig, you'll need at LEAST 75w as a bare minimum. It's like a said earlier; if you get a 30w Vypyr it will sound fine in your bedroom but you'll soon want/need to change it, partly because your ear will develop and you'll realise the sound isn't as great as a valve amp and partly because you'll soon realise that it just isn't practical for a gig. Even if it was powerful enough to do a gig and still sound reasonable, it still isn't viable for a gig unless you buy the optional foot controller and by the time you've done that, you could have bought a decent valve amp anyway. It's your money but I promise you, if you get the Vypyr you'll soon be wanting out of it and you'll never do a decent gig with it. False economy.
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#57
I actually will only use valve amps with 6-strings tuned to Drop C# or higher. For anything lower—7-strings especially—I only use solid state. I've yet to find a valve amp that, with any settings, can sound half as clear whilst still pumping out the same bass thump and power.


Just out of curiosity, have you tried any of the systems designed for amplifying basses, or perhaps keyboards?
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aerosmithfan95
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#58
Quote by W4RP1G
*Story about selling 6505+ for a Vypyr


Quote by MrFlibble
Very well. One of the few universal rules of solid state and valve amps is that solid state amps handle lower notes with more clarity and generally a 'tighter' sound. Of course the downside is they handle higher notes with a harsh edge that few people find appealing.

I actually will only use valve amps with 6-strings tuned to Drop C# or higher. For anything lower—7-strings especially—I only use solid state. I've yet to find a valve amp that, with any settings, can sound half as clear whilst still pumping out the same bass thump and power.


Also, since I missed your this whole amp thing in my first post, i thought I'd add some insight.

Both of these posts basically tie in with what I believe. Tubes aren't always better than Solid States. As MrFibble said, solid states seem to handle lower notes a bit more and from what I've witnessed, Tubes are good with anything higher than Drop C/C Standard. I mean, why do you think so many bassist use SS amps as opposed to tubes? Tubes usually won't handle really low notes (like on a 7-string) so well with the downside of the higher pitched not have a "pleasing" sound (most of the time, that is).

And yeah, considering many people have different definitions of what they classify as "Thrash Metal", I think the Peavey Vypyr 30 is a great choice. I actually had the opportunity to play them a bit and they can handle a vast amount of tones that sound great even for a modelling amp.
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FLuX25
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#59
I think a Vyper 75 watt is a going to be the best choice because i do plan on using it for a 7 string guitar as well and i dont want something that can handle the low B string. Also the sound on the peavey from what i can tell is amazing. I would however like to try one out in person before buying anything.
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#60
Yes, i would definitely recommend doing so. In person is the best way to tell if the amp is for you.
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DarthV
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#62
Quote by aerosmithfan95
Also, since I missed your this whole amp thing in my first post, i thought I'd add some insight.

Both of these posts basically tie in with what I believe. Tubes aren't always better than Solid States. As MrFibble said, solid states seem to handle lower notes a bit more and from what I've witnessed, Tubes are good with anything higher than Drop C/C Standard. I mean, why do you think so many bassist use SS amps as opposed to tubes? Tubes usually won't handle really low notes (like on a 7-string) so well with the downside of the higher pitched not have a "pleasing" sound (most of the time, that is).

And yeah, considering many people have different definitions of what they classify as "Thrash Metal", I think the Peavey Vypyr 30 is a great choice. I actually had the opportunity to play them a bit and they can handle a vast amount of tones that sound great even for a modelling amp.


The reasons a lot of bass players play solid state are because they want to stay clean and due to how much power you need to drive the low frequencies. They usually are going for heads that can output 300w+. For a tube head, that's 6 power valves, beefy OT and a lot of weight. Fender, Orange, Ampeg etc make valve bass amps. Just cheaper, more power and lighter to go SS.

Have no idea where you get the idea that valve amps can't handle low frequencies, there aren't many metal bands that don't use valve amps. That's with 7s or 6s tuned well below C standard.
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FLuX25
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#63
Quote by DarthV
The reasons a lot of bass players play solid state are because they want to stay clean and due to how much power you need to drive the low frequencies. They usually are going for heads that can output 300w+. For a tube head, that's 6 power valves, beefy OT and a lot of weight. Fender, Orange, Ampeg etc make valve bass amps. Just cheaper, more power and lighter to go SS.

Have no idea where you get the idea that valve amps can't handle low frequencies, there aren't many metal bands that don't use valve amps. That's with 7s or 6s tuned well below C standard.


so do you think that blackstar ht-5 would be ok with a 7 string and wont get too muddy with the low string?
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#64
Quote by FLuX25
so do you think that blackstar ht-5 would be ok with a 7 string and wont get too muddy with the low string?

If you know what you're doing it will definately work.

http://tonefinder.com/files/38-ssdTest-17.mp3

Here's a boosted HT-5 with a 7-string.
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FLuX25
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#65
Wow that sounds **** amazing! Can anybody tell me how loud the blackstar ht - 5 combo can go compared to a line6 spider III 30 watt? the rythm guitarist in my band has the spider III30 and it copes fine with small gigs and practices so if the ht-5c is as loud as that it will be fine.
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#66
Quote by dannyalcatraz
Just out of curiosity, have you tried any of the systems designed for amplifying basses, or perhaps keyboards?
Not with low tunings. I tried an Orange bass amp with regular 6-string Eb Standard, chasing that early electric blues tone, and didn't like it very much. I've heard people using keyboard amps and small vocal PAs with guitar and it's sounded okay clean, not heard anyone trying it with distortion, though.
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Doadman
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#67
A 5w valve amp will live with a Vypyr 30w, partly because as the volume increases, valve amps tend to sound better whereas solid state amps start to sound worse. The only problem with a 5w valve as opposed to a 30w solid state is a lack of clean headroom. A 20w Jet City is a very good amp and quite cheap but again, not huge amounts of headroom.
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FLuX25
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#68
when u say head room what exactly do you mean ? I'm pretty new to this sort of thing.
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#69
Quote by FLuX25
when u say head room what exactly do you mean ? I'm pretty new to this sort of thing.



Headroom, how clean the sound stays as you crank the volume up before it starts to distort and potentially turn ugly. In tube amps some poweramp distortion is considered a good thing and is usually the source of classic rock distortions. But even that can be not desireable. With solid state amps poweramp distortion is always a bad thing, it sounds terrible.

Blackstar HT's are hybrids in both pre and poweramp section, I have no idea how it behaves when pushed loud.

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Last edited by MaaZeus at Apr 20, 2013,
Doadman
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#71
It depends on the sound you're after. If you want it loud and clean, probably the Vypyr will be louder because it will have a bit more headroom on the clean channel but the more you push the distortion on the Vypyr, the worse it will sound, which is why you need a higher wattage if you're gigging with solid state amps. By the same token, distorted solid state amps can often sound better than distorted valve amps IF you're playing at bedroom levels but the louder you get, the better the valve amp will start to sound. The solid state amp will not only start to sound worse as the volume rises, it will also tend to cut through the mix in a band worse as well. This is why solid state amps are great as practice amps but if you want to gig with one, you'll need at LEAST 75w and preferably higher so that you can be loud enough without having to turn the amp up too much.

I use a Blackstar HT 60w, which is the same series as the HT-5 so I can give you some general pointers about it. Firstly, it does sound better and better as it gets louder. The distortion is fantastic. It's a bit like a Marshall but with a more modern edge to it. I use a 60w because it gives me clean headroom as well as a couple of other features that don't come on the smaller ones that are useful for gigging. My Blackstar also dispels another myth that is often put about on here - namely that when you're gigging you need a 'stack'. Rubbish - you don't. I used to use a Marshall 4X12 cab with my amp and it was completely impractical and largely a waste. Firstly, when you're playing in a pub/club, space is REALLY at a premium so a 4X12 just uses up valuable space on stage and gives you transport issues. Secondly, I found that on a 4X12, most of it is wasted. The bottom 2 speakers go straight into the audiences legs unless you're up on a reasonable size stage so you're only left with 2 speakers. I find I can get much the same effect by using a 1X12 combo on an amp stand, especially as a lout of what the audience hears is coming through the PA anyway.

If you want an amp for playing at home or something to tide you over until you can get a valve amp, get the Vypyr 30w as it is very good for what it is. If you want an amp to practice at home but also have the odd practice session with a band and the odd jam night/gig, get a Vypyr 75w as it will be great at home and is adequate for very limited live use. If you really plan on gigging, you really are better off with a valve amp and for gigging, I'd say 15w is an absolute minimum and if you want any sort of clean headroom, you'll need at least 30w. My first valve amp was a 40w and it was enough. The only reason I have the 60w version is the features it has on it that the 40w Blackstar doesn't. If you REALLY like cleans, get a 40w Fender and a couple of good distortion/overdrive boxes. The other guitarist in my band uses a Fender 40w valve amp and a Blackstar HT-Dual pedal and the result is awesome. Realistically, valve amps cost more so it may not be something you can afford to do right now and that's fine - we all have to start somewhere but if you go solid state, please don't spend much money on it because you honestly won't be wanting to keep it long term. The first decent sized amp I got was a 65w solid state and I wanted to use it for gigs. It soon became apparent that it wasn't ideal and although I started playing with a band using that amp, by the time we did our first gig, it had long since gone and I'd changed it for a valve amp. I'd never go back. When I tried that 65w solid state amp I also listened to a valve amp and thought they both sounded good but looking back, I now realise that my ear simply wasn't developed enough and doing the same exercise now, the solid state amp sounds awful in comparison. Your ear will also develop over time and you'll wonder why you ever thought a solid state 30w sounded good.
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#72
Even though I think doadman is extremely biased, I will say that he's right about getting a tube amp over and Vypyr for gigging.

In my experience, the Vypyr is unreliable. It's not just a solid state, but also digital software, and buggy at times. I've used most of the firmwares, and the one I'm using now is the least buggy, but it still freezes when I cycle through that presets too fast. I don't gig with it, and I'd be scared if I had to. For bedroom play and band practice, it's not a big deal, but I wouldn't want to use it in a show.

Sorry I didn't think about this earlier. And I'll also mention that those problems that doadman mentioned, about solid states sounding worse as the volume increases, aren't really an issue on a Vypyr. It doesn't sound better like a tube amp might, but it certainly doesn't sound worse.
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#73
Although it's fair to say I don't own a Vypyr, in my defence, my cousin has a Vypyr 30w that he bought on my recommendation so I have played through it a few times. It is good as a practice amp and I have no issue with that but I stand by the fact it's not a gigging amp.
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#74
The thing about solid states and power amp distortion is you have to be driving them really absurdly hard and loud to get any power amp distortion at all. Yes, when it does happen, it sounds awful. But they stay clean for much longer, even at the same wattage. A 5w valve amp will be maxed out and clipping far, far before a 30w solid state amp will (or a 5w SS amp, for that matter).

Almost all distortion with solid state has to be intentional. You can't really drive a solid state unless you're boosting everything five times over. Valve amps can be distorted with much less force; simply turning them up loud usually does the trick, or using higher-output pickups will do it.

A bigger and more common problem with solid states is that by the time the power amp is clipping, you're driving the speaker so hard it's going to sound atrocious (if not clipping itself) and most peoples' experience with solid states is with small combo amps that have crap speakers to begin with.

That said, solid state amps' volume is more directly related to their power than with valve amps. A 10w valve amp and a 50w valve amp can both be equally as loud, quality of the sound notwithstanding. A 10w solid state amp will be completely drowned out by a 50w solid state amp. Not to mention, when pitting a valve amp against a solid state, the solid state needs far more power to seem as loud. Even though solid states and valve amps technically create the same volume, to human hearing the valve amp will be much louder.

With valve amps, you buy more power for more clean headroom and less compression. With solid state amps you're buying more power for more volume, especially when you need to drive more speakers.


As far as the 5w valve vs 30w SS thing goes, I personally do not think it particularly matters. If anything I would lean towards the solid state, at least for any kind of metal. A 5w valve amp can just about be heard over a drum kit, but not well and at that point you'll be getting such a compressed sound that even if there were no drums, nobody would really be able to tell what you were playing. I personally would not use anything less than 15w. 25w or more is what I'd aim for, if I was sticking with valves.
With solid state, clarity isn't such an issue. It's going to sound pretty much the same no matter what volume you're playing at. The issue becomes pushing enough air and having enough presence to the sound. A 1x12", or single-speaker combo, isn't going to cut it. You're going to need at least two 12" speakers and power to match.

As someone who uses solid state and valve amps simultaneously, I really wouldn't recommend either 5w valve or 30w solid state. 15/50 is what I'd aim for, minimum.
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aerosmithfan95
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#75
Quote by DarthV
The reasons a lot of bass players play solid state are because they want to stay clean and due to how much power you need to drive the low frequencies. They usually are going for heads that can output 300w+. For a tube head, that's 6 power valves, beefy OT and a lot of weight. Fender, Orange, Ampeg etc make valve bass amps. Just cheaper, more power and lighter to go SS.

Have no idea where you get the idea that valve amps can't handle low frequencies, there aren't many metal bands that don't use valve amps. That's with 7s or 6s tuned well below C standard.


Well, I should have been a bit more clear on that. With basses, when you play them through a tube amp, they sound a bit weird and odd to me. Now, the thing with down-tuned guitars (Drop B or a 7 string), the notes are in the frequency that bass guitars usually play and most of the time, it sounds bad to me.

And I agree with you, Solid States for bass allow you to get louder while remaining clean. In my opinion, I don't think lower frequencies don't do justice to tube amps and vice versa.

And again, I just woke up, so I'm sorry if this is a bit foggy.

Edit: There have been instances where lowered tuned bands sound great, but most of the time, I don't like their tone.
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Last edited by aerosmithfan95 at Apr 21, 2013,
nick@lacemusic
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#76
If you're looking for clear passive tone that'll run with thrash metal and down tuned sounds but still hold true give the Lace Drop and Gain a shot with a Nitro Hemi in the neck. The Drop and Gain has the backing of metal man Wino, and Bill Kelliher runs the nitro hemis in his Gibson Custom guitars. I personally had to back off a bunch of mid range just cuz of the power in these bad boys. We like to think they can run with any active pickups, and they dont get too much bite when clean like a SH-8 or some of the other high gain pickups can. Very smooth sound but enough bottom end to chug the single top string. hope this helps feel free to ask about more i work for Lace.