Page 4 of 4
#121
Quote by Archer250
There's something wrong with your worldview. Smallpox is a disease caused by micro-organisms, lions are predatory animals that evolved to eat meat. The incisors are a product of evolution, designed to help in tearing meat (which actually DOES mean that meat has been in our diet for millennia).

Would a vegan bear make sense to you?

It was taken to extremes, but the point is appeals to nature or history really can't be used as ethical advice. There are a lot of things that are natural that are bad, and a lot of things that we did historically which are bad. That something is part of the natural order (smallpox killing people) doesn't mean it's to be encouraged or even accepted, and similarly that historically we were hunted by natural predators (eg lions) doesn't mean we should be fine with it.

That meat has been part of our diet for a long while doesn't mean it is automatically ok to eat it, especially when (as has been mentioned) it was a means to an end (nutrition and survival), not an end in itself. Our evolutionary form simply can't be used as a moral standard, it makes no sense.

A bear has no capacity to choose or shape its diet in any way, but hey if you think you're not better than a bear you go for it.
If in a zoo a bear could be given a vegan diet with all the nutrients it needed, I see no problem with that. The bear is fed and happy. A bear can't do so in the wild as it has neither the resources nor intelligence to do so, but we do have both the resources and intelligence to shape our diets.
#122
Quote by MadClownDisease
It was taken to extremes, but the point is appeals to nature or history really can't be used as ethical advice. There are a lot of things that are natural that are bad, and a lot of things that we did historically which are bad. That something is part of the natural order (smallpox killing people) doesn't mean it's to be encouraged or even accepted, and similarly that historically we were hunted by natural predators (eg lions) doesn't mean we should be fine with it.

That meat has been part of our diet for a long while doesn't mean it is automatically ok to eat it, especially when (as has been mentioned) it was a means to an end (nutrition and survival), not an end in itself. Our evolutionary form simply can't be used as a moral standard, it makes no sense.

A bear has no capacity to choose or shape its diet in any way, but hey if you think you're not better than a bear you go for it.
If in a zoo a bear could be given a vegan diet with all the nutrients it needed, I see no problem with that. The bear is fed and happy. A bear can't do so in the wild as it has neither the resources nor intelligence to do so, but we do have both the resources and intelligence to shape our diets.
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#123
Quote by MadClownDisease
It was taken to extremes, but the point is appeals to nature or history really can't be used as ethical advice. There are a lot of things that are natural that are bad, and a lot of things that we did historically which are bad. That something is part of the natural order (smallpox killing people) doesn't mean it's to be encouraged or even accepted, and similarly that historically we were hunted by natural predators (eg lions) doesn't mean we should be fine with it.

That meat has been part of our diet for a long while doesn't mean it is automatically ok to eat it, especially when (as has been mentioned) it was a means to an end (nutrition and survival), not an end in itself. Our evolutionary form simply can't be used as a moral standard, it makes no sense.

A bear has no capacity to choose or shape its diet in any way, but hey if you think you're not better than a bear you go for it.
If in a zoo a bear could be given a vegan diet with all the nutrients it needed, I see no problem with that. The bear is fed and happy. A bear can't do so in the wild as it has neither the resources nor intelligence to do so, but we do have both the resources and intelligence to shape our diets.



And with what reasoning do you suppose you're better than a bear? A bear, indeed, *can* choose what to eat, it merely is smart enough not to be picky.
And seriously, why not use our evolutionary trait as a standard? Morality is subjective and undefinable, what makes killing animals for meat wrong?

I'm going to point out the implied hypocrisy here: I'm sure our intelligence is what you use to separate us from the "animals". Your belief can be reduced to "We should be different from animals because we have a more advanced brain". The brain is a product of evolution that gives the animal an edge to survive, yet you believe that our evolutionary form simply can't be used as a moral standard.
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#124
Quote by Archer250
And with what reasoning do you suppose you're better than a bear? A bear, indeed, *can* choose what to eat, it merely is smart enough not to be picky.
And seriously, why not use our evolutionary trait as a standard? Morality is subjective and undefinable, what makes killing animals for meat wrong?

I'm going to point out the implied hypocrisy here: I'm sure our intelligence is what you use to separate us from the "animals". Your belief can be reduced to "We should be different from animals because we have a more advanced brain". The brain is a product of evolution that gives the animal an edge to survive, yet you believe that our evolutionary form simply can't be used as a moral standard.

With what reasoning do I suppose I'm more intelligent than a bear? Really? A bear can't step back and appraise his behaviour or figure out ways to go about any other lifestyle. Are you honestly trying to claim you think bears are just as able to critically assess their behaviour as humans?

And because you think morality is subjective and undefinable doesn't mean that you should just arbitrarily hit upon evolution as a standard. In any case no I don't think morality is subjective and undefinable, it's a matter of the welfare and mental states of beings with minds. Causing animals suffering is wrong because it causes suffering. That's not subjective or undefinable; it's universal across all animals (including humans) that suffering and pain are bad, and is clearly observable and measurable.

I really don't understand your second point here. Firstly, even were I using intelligence as a moral standard (which I'm not), that it comes about evolutionarily doesn't mean that it is the same as using evolution as a standard. All that using intelligence as a standard would entail is... using intelligence as a standard. Its evolutionary causes are neither here nor there.

Regardless of which, I'm not using intelligence as a moral standard. I am saying due to their superior intelligence, humans are able to appraise their actions in a way a bear is not. It would be better if bears were able to recognise that causing pain to other animals is bad and find an alternative way of sustainance, but they can't and so that a bear will continue doing that is no indication that we should too, seeing as we actually can appraise our behaviour.
Last edited by MadClownDisease at Apr 23, 2013,
#125
Quote by MadClownDisease
With what reasoning do I suppose I'm more intelligent than a bear? Really? A bear can't step back and appraise his behaviour or figure out ways to go about any other lifestyle. Are you honestly trying to claim you think bears are just as able to critically assess their behaviour as humans?

And because you think morality is subjective and undefinable doesn't mean that you should just arbitrarily hit upon evolution as a standard. In any case no I don't think morality is subjective and undefinable, it's a matter of the welfare and mental states of beings with minds. Causing animals suffering is wrong because it causes suffering. That's not subjective or undefinable; it's universal across all animals (including humans) that suffering and pain are bad, and is clearly observable and measurable.

I really don't understand your second point here. Firstly, even were I using intelligence as a moral standard (which I'm not), that it comes about evolutionarily doesn't mean that it is the same as using evolution as a standard. All that using intelligence as a standard would entail is... using intelligence as a standard. Its evolutionary causes are neither here nor there.

Regardless of which, I'm not using intelligence as a moral standard. I am saying due to their superior intelligence, humans are able to appraise their actions in a way a bear is not. It would be better if bears were able to recognise that causing pain to other animals is bad and find an alternative way of sustainance, but they can't and so that a bear will continue doing that is no indication that we should too, seeing as we actually can appraise our behaviour.


I just notice something. Why are we basing our argument on a goddamn example?

"I am saying due to their superior intelligence, humans are able to appraise their actions in a way a bear is not"
That IS using intelligence as a standard! If "We have incisors, so meat is in our diet" is using evolutionary trait as standard, then "we're smarter, so we should know that causing pain to others is bad" IS using intelligence as standard.
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#126
Quote by Archer250

I'm going to point out the implied hypocrisy here: I'm sure our intelligence is what you use to separate us from the "animals". Your belief can be reduced to "We should be different from animals because we have a more advanced brain". The brain is a product of evolution that gives the animal an edge to survive, yet you believe that our evolutionary form simply can't be used as a moral standard.


Reading comprehension fail. He was suggesting that we do not need to eat meat to satisfy our dietary requirements, and doing so causes pain and harm, therefore we should abstain as we are able to. Nothing about intelligence there, pal.
#127
I just had an awesome steak for dinner


That is all
___

Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
#128
Quote by Archer250
I just notice something. Why are we basing our argument on a goddamn example?

"I am saying due to their superior intelligence, humans are able to appraise their actions in a way a bear is not"
That IS using intelligence as a standard! If "We have incisors, so meat is in our diet" is using evolutionary trait as standard, then "we're smarter, so we should know that causing pain to others is bad" IS using intelligence as standard.

Because it's easier to keep track of exactly what is said using an example. The argument isn't peculiar to bears, it's just a way of demonstrating what we're saying without getting too abstract.

Again, I am not using intelligence as a moral standard. I am saying intelligence makes us more able to appraise and modify our actions in light of a moral standard (suffering of beings); you are saying that having incisors (by which you mean canines, I assume) is a moral standard itself.

You are saying that what makes this action right or wrong is us having a certain type of tooth, whereas I'm saying that what makes the action right or wrong is its affect on the welfare of animals.

Intelligence doesn't make something right or wrong (we're no more inherently valuable than animals simply by virtue of intelligence, although I imagine it does make our capacity for suffering greater in some regards), it simply makes us able to identify and act upon what is right and wrong.
#129
Quote by MadClownDisease
Erm... yes it does. Animals bred for food are bred and killed to demand. Demand less, less are killed.


Exactly!!Also, at the end of the day, maybe one person being vegetarian may not save all the animals in the world, however that one person can sleep at night knowing they didn't contribute to and support the slaughter of animals.
I'm not saying not to trust the internet, but there's an alarming discrepancy between the number of iPads I've won & the number of iPads I own.
#130
Quote by Twofly
Exactly!!Also, at the end of the day, maybe one person being vegetarian may not save all the animals in the world, however that one person can sleep at night knowing they didn't contribute to and support the slaughter of animals.


and I can sleep at night knowing that I don't give a shit.
Quote by GLP_Arclite
Pooping is well good though, to be fair.


I've got a handle on the fiction.

I'm losing my grip, 'cos I'm losing my fingers.
#131
Quote by metacarpi
and I can sleep at night knowing that I don't give a shit.


Ofcourse you can!That's the beauty of life...personal choice!
I'm not saying not to trust the internet, but there's an alarming discrepancy between the number of iPads I've won & the number of iPads I own.
#132
You can not eat meat and still contribute to the suffering of animals in a wide variety of ways. Really kidding yourself there.
#133
Quote by Thrashtastic15
You can not eat meat and still contribute to the suffering of animals in a wide variety of ways. Really kidding yourself there.


Like all the poor field critters slaughtered during harvest by the huge machines tearing through the fields.

You heartless bastards!
Quote by GLP_Arclite
Pooping is well good though, to be fair.


I've got a handle on the fiction.

I'm losing my grip, 'cos I'm losing my fingers.
#134
I don't eat meat because....

A. it's unhealthy

B. it doesn't taste that good

C. i don't have the heart to eat an animal

D. it kinda makes you fat.
#135
Quote by WCPhils
I just had an awesome steak for dinner


That is all

nice, I got some soft shells and cheese and made quesadillas

also yeah unless you're growing your own food your a hippocrate
#136
Quote by Erc
I don't eat meat because....

A. it's unhealthy

B. it doesn't taste that good

C. i don't have the heart to eat an animal

D. it kinda makes you fat.


That's got to be the shittiest list of reasons I've ever seen not to eat meat. Unhealthy? Only if you eat to excess, same as just about anything else. It tastes ****ing brilliant, there's a reason people rave about bacon. It makes you fat? Maybe if you incessantly eat shit cuts that are covered with fat.

Quote by Weaponized
nice, I got some soft shells and cheese and made quesadillas

also yeah unless you're growing your own food your a hippocrate




D'awwww
Quote by GLP_Arclite
Pooping is well good though, to be fair.


I've got a handle on the fiction.

I'm losing my grip, 'cos I'm losing my fingers.
#138
Quote by Weaponized
nice, I got some taco wraps and cheese and made quesadillas

also yeah unless you're growing your own food your a hippocrate


fixed
#140
Quote by Thrashtastic15
You can not eat meat and still contribute to the suffering of animals in a wide variety of ways. Really kidding yourself there.

So? I can not abuse children and still unintentionally contribute to the suffering of children. That doesn't mean I might as well abuse children anyway.


All or nothing thinking like that is a bit ridiculous.
#141
Quote by Weaponized
nice, I got some soft shells and cheese and made quesadillas

also yeah unless you're growing your own food your a hippocrate

mmm, that sounds good
___

Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
#142
I made some udon noodles today. Instead of throwing in some chicken or pork slices I threw some cubes of tofu.

Just because I felt like it.


I this world.


Gonna have steak and salad for dinner later.
O.K.

“There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want.”
~ Bill Watterson


O__o
#143
Even if you don't feel like eating meat, you are morally obliged to eat ducks . Ducks are all psychotic rapist anyway, and they all deserve to be slow-cooked and enjoyed with gravy.
Alright people, Move along - there is nothing to see.
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#144
Quote by MadClownDisease
So? I can not abuse children and still unintentionally contribute to the suffering of children. That doesn't mean I might as well abuse children anyway.


All or nothing thinking like that is a bit ridiculous.


How?
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#146
Quote by Todd Hart
How?

Not stopping it, or taking part in a culture or practice that causes it (in the same way some people say watching porn might contribute to abusing women), buying sweatshop clothes etc etc.

It was just to demonstrate a point though, that's not to say that people do generally do that.
#147
i has no idea where this thread went but i shall re state my thesis

you can choose to not consume animal meat for many reasons, but if your reasons have anything to do with morals rather than health reasons, and you arent actually doing anything proactive about preventing animal slaughtering, you are being a bit hypocritical. you have to realize you arent helping anyone by not eating meat. so dont think you are doing a good thing
#148
For every animal my vegetarian cousin doesn't eat, I eat three, effectively eliminating the animal she saves, and killing an extra one.
#149
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
i has no idea where this thread went but i shall re state my thesis

you can choose to not consume animal meat for many reasons, but if your reasons have anything to do with morals rather than health reasons, and you arent actually doing anything proactive about preventing animal slaughtering, you are being a bit hypocritical. you have to realize you arent helping anyone by not eating meat. so dont think you are doing a good thing

No offence, but that's probably the worst thesis ever.
Marge: You know Homer, it's easy to criticize.
Homer: Fun too!

Vegetarian Pastafarian
#150
Here's a thought.

Why are omnivores so freaked out about vegetarianism? Really? Ok, maybe we get a bit preachy at times, but seriously lets all just eat what the frick we want and get on with life.
#151
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
i has no idea where this thread went but i shall re state my thesis

you can choose to not consume animal meat for many reasons, but if your reasons have anything to do with morals rather than health reasons, and you arent actually doing anything proactive about preventing animal slaughtering, you are being a bit hypocritical. you have to realize you arent helping anyone by not eating meat. so dont think you are doing a good thing
You're dumb as hell.
Quote by macashmack
For every animal my vegetarian cousin doesn't eat, I eat three, effectively eliminating the animal she saves, and killing an extra one.
You're annoying as hell.
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

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#152
Quote by lolmnt
You're annoying as hell.

That's the point. It's a very good strategy to use against vegetarians.
#153
Quote by macashmack
That's the point. It's a very good strategy to use against vegetarians.

Why would you need to use a strategy against vegetarians? You came into a thread about vegetarianism. The best strategy is to stay out of the thread if you want to avoid vegetarians.

I won't be tasteless enough to make a joke about the food you eat making you stupid. Except that tasteless is a pun. Oh I don't know what to do now.
Marge: You know Homer, it's easy to criticize.
Homer: Fun too!

Vegetarian Pastafarian
#154
Quote by circus musician
Why would you need to use a strategy against vegetarians? You came into a thread about vegetarianism. The best strategy is to stay out of the thread if you want to avoid vegetarians.

I won't be tasteless enough to make a joke about the food you eat making you stupid. Except that tasteless is a pun. Oh I don't know what to do now.

Lol I don't actually do that though you guys. Although it is pretty funny
In all seriousness I don't care what anyone eats. But in my experience, you vegetarians are usually more judgmental and condescending to us non-vegetarians than it is the other way around. The worst we go is usually "Why are you a vegetarian? Meat tastes so good!" or "I could never be a vegetarian, I like meat too much". You guys go "oh you're immoral, do you know how the animals are killed? do you know how bad meat is for you?" etc.

(not saying you in particular but I'm just saying in general).
#155
Quote by MadClownDisease
So? I can not abuse children and still unintentionally contribute to the suffering of children. That doesn't mean I might as well abuse children anyway.


All or nothing thinking like that is a bit ridiculous.



Sleep easy at night knowing you did absolutely nothing to change the practices that evidently horrify you. Horrify you so much that you aren't even committed enough to even see your own measly consumer impact through to its logical end. All you lot are is big talk with no action.
#156


I'm not saying I totally agree with that. Obviously some people have to kill animals to survive. I'm lucky enough to live in America and have lots of foods to choose from, so I make a choice not to eat animal products. It's like saying, oh everyone chops down trees, so by not chopping down trees you aren't making a difference. But you're at least not adding to the problem.
Last edited by designerpajamas at Apr 25, 2013,
#157
Quote by Thrashtastic15


Sleep easy at night knowing you did absolutely nothing to change the practices that evidently horrify you. Horrify you so much that you aren't even committed enough to even see your own measly consumer impact through to its logical end. All you lot are is big talk with no action.

I can't tell if you're trolling or just stupid here.

A) as has been said many times (though sgtpeppers seems to be ignoring it), not eating meat DOES change practices that vegetarians might be opposed to. Impact as a consumer isn't "measly", it is in fact the best impact you can make against an industry.
B) as I also just said, that you can't achieve all your ends doesn't mean that trying to achieve any one of them is useless. I agree that people who support animal welfare shouldn't just oppose eating meat and not the rest, however that doesn't mean that not eating meat is pointless because of the rest.
If x y and z are all behaviours you think are wrong, that someone doesn't abstain from y and z doesn't mean it's not still good that they don't do x.

"Oh I see you murdered my youngest child! Well that was wrong, so you might as well have killed my other two kids too." - clearly that's just plain stupid (not to say eating meat is equivalent to killing someone's children, btw)

I think I can see what you're aiming at, but still all or nothing thinking is really ridiculous.

EDIT: actually sorry, "trolling or stupid" was probably a bit of a strong statement. But still, I disagree.
Last edited by MadClownDisease at Apr 25, 2013,
#158
Quote by designerpajamas


I'm not saying I totally agree with that.

The alien's reasoning is sound to me.
___

Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
#159
Quote by designerpajamas


I'm not saying I totally agree with that. Obviously some people have to kill animals to survive. I'm lucky enough to live in America and have lots of foods to choose from, so I make a choice not to eat animal products. It's like saying, oh everyone chops down trees, so by not chopping down trees you aren't making a difference. But you're at least not adding to the problem.


I don't see a problem here: if there's a species that is capable of experiencing more pain or pleasure than us then it's priorities take precedence, just as ours take precedence over the chicken.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#160
Quote by designerpajamas




I'm perfectly fine with this.
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