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#41
Quote by deano_l
Yes you are spot on. Verbatin from the manual. Also from the manual the Rated input level is -20dBm. So if I force feed +4db into that to use the G3X as my source of modulation, delay and reverb effects (ignoring the amp modelling etc), then that is surely going to cause problems.

Yes I know I need to visit shops and try them out. I intend to, but I need to plan that out properly as local small shops only carry the very common gear inteneded for beginners or for gigging metal players who throw stuff into vans!

The other issue is that many shops are not above saying "Oh yes, we've got that in stock" and when you get there after a two hour drive say "Oh, sorry we've sold it... but this Blackstar 100w stack that we've got hundreds of is just right for you".

Cynical? Yep. Wrong? Nope. Then people wonder why I hate buying gear.

Your view that you have found modulation effects to be best in the front of the amp is all well and good, but what if I decide in five years that I want to rely on channel 2 for gain? Then the modulation effects going into the front sound poor. So I switch them to the loop and subject them to +4db of gain?

Here's the thing. A amp with a line level loop requires a effects unit in the loop that can deliver a line level signal. Your not force feeding the G3X, the G3X is the one that needs to be capable of delivering a +4dB output signal to the FX return of the amp to avoid a volume drop. It's not going to get overloaded because the amp has a +4dB line level loop. Now if you were to use a -10dB instrument level pedal in there, it better have a level(volume) knob on it, otherwise a clean boost fixes the drop in volume.

As far as the way i like my modulation, I prefer it with or without excessive preamp gain right in front of the amp. It doesn't sound poor, it modulates the guitar signal instead of the whole preamp+guitar together at once. But hey that's the way I like it.

Your just too hyper worried. Doesn't Andertons have a selection of amps with them?
#42
Ah, I see. So as long as the effect loop SEND socket is above the INPUT of the effect, the effect will attenuate the signal down to a level it can use?

And as long as the effect OUTPUT can pass a signal equal to or greater than the effects loop RETURN socket, the amp is happy?

Is that correct? So sending +4Db into an effects instrument level (-20Db) input isn't going to cause any issues?

If that is the case then the Tweaker 15 may well go back on the list, given any further qualifications regarding the wattage level and whether the 40 is "better" for my needs.

Thanks for that.

EDITED to add...

But at the OvniLab site I found this…

If you send a line-level signal into a device that's meant for instrument or mic-level input, you will get distortion.


So now I’m confused again, because some people are saying their G3’s or whatever are working fine in the Tweaker 15’s loop. Are they sending the Tweakers signal to the G3 and if so, why isn’t it distorted per the quote above?

So you can see why I am dubious about the Tweaker 15. It may have great tone, but some other amps do without the doubts around the effects loop.

Yes you can buy level converters or add a boost pedal to go in the Tweaker 15’s loop, but why should I have to do that? Surely it is introducing a compromise somewhere in the signal chain which is not necessary if I buy something else?
Last edited by deano_l at Oct 23, 2013,
#43
Quote by deano_l
Ah, I see. So as long as the effect loop SEND socket is above the INPUT of the effect, the effect will attenuate the signal down to a level it can use?

And as long as the effect OUTPUT can pass a signal equal to or greater than the effects loop RETURN socket, the amp is happy?

Is that correct? So sending +4Db into an effects instrument level (-20Db) input isn't going to cause any issues?

If that is the case then the Tweaker 15 may well go back on the list, given any further qualifications regarding the wattage level and whether the 40 is "better" for my needs.

Thanks for that.

EDITED to add...

But at the OvniLab site I found this…


So now I’m confused again, because some people are saying their G3’s or whatever are working fine in the Tweaker 15’s loop. Are they sending the Tweakers signal to the G3 and if so, why isn’t it distorted per the quote above?

So you can see why I am dubious about the Tweaker 15. It may have great tone, but some other amps do without the doubts around the effects loop.

Yes you can buy level converters or add a boost pedal to go in the Tweaker 15’s loop, but why should I have to do that? Surely it is introducing a compromise somewhere in the signal chain which is not necessary if I buy something else?


At this point you really only have a couple of options.

1. You can listen to the people here who actually OWN and USE the products in question, and have repeatedly, persistently and politely provided informed commentary.

2. You can continue to scour the 'net for out-of-context statements that reinforce your own preconceptions, and ignore the advice here.

That's it. It really IS that simple. YOU have to decide where the credibility resides.

Because at the end of the day, it's you spending the money, and you that has to live with the decision.

But to continue to 'what if' people to the point of argumentation that are simply trying to help without pay, reward or skin in the game isn't really helping anyone, yourself included.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at Oct 23, 2013,
#44
Quote by deano_l
Ah, I see. So as long as the effect loop SEND socket is above the INPUT of the effect, the effect will attenuate the signal down to a level it can use?

And as long as the effect OUTPUT can pass a signal equal to or greater than the effects loop RETURN socket, the amp is happy?

Is that correct? So sending +4Db into an effects instrument level (-20Db) input isn't going to cause any issues?
Not as simple as that. You have to look at specs. The G3 is capable of +5dbm into 10K ohms. Also the device needs to be able to attenuate the input of have enough headroom to accept the higher level input signal. While the G3 specs don't reveal this information in my tests it is capable. Also it has an active selection on the input that suggests it can handle higher level signals.

Other instrument level devices may not meet the requirements to go in a line level loop. Lastly sending +4db into a -20db input is not guaranteed to work at all. It is possible that it will overdrive the input into distorting. Or it is possible that it has an input gain control that allows you to attenuate the signal with no problems.
#45
Quote by Arby911
At this point you really only have a couple of options.

1. You can listen to the people here who actually OWN and USE the products in question, and have repeatedly, persistently and politely provided informed commentary.

2. You can continue to scour the 'net for out-of-context statements that reinforce your own preconceptions, and ignore the advice here.

That's it. It really IS that simple. YOU have to decide where the credibility resides.

Because at the end of the day, it's you spending the money, and you that has to live with the decision.

But to continue to 'what if' people to the point of argumentation that are simply trying to help without pay, reward or skin in the game isn't really helping anyone, yourself included.


Well the point is I'm not arguing for the sake of it!

People have stated that I can safely ignore the effects loop "issue" of the Tweaker 15 because their specific pedal works fine. But I can google and find that the MXR Carbopn Copy, for example doesn't. So it isn't something that can be safely ignored if, in the future, I wish to buy an MXR Carbon Copy!

They have also said 40 watts is much better, even in a small room. All I want is something to back that up, because it isn't clear on the face of it why that is the case.

I don't mind listening to people but I reserve the right to question. People don't have to answer, but you seem to want me to accept "The Wisdom" presented to me without questioning it. No, sorry. My money is too important for that.

Secondly please point out where my quotes are out of context. I provided a link to the quote I made above so the context could be revealed in all its glory for you. Click it, it might help you.

I appreciate everyone's answer. I know nobody is rewarded for answering the questions I ask, but you seem to want me to take the answer regardless of whether or not it actually answers my question, or is correct. I don't think anyone wants that do they?

Most peopel have been kind enough to answer my questions.

I think the point is though, if either the Tweaker 15 or 40 takes so much explaining to make me understand why its right, then I have to question whether it is indeed "right".

There are two points which are at the heart of all this...

The Tweaker 15 is right for you Deano, because.... many comments about the effects loop and why someone's gear works okay, and why I don't need to dig too much.

The Tweaker 40 is right because... one comment about the size of the transformers which I haven't been able to verify elsewhere.

These sorts of questions ought to be easy to bat away as they are engineering, not subjective like tone!

I would love to go out and try a Tweaker (in fact I'm going to be near Epsom next week and will try one at GuitarGuitar) and have it be the exact amp I need, but I can't do that because of the questions I have about them.

I don't see this as an argument, I see it as a discussion and a learning event! I am learning about engineering points that affect my choice, and I need to keep asking questions so I "get it".
#46
Quote by fly135
Not as simple as that. You have to look at specs. The G3 is capable of +5dbm into 10K ohms. Also the device needs to be able to attenuate the input of have enough headroom to accept the higher level input signal. While the G3 specs don't reveal this information in my tests it is capable. Also it has an active selection on the input that suggests it can handle higher level signals.

Other instrument level devices may not meet the requirements to go in a line level loop. Lastly sending +4db into a -20db input is not guaranteed to work at all. It is possible that it will overdrive the input into distorting. Or it is possible that it has an input gain control that allows you to attenuate the signal with no problems.


Thanks for that. It seems to be a bit of a lottery whether something will work or not in a line level loop like the Tweaker 15's, unless it is specifically designed to work at line levels such as rack gear.

That being the case, and your confirmation that Line Level into instrument level isn't guaranteed to work means again that the Tweaker 15 is off my list.

I'll leave the 40 on until I've tested it myself next weekend, but I'm not yet convinced that it isn't too big for my needs and that I wouldn't be better spending my money elsewhere.

What are the basic scientific and engineering principles that dictate that the cleans from a 40 watt amp will be noticably better than an 18 or 20 watt amp? That is what will drive the choice of the Tweaker 40 over something else for me at least.

That isn't a question directed at you specifically fly! It's an open one really.

Perhaps what is frustrating to people here is there I seem to be selecting by eyes rather than ears. Yes. That's right. Guilty. I don't have the time or inclination to listen to every amp in my price range, tramping around the country for weeks on end to get "The Perfect Amp".

That's not me. I want a short list of highly-probable contenders (preferably two, no more than three) and will try those out and the one that impresses me the most will be the one I buy. It might not be "The Perfect Amp", but I'm just not that in love with tone and gear. I'll make it work if the tone is reasonable, but I don't want to be frustrated by hardware!
Last edited by deano_l at Oct 23, 2013,
#47
Quote by deano_l
If there is a good, solid reason for more watts when I only really want a nice clean tone, then I'll add the Tweaker 40 to my list, along with the Tubemeister 36 and Laney VC30 and so on and so forth. The list grows exponentially at that size.

The good solid reason is that those amps just sound better, and there is no sensible reason to insist on an amp that doesn't sound as good just because you think you only need some arbitrary amount of power. The volume difference between 15, 18, 20, and 30 watts is tiny; you might as well just get the amp that sounds the best. Your focus on wattage is counterproductive. The speaker you use will dictate your volume more than the difference between a 20 and a 40 watt amp. Doubling the wattage from 20 to 40 gets you an extra 3 decibels; that's a doubling of volume. Perceptibly, that's actually quite small. An inefficient speaker like a Greenback might get you 96dB efficiency, while an efficient one would be closer to 103. That's 7dB, which is like the difference between a 20 watt and a 70 watt amp. So your speaker matters more than this trifling 20 watt difference.

Even if you ignore all of that, though, the PRS just doesn't have an awesome clean tone among small amps.

Here is a quick list of amps under 30 watts that I would get for clean tones before I even sneezed at the PRS:
-Vox AC15
-Vox AC30
-Fender Deluxe Reverb
-Fender Super-Sonic
-Fender Blues Junior
-Fender Pro Junior
-Egnater Rebel 20, 30
-Line 6 DT25
-Orange AD30HTC
-Bugera V22
-Crate V18
-About a trillion boutique and smaller companies that I can't begin to list.

Here's the thing, though. You need to stop obsessing over the wattage. It doesn't matter either way. If the PRS had a better clean tone I'd tell you to get that, but it doesn't. If the PRS were 60 watts and had a better clean tone, I'd still tell you to get it. If you can get a 40 watt amp for about the same price as a 20 watt amp, and the 40 has better features and sounds better, what are you doing insisting on getting the 20 watt? That's where the frustration of a lot of people trying to help you lies. We're trying to tell you what sounds good; you keep insisting that something you've never heard is better because it has some arbitrary spec that doesn't matter and a bunch of people who have already bought it said it was great.

Ironically, this is how you get those kinds of reviews. If you get the PRS and love it, you'll probably write one of those reviews, and then someone else in your place will read it and think it's the best amp for them, too. Do you see how this propagation of incomplete information is harmful? It doesn't mean you've made a bad decision, but it means that you think you are making a good decision because you don't have enough information to determine otherwise, and you are only choosing to accept information that reinforces the decision.

I do want to reiterate that - I'm not trying to be rude or tell you what to buy, or that you are making a bad decision. I just have an issue with your process of making that decision, and want to try to help you understand why you should or should not make the decisions you are making. As you say, you're going to have the amp for a long time and it would be a shame to get one that isn't great.
#48
Quote by Roc8995
Here is a quick list of amps under 30 watts that I would get for clean tones before I even sneezed at the PRS:
-Vox AC15
-Vox AC30
-Fender Deluxe Reverb
-Fender Super-Sonic
-Fender Blues Junior
-Fender Pro Junior
-Egnater Rebel 20, 30
-Line 6 DT25
-Orange AD30HTC
-Bugera V22
-Crate V18
-About a trillion boutique and smaller companies that I can't begin to list.

Here's the thing, though. You need to stop obsessing over the wattage. It doesn't matter either way. If the PRS had a better clean tone I'd tell you to get that, but it doesn't. If the PRS were 60 watts and had a better clean tone, I'd still tell you to get it. If you can get a 40 watt amp for about the same price as a 20 watt amp, and the 40 has better features and sounds better, what are you doing insisting on getting the 20 watt? That's where the frustration of a lot of people trying to help you lies. We're trying to tell you what sounds good; you keep insisting that something you've never heard is better because it has some arbitrary spec that doesn't matter and a bunch of people who have already bought it said it was great.


No. I don't. That is something I have never done. If I have I apologise, but I would like to see a quote of mine where I have said something is better. I have asked questions if someone has claimed something will work, but I have never said someone is wrong or x is better than y based on specs.

Your list is good. Some hybrids though which I'm moving away from. Some don't have loops which is a dealbreaker. Some are too expensive in the UK. The rest, I have in my spreadsheet already.

I'm not fixated on power. But manufacturers do seem to link power to price and if I can save money by getting a good 20 watt over a good 40 watt then I will because I can spend that elsewhere.

And surely the whoe point of sites like this one is that if I buy a PRS and love it, then I ought to write a review saying so and post it on a site like this? That part of your argument seems odd to me. I don't quite get your point there.
Last edited by deano_l at Oct 23, 2013,
#49
There's one hybrid on that list, the D25. The rest are not, I guess you could make an argument for the Crate if you were really strict about your definitions.

You said the Tweaker was out based on too much wattage (not a reasonable factor) and the effects loop (not correct). You didn't say better but you're throwing amps out of consideration based on what I think are very poor rationales.

Power is linked to price but also quality. The difference between the Tweaker 40 and 15 is more than an effects loop and 25 watts of headroom. Quality also exists independently of "saving money" so buying a 20 watt amp doesn't save you any money if the amp isn't as good. Well, it does, but I guess it's your choice if you want to save money or have a better amp. I'm trying to help you find the best amp for you in your price range. If you want to find an OK amp that's cheaper that's a different conversation.

The point of my argument is that you seem to be making choices based entirely on specs and reviews, both of which can be extremely misleading (and IMO are being misleading in this case). It's just frustrating to have both of these amps available to me, right next to each other, but you're instead making decisions based on misreading spec sheets and making leaps of logic regarding wattage and quality.
#52
Quote by Roc8995
There's one hybrid on that list, the D25. The rest are not, I guess you could make an argument for the Crate if you were really strict about your definitions.

You said the Tweaker was out based on too much wattage (not a reasonable factor) and the effects loop (not correct). You didn't say better but you're throwing amps out of consideration based on what I think are very poor rationales.

Power is linked to price but also quality. The difference between the Tweaker 40 and 15 is more than an effects loop and 25 watts of headroom. Quality also exists independently of "saving money" so buying a 20 watt amp doesn't save you any money if the amp isn't as good. Well, it does, but I guess it's your choice if you want to save money or have a better amp. I'm trying to help you find the best amp for you in your price range. If you want to find an OK amp that's cheaper that's a different conversation.

The point of my argument is that you seem to be making choices based entirely on specs and reviews, both of which can be extremely misleading (and IMO are being misleading in this case). It's just frustrating to have both of these amps available to me, right next to each other, but you're instead making decisions based on misreading spec sheets and making leaps of logic regarding wattage and quality.


Okay...

The strictness of my definitions is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Crate's are not available in the UK.

What part of my understanding of the the Tweaker 15's effect loop is not correct?

I said the Tweaker 40 was still on my list and would be until I tested it next weekend. I QUESTIONED whether I really needed so much power in a 10x10 room and whether less power would be sufficient for my needs.

Do I need a good 20 watt amp or do I need a good 40 watt amp. You seem to be linking the power to quality, not me.

Please tell me the other quality factors that differentate the Tweaker 15 and 40 that you alude to. I don't know what they are.

The specs and reviews are being used to draw up a shortlist. Would you have me test everything out there in my range instead?

My list has been drawn up by reading around. I make no secret of that. I have a number of sources from back issues of guitar magazines and the internet. At the moment my shortlist is being culled based on features on the amps and reviews from my sources. I don't know any other way of doing that short of trying every amp in the price range. What are your suggestions for an alternative method, or is it to test out every amp in the price range? Or just your suggestions in the price range?
Last edited by deano_l at Oct 23, 2013,
#54
Quote by deano_l
They have also said 40 watts is much better, even in a small room. All I want is something to back that up, because it isn't clear on the face of it why that is the case.

It is a better amp. They didn't just staple an extra 25 watts onto a 15. There are a bunch of different parts and it just. Sounds. Better. I don't know how to clarify any better than that. I'm not going to take my amp apart and point to all the parts and tell you what they do. At some point you have to either trust people who are trying to help, or you have to stop wasting their time by asking questions you don't seem to understand yourself.
I don't mind listening to people but I reserve the right to question. People don't have to answer, but you seem to want me to accept "The Wisdom" presented to me without questioning it. No, sorry. My money is too important for that.

See, reading spec sheets and reviews and then making decisions based solely on those seems to us like you are accepting "the wisdom" except in this case you are accepting the wisdom of the manufacturer and people who already know they like the amp. In our case we do not care what you get, and are trying to tell you based on personal experience which might work for you better. You have the right to question, but you do not have the right to demand that people spell out every single thing they know that you do not.
I appreciate everyone's answer. I know nobody is rewarded for answering the questions I ask, but you seem to want me to take the answer regardless of whether or not it actually answers my question, or is correct.

If we didn't think we were answering your questions, or thought our answers were incorrect, we would not be trying to help you. Honestly, you are being super rude here asking people who are trying to help you why they aren't helping you. If you genuinely think that we are trying to be difficult or dense here, believe me, the feeling is mutual.

You are saying, "I read this review and I think I want this amp."
We are saying, "I think this other one probably fits you better, I have tried both."
Your response, as I can see it, has then been "Explain to me why your opinion is right and all these reviews are wrong."
The problem with that is that if you can explain why an opinion is objectively true, it is no longer an opinion.
I think the point is though, if either the Tweaker 15 or 40 takes so much explaining to make me understand why its right, then I have to question whether it is indeed "right".

Do not confuse your inability to understand with our ability to explain. Ask better questions, you'll get better answers.

There are two points which are at the heart of all this...

The Tweaker 15 is right for you Deano, because.... many comments about the effects loop and why someone's gear works okay, and why I don't need to dig too much.

The Tweaker 40 is right because... one comment about the size of the transformers which I haven't been able to verify elsewhere.

The 40 sounds better. It just does. It sounds better because it's a different amp, and its clean sound is nice and warm and fluffy like a cloud because it has a bigger power section which requires a bigger transformer. If you want me to "verify" that a bigger amp has a bigger transformer I can go get a ruler. If you want me to "verify" that a bigger power section and a bigger transformer sound different I can give you a list of books you can go read, or I can mail you two transformers and an amp and you can hear for yourself.
At some point, it gets silly and repetitive. "Why is this amp a good choice?" "It sounds better." "Why?" "It's built with different parts." "Why?"
Do you see how this is getting on peoples' nerves? You are asking "why" in a way that shows that you wouldn't understand why if we told you. If you have to ask why a bigger amp sounds different, you won't understand what a different transformer does either, and then we're stuck in this stupid loop where you ask more and more questions that get farther and farther away from useful information. If you want to learn about what makes amps sound different you need to start a new thread. It is totally impractical to ask
These sorts of questions ought to be easy to bat away as they are engineering, not subjective like tone!

I tried, but if you demand that I back up every single point with some sort of cross-reference then I cannot help you. My source for knowing that big transformers and power sections often sound better, bigger, cleaner is that I build and repair amps and know a lot about them. My source for thinking that the Tweaker 40 is better than the 15 is better than the PRS is that I have literally sat down in a room with them and played all three for an hour. I cannot link you to sources for that. Do you see why it's so obnoxious to demand that we explain ourselves to you, when you do not appear to accept anything but what you've already decided on? You started this thread by shitting on Egnater for maybe being a modeling amp, then maybe it didn't have the right loop, then maybe it was too big, then you just didn't like it because we can't explain to you the answer to a question you did not actually ask.


Tell you what. This is getting really frustrating for everyone, and I want to help but the way you are asking questions is not going well. Can we try something?
I will answer, as patiently as I can, every question you ask as long as you just post the questions. Let's do away with these long paragraphs about how you read this and you know that. Make a list of questions, numbered, and I'll reply with point-by-point answers as long as I can stand it. I suspect that others will chime in as well but I can't promise anything.
#55
It's hard to have too much power because the volume knob tames that. It's easy to have too little power. Small wattage amps can be very loud but not be powerful enough to deliver strong bass. People who want small wattage amps believe that they need them to get power amp distortion. Some may be right and others just think they need it because they keep hearing it. I am happy to get my distortion from a preamp or pedal.

IMO a 15 watt amp is a good minimum. More than that is not an issue. I play at home an WRT power I can take it or leave. IOW too much is not a consideration.
#56
Quote by deano_l
What part of my understanding of the the Tweaker 15's effect loop is not correct?

Didn't say it wasn't. Said you needed to get the 40 which has the flexible loop.

Do I need a good 20 watt amp or do I need a good 40 watt amp. You seem to be linking the power to quality, not me.

You need a good amp. The 20 watt amp you were looking at is not a good amp compared to others in its range, and the 15 does not meet your needs. Hence the 40. Not because it's a 40 but because it is a good amp that meets all your needs.

Please tell me the other quality factors that differentate the Tweaker 15 and 40 that you alude to. I don't know what they are.

The 40 is different in that it has:
Fixed bias
Different loop
Two channels
Footswitch
And most importantly, a completely different power section. This is like having a different engine in your car; even if you are going the same speed, it is going to make a huge difference to the way the amp responds, sounds, and feels.

You said specifically that you wanted a good clean tone and a quality loop. The 40 has a good loop that will work with any effects unit, and the clean tone is better than the 15 due to the bigger power section. That is why I suggested it over the 15.
The specs and reviews are being used to draw up a shortlist. Would you have me test everything out there in my range instead?

No, but I have tested everything in your range and I'm trying to tell you that face-to-face, there's a big difference. Obviously I'd prefer that you test everything but if you are asking for help, I am offering the best I can by telling you what I have experienced personally.

My list has been drawn up by reading around. I make no secret of that. I have a number of sources from back issues of guitar magazines and the internet. At the moment my shortlist is being culled based on features on the amps and reviews from my sources. I don't know any other way of doing that short of trying every amp in the price range. What are your suggestions for an alternative method, or is it to test out every amp in the price range? Or just your suggestions in the price range?

I'd suggest that you stop whining and second-guessing us while unquestionably referencing paid magazine reviews and biased online testimonials. If you don't want to hear any more suggestions, I can close this thread. If you want to hear what people have to say, ask better questions instead of treating reviews as facts and our responses as fantasy.
#57
Quote by Roc8995
Do not confuse your inability to understand with our ability to explain. Ask better questions, you'll get better answers.


Such as…

Quote by Roc8995
There are a bunch of different parts and it just. Sounds. Better. I don't know how to clarify any better than that.


Or

Quote by Roc8995
The 40 sounds better. It just does. It sounds better because it's a different amp, and its clean sound is nice and warm and fluffy like a cloud because it has a bigger power section which requires a bigger transformer.



Quote by Roc8995
If you want me to "verify" that a bigger power section and a bigger transformer sound different I can give you a list of books you can go read


That would be ideal. Yes please.

Quote by Roc8995
At some point, it gets silly and repetitive. "Why is this amp a good choice?" "It sounds better." "Why?" "It's built with different parts." "Why?"


I don’t think that is a very accurate summation of the thread. A better one would be “the loop works for me even though it shouldn’t”… “Why does it, because I want it to work with my gear”… “don’t ask questions like that, it’s rude”.

Quote by Roc8995
Do you see how this is getting on peoples' nerves? You are asking "why" in a way that shows that you wouldn't understand why if we told you. If you have to ask why a bigger amp sounds different, you won't understand what a different transformer does either, and then we're stuck in this stupid loop where you ask more and more questions that get farther and farther away from useful information. If you want to learn about what makes amps sound different you need to start a new thread. It is totally impractical to ask


Try me. You haven’t done that yet. You have painted a nice picture of fluffy clouds, but you haven’t told me what a bigger transformer does to clean tones. I may not have an electronics degree but my A level in Physics might just suffice. I didn’t get one in English so I should leave the literature out though.

I don’t want to know how amps work or what all the bits are. I just want to know why you told me that a 40 watt Tweaker would sound better in my little room. That’s all. If you can’t then fine. Let’s move on.

Quote by Roc8995
I tried, but if you demand that I back up every single point with some sort of cross-reference then I cannot help you. My source for knowing that big transformers and power sections often sound better, bigger, cleaner is that I build and repair amps and know a lot about them.


But you can’t actually tell me how they work. Okay, can I ask... have you read the books your are going to list to me as promised above?

Quote by Roc8995
Do you see why it's so obnoxious to demand that we explain ourselves to you, when you do not appear to accept anything but what you've already decided on? You started this thread by shitting on Egnater for maybe being a modeling amp, then maybe it didn't have the right loop, then maybe it was too big, then you just didn't like it because we can't explain to you the answer to a question you did not actually ask.


And yet, once more just for you, I AM GOING TO TRY OUT A TWEAKER 40 NEXT WEEKEND AT GUITARGUITAR IN EPSOM. A round trip of about 400 miles. I asked a legitimate question about it, and you took the hump for some reason. I don’t want to dislike the Tweeker, but it is suffering now because you have one!

Quote by Roc8995
I'd suggest that you stop whining and second-guessing us while unquestionably referencing paid magazine reviews and biased online testimonials. If you don't want to hear any more suggestions, I can close this thread. If you want to hear what people have to say, ask better questions instead of treating reviews as facts and our responses as fantasy.


Oh please. The patronising I can cope with, but the conspiracy theories are just silly. Are you honestly saying that the only true source of information that can be relied upon are the forums on The Ultimate Guitar web site. Because I beg to differ.

I don’t want to post a list of questions. I don’t have a list. I did have but I’ve resolved one of them… the line level loop in the Tweaker 15 is not guaranteed to work with instrument level pedals. That’s done and out of the way.

The only outstanding question is the one above. The one that’s been there all the time. No list, just….

Why will a 40 watt amplifier sound better in my little room than a less powerfull amplifier.


What is the thinking behind your advice? That’s all. Nothing more. Just grounded in reality not referencing fluffy clouds.

Jesus, some people can find an argument in anything if they look hard enough!
#58
Can we please, PLEASE, just close this thread already?

TS is so convinced of his own inerrancy that no amount of reason will change his mind, and as the other thread linked to showed, this is not a new development.

FFS, I KNOW confrontational! I'm good at it...but I'm a mere novice compared to this guy...

Let's just move on, and perhaps the TS can as well, maybe to those other forums he holds in such high esteem.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#59
Quote by deano_l
Such as…

If we could ask and answer questions we wouldn't need you here.
Or
Sorry, I could clarify it but I feel like it would be wasting my time. I should have made a better distinction between "can" and "want to." I can sing Queen in a high falsetto but functionally I'd rather not. So I say I don't sing. Similar idea.
That would be ideal. Yes please.

Merlin Blencowe has a website with a lot of information, plus he has put out a few books on individual preamp and power amp design.
The tech info pages on Aiken Amps website
Aspen Pittman's book called The Tube Amp Book
Dave Hunter has a book called the Guitar Amplifier Handbook
Richard Kuehnel has some new ones out that look good but I haven't read yet.

I don’t think that is a very accurate summation of the thread. A better one would be “the loop works for me even though it shouldn’t”… “Why does it, because I want it to work with my gear”… “don’t ask questions like that, it’s rude”.

I disagree. My answer all along was to get the 40, in part because the loop is more flexible. Notice too that you did get an answer to your question about why the loop works the way it does.


Try me. You haven’t done that yet. You have painted a nice picture of fluffy clouds, but you haven’t told me what a bigger transformer does to clean tones. I may not have an electronics degree but my A level in Physics might just suffice. I didn’t get one in English so I should leave the literature out though.

And I'm not going to. This is what I'm talking about: we can tell you the basics but we cannot teach you a book's worth of understanding in one thread, especially when there are actual books out there.

Which brings me to my next point:

I don’t want to know how amps work or what all the bits are. I just want to know why you told me that a 40 watt Tweaker would sound better in my little room. That’s all. If you can’t then fine. Let’s move on.

This is the problem. You want the answer but you cannot understand the answer because you have no interest in learning why things happen. I told you right away why the 40 sounds better clean, even at low volumes: it has a bigger power section, and a bigger output transformer. You cannot accept that as an answer because you do not understand it. I am not willing to explain it to you any further because you asked for the answer and now you are saying I did not give you the answer, when instead you just do not understand it.

But you can’t actually tell me how they work. Okay, can I ask... have you read the books your are going to list to me as promised above?

You just said you have no interest in knowing how it works, how would you know if I could tell you how they work or not? Would you know a transformer if it came up and bit you?
I have read the Merlin and Hunter books, the Pittman book, and the Aiken site. I have the RCA manual which is the "tube bible" but TBH I have not read it. It is more of a reference than a read and it's not very accessible, and that's why I didn't suggest it above.


And yet, once more just for you, I AM GOING TO TRY OUT A TWEAKER 40 NEXT WEEKEND AT GUITARGUITAR IN EPSOM. A round trip of about 400 miles. I asked a legitimate question about it, and you took the hump for some reason. I don’t want to dislike the Tweeker, but it is suffering now because you have one!

That is your loss. I "have" a tweaker 88 but I got it at a good price this weekend with the intention of selling it. So I technically own a Tweaker but if you asked me this question last week the answer would have been the same. Me owning a tweaker has no bearing on what you should buy, and I only kinda-sorta own a tweaker in the first place.

Oh please. The patronising I can cope with, but the conspiracy theories are just silly. Are you honestly saying that the only true source of information that can be relied upon are the forums on The Ultimate Guitar web site. Because I beg to differ.

No, I'm saying that reviews are often biased. So far you've implied that you believe the reviews but not what we have to say. I don't think that's a good way to operate. You just seem to be complaining an awful lot about the answers you get here, and then turning around and saying those reviews are super useful and trustworthy. It seems odd.

And it is not a conspiracy theory. Reviews of gear in magazines are functionally paid, either directly or through ads and providing the product for review. Perhaps "paid" is a bit of an expedient term but there is an understanding between the magazine and the company, and I have yet to see such a review that was negative or totally honest, especially with large companies like we're talking about.

I don’t want to post a list of questions. I don’t have a list. I did have but I’ve resolved one of them… the line level loop in the Tweaker 15 is not guaranteed to work with instrument level pedals. That’s done and out of the way.

Ok.

The only outstanding question is the one above. The one that’s been there all the time. No list, just….

Why will a 40 watt amplifier sound better in my little room than a less powerfull amplifier.

I never said that. I said the Tweaker 40 will sound better than the Tweaker 15. Not because it's 40 watts. Put that out of your mind. If you put them at the same volume, the 40 will sound bigger and fuller, because it has a bigger power supply. Again I'll return to the car analogy: even if you do not need to go 200 MPH, having a bigger engine in your car lets you accelerate faster, and it changes how the car feels and performs even at the same speed as a car with a smaller engine. This is especially true in the bass notes, where the extra power gives a tighter, bigger feel. If you have ever tried a Fender Twin you'll understand - the preamp isn't hugely different from a Deluxe, but the twin has a bigger, warmer, rounder tone because the power section is larger.
The 40 also has 6L6 power tubes, which are generally a 'fatter' sounding tube than the 6v6. Not by much but some people care.
Anyway, as I said several times before, it is not important that you buy a bigger amp. Actually a Deluxe reverb would probably be great for you, and it's 22 watts. My point is, between two amps that are functionally very similar otherwise, the one with the bigger power section will often sound better. So my answer is very specific to the Tweaker 15 and 40; I never said nor implied that you needed more than 15 watts. It's just that the bigger amp in this situation happens to be noticeably improved.
So, it's not that "a" 40 watt amp will sound better in your little room, it's that "This" 40 watt amp will sound better than "That" 15 watt amp, in the same way that if you got a Marshall MG at 15 watts and a Major at 200, the 200 watt amp would sound better than the 15 watt amp. There's a quality difference aside from the volume. The volume is largely irrelevant, these amps all have good volume control.
What is the thinking behind your advice? That’s all. Nothing more. Just grounded in reality not referencing fluffy clouds.

The thinking behind my advice is that I have owned, used, repaired, a lot of amps and personally find that amps with big iron sound bigger, fuller, and cleaner, and I've played all these amps. Given your budget and focus on clean tones, I figured that the Tweaker series was good. Given that the 40 sounds a bit nicer (for reasons I've explained) and has a better loop, I suggested that one over the 15.


If by grounded in reality you mean objective, I cannot give you an objective answer to a subjective question.
Jesus, some people can find an argument in anything if they look hard enough!

It's not that hard to find arguments in your threads.
#60
Quote by Arby911
TS is so convinced of his own inerrancy that no amount of reason will change his mind, and as the other thread linked to showed, this is not a new development.


Can you provide a quote from this thread to show that please? Where I have claimed I'm right regardless?

Please? Just the one?
#61
Quote by Roc8995
Sorry, I could clarify it but I feel like it would be wasting my time. I should have made a better distinction between "can" and "want to."


Sorry. I stopped reading your post after this quote.

Anyone else know why a bigger transformer and power section should improve clean tones?

Even though I'm supposed to be inerrant I'm buggered if I know!
#63
Quote by deano_l
Anyone else know why a bigger transformer and power section should improve clean tones?


Yes, but I'm not in the business of writing textbooks for a guitar forum. You can either take people at their word, or you can visit your local library and pick up every textbook you can find on amp design and electrical engineering and give yourself a proper education on the matter.
Feel free to call me Kyle.

Quote by ibz_bucket
Just so you know, I read everything you type in a Mike Rowe from Dirty Jobs voice.

Quote by tubetime86
I mean in Kyle's case, it is in the best interest of mankind that he impregnate anything that looks at him funny...
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