sundar334
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#1
Okay, i am talking about guys like Uli Roth, Michael Schenker, Iommi, Tipton, gary moore and Blackmore. What is it that musically sets them apart from other guitarists of modern rock. I mean they sound like they pour their soul into every piece of music that they compose. Whereas, no matter how good of a technique or better gear modern rockers might have they sound like shit! i mean where did things go wrong why is it so hard to find people these days who make music that is sorta life changing.
Zaphod_Beeblebr
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#2


Also: there's nothing that sets the older players apart but your perception of them. Paul Gilbert, Guthrie Govan, John Petrucci, Misha Mansoor, Rick Graham... these guys are all thoroughly modern players and they've all changed my life.
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6...6...6...
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#3
It's all about musicality. They play with more dynamics, nice vibrato and play more freely. They probably never overthink stuff too much. It's the little things and the details that does it. Listen to for example George Lynch who is a very dynamic player and adds lot of little fills that are just enough to catch your attention without stealing attention from the other instruments. Also they doesn't focus too much on showing off, the focus seems to be more on supporting the song. At least thats what it sounds like to me. The also usually have a unique "voice", meaning they does'nt all sound the same.
6...6...6...
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#4

Also: there's nothing that sets the older players apart but your perception of them. Paul Gilbert, Guthrie Govan, John Petrucci, Misha Mansoor, Rick Graham... these guys are all thoroughly modern players and they've all changed my life.


Most of these guys are also very musical and got unique voices just like the greats from the seventies and early eighties. I think the OP is reffering more to players that sounds like almost everyone else of the more modern guys.
Zaphod_Beeblebr
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#5
Quote by 6...6...6...
Most of these guys are also very musical and got unique voices just like the greats from the seventies and early eighties. I think the OP is reffering more to players that sounds like almost everyone else of the more modern guys.


Such as?

Not that it matters very much, if that's the case then TS is talking about boring guitarists, not modern ones. It's convenient that no one mentions all the hundreds of guitarists who were copping Hendrix licks in the 70s or the myriad people who were ripping off Uli Jon Roth and Malmsteen in the 80s, or everyone who was blatantly copying Nirvana through the 90s, even now all the people who do nothing but take the same jangly shit that Arctic Monkeys have been peddling for a decade.

There are always derivative guitarists, it's just that no one knows who the ones from the 60s and 70s were any more because they've faded in to obscurity so completely.
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Eladamri
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#6
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Such as?

Not that it matters very much, if that's the case then TS is talking about boring guitarists, not modern ones. It's convenient that no one mentions all the hundreds of guitarists who were copping Hendrix licks in the 70s or the myriad people who were ripping off Uli Jon Roth and Malmsteen in the 80s, or everyone who was blatantly copying Nirvana through the 90s, even now all the people who do nothing but take the same jangly shit that Arctic Monkeys have been peddling for a decade.

There are always derivative guitarists, it's just that no one knows who the ones from the 60s and 70s were any more because they've faded in to obscurity so completely.


This. So very much this. I want a like button!
sundar334
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#7
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr


Also: there's nothing that sets the older players apart but your perception of them. Paul Gilbert, Guthrie Govan, John Petrucci, Misha Mansoor, Rick Graham... these guys are all thoroughly modern players and they've all changed my life.
well i have listened to guys like joe satriani, paul gilbert and many others but no matter how much i listen to them i jus feel like they alway play something which just shows off how good they are at playing but never anything that conveys real emotion or expresses something on guitar. Guys like blackmore, iommi and albert king etc they always try to play something which speaks to the listeners. Instead of trying to be technically the best they just concentrate on creating music that is beautiful and magical. Technique wise guitarists you mention might be better no doubt but its just the sheer impact they had on music during their time was immense. I mean 20-30 years from now people will still talk about iommi's riffs and blackmore's wizardry on guitar but i doubt if the music created by the people you mentioned will stand the test of time. More over music by the guys according to me jus feels too lifeless. To each their own i guess.
6...6...6...
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#8
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Such as?

Not that it matters very much, if that's the case then TS is talking about boring guitarists, not modern ones. It's convenient that no one mentions all the hundreds of guitarists who were copping Hendrix licks in the 70s or the myriad people who were ripping off Uli Jon Roth and Malmsteen in the 80s, or everyone who was blatantly copying Nirvana through the 90s, even now all the people who do nothing but take the same jangly shit that Arctic Monkeys have been peddling for a decade.

There are always derivative guitarists, it's just that no one knows who the ones from the 60s and 70s were any more because they've faded in to obscurity so completely.


You've definitely got a point. I'm not saying that the guys from way back are the best and all modern guys are shit. There are modern guitarist that I like. Alexi Laiho is actually pretty high on my list. However, alot of modern metal guys forget about dynamics and sorta rely on seemingly conplicated sweep picking arpeggios. I don't want to mention any names because this is my opinion and others may or may not agree but if you need a name then I would say guys like Herman Li is pretty boring. So is Luca Turilli of Rhapsody. As much as I like Rhapsody an Turilli's composing style, his guitar playnig is just extreme shred and get pretty boring pretty quick. Also many extreme metal guitarist that rely on "brutal" riffs doesn't seem as musical to me. They seem to lack dynamics and that stuff which to me at least are what makes the guitar come to life and sound so good. You are right that there has been guitarist from way back that has been pretty boring as well, but as you say they have faded to obscurity.
Last edited by 6...6...6... at Oct 21, 2013,
6...6...6...
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#9
Quote by sundar334
well i have listened to guys like joe satriani, paul gilbert and many others but no matter how much i listen to them i jus feel like they alway play something which just shows off how good they are at playing but never anything that conveys real emotion or expresses something on guitar. Guys like blackmore, iommi and albert king etc they always try to play something which speaks to the listeners. Instead of trying to be technically the best they just concentrate on creating music that is beautiful and magical. Technique wise guitarists you mention might be better no doubt but its just the sheer impact they had on music during their time was immense. I mean 20-30 years from now people will still talk about iommi's riffs and blackmore's wizardry on guitar but i doubt if the music created by the people you mentioned will stand the test of time. More over music by the guys according to me jus feels too lifeless. To each their own i guess.

Listen to Paul Gilberts latest album. He's no longer just showing off his technique. It sowcases how versatile and musical he can be. Also, I kinda like Steve Vai. I think he makes the guitar come alive but his sometimes over the top style is not for everyone.
DaFjory
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#10
Gilbert and Govan's "soulful" playing bores me to tears. Then, they make others jizz their pants. Someday it'll be a thought crime just to think any differently to others. You won't be called a racist - you'll be called a guitarist.

Now excuse me while I go and mashturbayte to all of Michael Angelo Batio's CDs.
sundar334
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#11
Quote by DaFjory
Gilbert and Govan's "soulful" playing bores me to tears. Then, they make others jizz their pants. Someday it'll be a thought crime just to think any differently to others. You won't be called a racist - you'll be called a guitarist.

Now excuse me while I go and mashturbayte to all of Michael Angelo Batio's CDs.

Lol, so like Michael Batio, are you good at using both of your hands equally well?
Zaphod_Beeblebr
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#12
Quote by sundar334
well i have listened to guys like joe satriani, paul gilbert and many others but no matter how much i listen to them i jus feel like they alway play something which just shows off how good they are at playing but never anything that conveys real emotion or expresses something on guitar. Guys like blackmore, iommi and albert king etc they always try to play something which speaks to the listeners. Instead of trying to be technically the best they just concentrate on creating music that is beautiful and magical. Technique wise guitarists you mention might be better no doubt but its just the sheer impact they had on music during their time was immense. I mean 20-30 years from now people will still talk about iommi's riffs and blackmore's wizardry on guitar but i doubt if the music created by the people you mentioned will stand the test of time. More over music by the guys according to me jus feels too lifeless. To each their own i guess.


See that's the thing... you have no idea what will or will not be a classic or what will or will not stand the test of time. You're basing this all on what you like rather than just enjoying what you like, not listening to what you don't and leaving the rest up to history.

The taste makers at the time of Cream and such thought that the electric guitar was a noise box fit only for those who lack any form of musicality. People still don't understand Schoenberg.

Times change faster than people do.

Quote by DaFjory
Gilbert and Govan's "soulful" playing bores me to tears. Then, they make others jizz their pants. Someday it'll be a thought crime just to think any differently to others. You won't be called a racist - you'll be called a guitarist.

Now excuse me while I go and mashturbayte to all of Michael Angelo Batio's CDs.


Thought crime does not entail death. Thought crime is death.
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DaFjory
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#13
Quote by sundar334
Lol, so like Michael Batio, are you good at using both of your hands equally well?


Cross-dominant, actually. I'm a lefty playing a righty guitar, but I instinctively go into a southpaw stance if needed, yet constantly swap my knives and forks around whilst eating.

Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Thought crime does not entail death. Thought crime is death.


Thought crime committed - someone's lost The Game.
wil
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#14
I wish everyone who pines for the past would club together, buy a flux capacitor and bugger off back to the ''good old days.''
Players like Gilbert strived for 'perfection' in his playing and I really don't see why people have such an issue with that---it seems only the realm of guitar playing where sloppy, out of tune type playing is even tolerated. Whatever people's opinions of them, Gilbert, Govan, Batio et al are keen to share their playing advice with the world (teaching/clinics are also, sadly, a monetary necessity for many top players), they don't surround themselves in some kind of 'mystique' or make out they were born with their abilities or come up with some kind of 'dark art' rubbish---these guys don't play up to the 'rock and roll' lifestyle, they are honest, down to earth musicians, concerned with putting on a decent show rather than shovel a load of coke up their beaks and 'play with feeling.'

If a player doesn't resonate with you, fine---I really like Iommi's playing but simply do not 'get' Blackmore, or Lynch for that matter---but this kind of 'era comparison' is ultimately pretty pointless.
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sundar334
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#15
Quote by wil
I wish everyone who pines for the past would club together, buy a flux capacitor and bugger off back to the ''good old days.''
Players like Gilbert strived for 'perfection' in his playing and I really don't see why people have such an issue with that---it seems only the realm of guitar playing where sloppy, out of tune type playing is even tolerated. Whatever people's opinions of them, Gilbert, Govan, Batio et al are keen to share their playing advice with the world (teaching/clinics are also, sadly, a monetary necessity for many top players), they don't surround themselves in some kind of 'mystique' or make out they were born with their abilities or come up with some kind of 'dark art' rubbish---these guys don't play up to the 'rock and roll' lifestyle, they are honest, down to earth musicians, concerned with putting on a decent show rather than shovel a load of coke up their beaks and 'play with feeling.'

If a player doesn't resonate with you, fine---I really like Iommi's playing but simply do not 'get' Blackmore, or Lynch for that matter---but this kind of 'era comparison' is ultimately pretty pointless.

Only by being influenced and inspired by past we can move ahead. Paul Gilbert cites players like iommi ,blackmore and Tipton as his influence. So in a way we cannot really chuck aside the past! no matter how much of an asshole people like Blackmore were in person, his playing ability and the music that flowed outta him really created a generation of people who would get inspired by his music and pick up guitar and try to make their own music. Moreover, in rock n roll attitude counts a lot along with playing good music too. WHo cares if Blackmore is grumpy, the solo on "stargazer" is face melting! I say gimme the flux capacitor i would never mind going back to the past.
Last edited by sundar334 at Oct 23, 2013,
wil
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#16
There's no doubt that the players you mention influenced a lot of players, but they, in turn, were all influenced by others--it's part of a musical evolution that didn't stop in 1973 or whenever.
I'll bet Paul Gilbert has influenced just as many people as Blackmore---he took what Di Meola and Yngwie did with alternate picking and refined it to crystalline, metronomic perfection---of course he's a 'technique driven' player but I really don't see the problem with that---it's not like he can't write songs, he's done heavy with Racer X, extremely commercial music with Mr Big and carved out a pretty extensive solo career with some solid songwriting---again, if you don't like it then fair enough but to just dismiss an entire genre because you say ''it sounds like shit'' is a pretty bold statement.

Some people feel kind of threatened by guitarists that play to a certain level. Check out the live footage of Gilbert, Kotzen and Lynch all playing together---Gilbert and Kotzen play Lynch off the stage in just about every department=tone, technique, phrasing, improvising etc etc...

I will concede there are plenty of 'bad' shredders (to use a rather generic term) out there but I do believe you're missing out-especially as you think the Stargazer solo is ''face melting''
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sundar334
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#17
Quote by wil
There's no doubt that the players you mention influenced a lot of players, but they, in turn, were all influenced by others--it's part of a musical evolution that didn't stop in 1973 or whenever.
I'll bet Paul Gilbert has influenced just as many people as Blackmore---he took what Di Meola and Yngwie did with alternate picking and refined it to crystalline, metronomic perfection---of course he's a 'technique driven' player but I really don't see the problem with that---it's not like he can't write songs, he's done heavy with Racer X, extremely commercial music with Mr Big and carved out a pretty extensive solo career with some solid songwriting---again, if you don't like it then fair enough but to just dismiss an entire genre because you say ''it sounds like shit'' is a pretty bold statement.

Some people feel kind of threatened by guitarists that play to a certain level. Check out the live footage of Gilbert, Kotzen and Lynch all playing together---Gilbert and Kotzen play Lynch off the stage in just about every department=tone, technique, phrasing, improvising etc etc...

I will concede there are plenty of 'bad' shredders (to use a rather generic term) out there but I do believe you're missing out-especially as you think the Stargazer solo is ''face melting''

Just like you find the solo on Stargazer mundane. I guess i find those guys you mentioned never really impress me with their music, and me calling most of the modern guitarists being shitty, that was from my point of view really. However, having given my opinion on most of the modern shredders, if a guy in the future could do what my favorite guitarists from the 60s and 70s did,i would surely love him. Just like i mentioned in my previous posts, fans of modern day guitarists always come up with the point of them being flawless technique wise and that is precisely where i guess you and i differ. I don't really care if a musician is technically proficient or not. All i listen for is music which has been composed with lot of feel and which i could connect with. It does not matter even if the guitarist has composed the entire song on a single string.
Zaphod_Beeblebr
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#18
Quote by sundar334
which i could connect with


And that's it, that's the real issue. You don't connect with modern players. Declaring them all to be shit because you essentially don't get it is stupid.
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sundar334
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#19
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
And that's it, that's the real issue. You don't connect with modern players. Declaring them all to be shit because you essentially don't get it is stupid.

Yes this is what i was trying to say in my first post. I could not connect with their music because yes as you said i did not get it and couldn't connect with it. Instead of resorting to euphemism i just expressed my view that what they play sounded shitty compared to what i like. I guess dislike would have been a better term than shit
Zaphod_Beeblebr
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#20
Quote by sundar334
Yes this is what i was trying to say in my first post. I could not connect with their music because yes as you said i did not get it and couldn't connect with it. Instead of resorting to euphemism i just expressed my view that what they play sounded shitty compared to what i like. I guess dislike would have been a better term than shit


'Don't understand' would have been better still.

The thing is you said "they sound like shit", as if somehow there was any way of quantifying that or qualifying it beyond "mah feels!". That is what we took exception to; frankly I couldn't give less of a shit about your opinion either way.

Also: there's no discussion to be had in this. There never was if you'd phrased your opinion correctly.
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sundar334
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#21
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
'Don't understand' would have been better still.

The thing is you said "they sound like shit", as if somehow there was any way of quantifying that or qualifying it beyond "mah feels!". That is what we took exception to; frankly I couldn't give less of a shit about your opinion either way.

Also: there's no discussion to be had in this. There never was if you'd phrased your opinion correctly.

Okay, so from now on i ask people to say things like they don't understand Twilight, John Grisham, One direction and Tom Hanks instead of using the term "Shit"
roushsn95
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#22
Quote by sundar334
i mean where did things go wrong why is it so hard to find people these days who make music that is sorta life changing.


What does that mean? What other music have you seriously listened to make that statement? Don't you get a little bored and look for something different to expand your musical mind?

I grew up on classic rock and top 40. I progressed to grunge and then all those shredder guys as mentioned. Then mostly progressive rock, fusion and classic rock again. Now, I listen to mostly jazz and indie.

Your tastes and views will change with time. What doesn't appeal to you now, might in a few years. What appeals to you now might not in a few years. Right now, you sound like that "old guy" ("Back in my day…..") but less mature.

Just keep an open mind bro.


(I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse).
Zaphod_Beeblebr
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#23
Quote by sundar334
Okay, so from now on i ask people to say things like they don't understand Twilight, John Grisham, One direction and Tom Hanks instead of using the term "Shit"


Frankly, yes. Or possibly a better term for some of those things would be "don't enjoy". There are plenty of reasons not to like those things but when it comes down to it they're all subjective anyway.

Taking the example of Twilight... I hate it, it's easily one of the worst books I've ever read in my mind and I can definitely justify that... but that doesn't mean other people are wrong to like it. There are also reasons to like it, they're just reasons I don't agree with. Same goes for all the others.

Twilight's a particularly weird example though since most people I've spoken to about it hate it on general principle rather than reading it first.
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Last edited by Zaphod_Beeblebr at Nov 5, 2013,
_jevo98
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#24
My Favorites:
Mick Mars
Joe Perry
Brad Whitford
Eddie Van Halen
Slash Hudson
C.C. DeVille
Warren DiMartini
Robbin Crosby
Izzy Stradilin

There is a lot more.
Nickpocalypse
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#25
I essentially just want to "+1" all of Zaphod's posts in this thread. I always enjoy reading posts by people who are more able to put my thoughts into writing than I am
I have a lot of respect for you Zaphod; and we seem to have pretty similar tastes. You might not remember but you creamed me in a "Calling all the Pit's Guitar Players" probably over a year ago, lol
I know a lot of people that share your opinion frequently, TS, including bandmates. I find this opinion is usually made to pander to a lot of people (it's a popular opinion), or possibly derived from intimidation by some of these modern, technical players and their ability. Not to discount the fact that I'm sure it's often the person's true opinion, like I'm sure it is for you, TS.
One example I take particular issue with is John Petrucci; I feel like people listen to a taste of Dream Theater and class JP as an emotionless shred robot. I used to think this exact same thing; and then I listened to Dream Theater's discography and was thoroughly surprised at how expressive a player JP is; a great example is his guitar solo on the recent Live at Luna Park DVD. For the first half he plays barely any notes at all!