Sabaton's Heroes. Amazing! Best metal release since Master Of Puppets.

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#41
Quote by eazy-c
Who gives a shit about what OP had to say? I thought we had moved on.

EDIT: ^ Are Metallica not pretty much everyone's gateway to Slayer though?

My gateway into Thrash was Megadeth honestly.
#42
Quote by eazy-c
EDIT: ^ Are Metallica not pretty much everyone's gateway to Slayer though?


Anyone who knows Metallica knows Slayer because they are contemporaries of one another from the same scene. In the '80's people would have equal knowledge of them and after the '80's Metallica may have more mainstream appeal, but the metal bands that laud them around as a major influence are, usually, terrible to mediocre. Slayer, on the other hand, have influenced all forms of extreme metal in a big way.

I, also, would like to make it clear that I'm talking from a purely metal perspective and about the MoP era.
Last edited by Morphogenesis26 at Jun 10, 2014,
#43
The point I was trying to make is Sabaton's Heroes is so good that I put up there with the generally accepted "best of the best" when it comes to Metal albums. Albums that will stand the test of time. Albums like Rust, Seasons in the abyss, MoP, Powerslave. I put Heroes on that same level.

To put it in sports terms. Say I think MoP was Michael Jordan in his prime, sure there have been many great players since him. Hes a once in a generation player. I was simply saying that Heroes is such a good, cohesive and powerful album, it could be a generational classic that could take years or even decades for another metal album to come out like it.

Heroes is one of those trasures that only come out every 10-20 years and will go down as a masterpeice. Thats my opinion of the album. I really havent got such a rush of a feeling from a metal album quite like Heroes. Especially while driving.
Last edited by Metalguy5784 at Jun 9, 2014,
#45
Quote by kirkisking
lol, classic metal forum


at least you can rely on its consistency

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#46
It might be worth pointing out that there are two different posters really advocating for MoP here. Dunno if people noticed that the OP is not the same person who called Manilla Road "inconsequential."

Quote by Metalguy5784
The point I was trying to make is Sabaton's Heroes is so good that I put up there with the generally accepted "best of the best" when it comes to Metal albums. Albums that will stand the test of time. Albums like Rust, Seasons in the abyss, MoP, Powerslave. I put Heroes on that same level.

To put it in sports terms. Say I think MoP was Michael Jordan in his prime, sure there have been many great players since him. Hes a once in a generation player. I was simply saying that Heroes is such a good, cohesive and powerful album, it could be a generational classic that could take years or even decades for another metal album to come out like it.

Heroes is one of those trasures that only come out every 10-20 years and will go down as a masterpeice. Thats my opinion of the album. I really havent got such a rush of a feeling from a metal album quite like Heroes. Especially while driving.

IMO there are better power metal albums that have come out in the past few years. Bury the Light by Pharaoh, The Burden of God by Nightmare, Another Night by High Spirits, Noble Beast's debut etc.
#47
For the record - going down as saying MoP is bad/boring/prole music with the exception of Orion. If the whole album had the quality And consistency of Orion it would certainly be one the greatest albums in metal.

Sadly, that is not the case.
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#48
^
It was one of my first metal records, honestly. But I very quickly grew out of it, once I discovered prog metal. Which was a year after I got into metal.
#49
Quote by progbass
For the record - going down as saying MoP is bad/boring/prole music with the exception of Orion. If the whole album had the quality And consistency of Orion it would certainly be one the greatest albums in metal.

Sadly, that is not the case.


i concur, Kill em All is the only good Metallica album
#50
Quote by Scourge441
You're really using popularity as a criteria for judging these releases? You're basically arguing that Master of Puppets is the be-all-end-all of the genre because it's famous and hordes of crap bands like FFDP and Trivium and Avenged Sevenfold sing its praises, while highly creative and original albums like Awaken the Guardian or Crimson Glory's self-titled (both of which were released around the same time) are on a lower level simply because they didn't get the exposure or because there are less people capable of emulating them. Otherwise you wouldn't be arguing that Manilla Road are "inconsequential" in the face of the wide swath of bands that cite them as an influence and the respect that their recent releases get (something that has eluded Metallica for going on 30 years).

I love Master of Puppets, but you are wildly overstating how "creative" it actually is. Thrash - and heavy metal in general - was already well beyond that point when it came out, and negating the work of bands that actually pushed boundaries because they didn't reach as many people is juvenile. The only thing on Master of Puppets that I would consider truly unique is Orion - the rest is well-written, sure, but in what ways did Battery or Leper Messiah really change the game for thrash metal or the genre as a whole?


Not popularity. I don't care about how many 13 year olds first picked up a guitar and decided to upload videos of themselves playing the title track. I'm talking about its ability to introduce new sounds and ideas, some of which were copied well after its initial release. Nearly every song on the album is notably different from any other on it. Because I overplayed it so heavily at an early age I used to put it down a bit in favor of more underground thrash, but when I returned to it I was surprised at how much I was hearing that suddenly sounded way ahead of its time. It isn't just a FFDP or a Def Leppard or some other flash-in-the-pan metal-rape. It probably wouldn't be nearly as popular as it is were it not for the Black Album in the first place (not that it wasn't already selling a lot of copies anyways, of course). It's a genuinely excellent album, and while it may be "first level"/introductory to a lot of people (out of all the metal CDs in my dad's collection, it was hearing Battery and the title track that really got me interested in metal, and it's not like those were the songs playing on the radio either), but it manages to be a vital album in spite of its popularity.

I don't know any songs like Disposable Heroes at its time. It stripped the thrash riff down to nothing more than a one-note syncopated chug, yet with that it added shifty pacing that I can't compare to anything else at its time. Damage Inc was similarly choppy yet at its speed comes of as closer to the kind of riffing you'd find in a 90s post-thrash band like The Haunted (or at least the thrash that led to it, such as Believer). The Thing That Should Not Be is ridiculously dark and heavy, and again I don't know any song of its time that did quite the same thing. And although the solo is brief, that brief flash of dissonance is the kind of thing death metal wouldn't pick up on for years (see: Harmony Corruption).
#51
fwiw I can totally accept Hear Nothing... as a more important album as well, in addition to Slayer and other early extreme metal acts as I've admitted.

Also, no way in hell does the Crimson Glory S/T compare to Master of Puppets. Great album, but in what way was it *that* important? Unlike Transcendence it isn't remotely progressive, power metal had already been taken further by Fates Warning and Queensryche, and the best song on the album isn't even metal to begin with (Lost Reflection). Its popularity to the world at large is irrelevant to my point, but its influence on metal writing is what I'm talking about. To give an example, I consider Watchtower to be easily one of the most important bands to the development of metal on a whole, directly influencing virtually every progressive and technical metal band up into the early 90s, yet Energetic Disassembly had to be released on their own label because the masses weren't ready for intense, intricate progressive metal. That's what I'm talking about when I say influence. No Crimson Glory, no Sabbat, no Holy Terror, no Virgin Steele can touch that.
#52
Except...you know, without Metallica...the musical landscape of metal would probably still be the same...

That's not to say I don't enjoy Metallica now and again. I'm just saying, your argument is flawed and ignores all the other bands brought up. (See post #15 again.)
#54
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Except...you know, without Metallica...the musical landscape of metal would probably still be the same...

That's not to say I don't enjoy Metallica now and again. I'm just saying, your argument is flawed and ignores all the other bands brought up. (See post #15 again.)


Elaborate on how metal would be unchanged if one of the pioneering acts of thrash metal, whose works have been cited as influential across many metal styles and sub-genres, didn't exist plz.

I already replied to #15. If you think Dark Angel would even exist without Metallica's involvement in making California a hotspot for thrash metal, you're quite silly. Slayer played what was basically USPM when Metallica was getting thrashy. If you read any of the earliest metal zines, it will be obvious how important Kill 'Em All and their demos were to the underground metal scenes. I'm not trying to discredit any of the bands that went on to push heavy metal even further, but the historical revisionism shown by some of you is "next level".

Quote by The Virtuoso
I'm not going to hate on Metallica, although I do hate people who think MoP is the pinnacle of metal; nonetheless, give me No More Color or By Inheritance any day over MoP.


fwiw I enjoy By Inheritance and No More Color more than Master of Puppets as well, although you can't deny that By Inheritance comes from the Metallica-wing of thrash metal.
Last edited by HamburgerBoy at Jun 10, 2014,
#55
Quote by HamburgerBoy
Elaborate on how metal would be unchanged if one of the pioneering acts of thrash metal, whose works have been cited as influential across many metal styles and sub-genres, didn't exist plz.

I already replied to #15. If you think Dark Angel would even exist without Metallica's involvement in making California a hotspot for thrash metal, you're quite silly. Slayer played what was basically USPM when Metallica was getting thrashy. If you read any of the earliest metal zines, it will be obvious how important Kill 'Em All and their demos were to the underground metal scenes. I'm not trying to discredit any of the bands that went on to push heavy metal even further, but the historical revisionism shown by some of you is "next level".


You said Bathory wasn't metal, therefore your opinion is no longer valid because you are a false. See your way out of the metal forum.
Last edited by BL1NDSIDE-J at Jun 10, 2014,
#56
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Except...you know, without Metallica...the musical landscape of metal would probably still be the same... (See post #15 again.)


The hell? They're sort of the reason why Slayer got faster and heavier.
#57
Quote by HamburgerBoy
Elaborate on how metal would be unchanged if one of the pioneering acts of thrash metal, whose works have been cited as influential across many metal styles and sub-genres, didn't exist plz.

I already replied to #15. If you think Dark Angel would even exist without Metallica's involvement in making California a hotspot for thrash metal, you're quite silly. Slayer played what was basically USPM when Metallica was getting thrashy. If you read any of the earliest metal zines, it will be obvious how important Kill 'Em All and their demos were to the underground metal scenes. I'm not trying to discredit any of the bands that went on to push heavy metal even further, but the historical revisionism shown by some of you is "next level".


fwiw I enjoy By Inheritance and No More Color more than Master of Puppets as well, although you can't deny that By Inheritance comes from the Metallica-wing of thrash metal.


There's no denying Metallica's importance as a band during the Kill 'Em All days, but I wonder how much would be changed if MoP had never been released? I think at that point in time other bands were already forming their own voices and releasing some of their best work. Most of the bands I've seen who cite MoP as an influence are more of the mainstream, poppy metal bands like Trivium.

If you would, trace the influence MoP has had on metal. What exactly did it contribute that Metallica had not already done on No Life 'Til Leather, Kill 'Em All, and perhaps Ride the Lightning?

Also, By Inheritance traced to Metallica? How?
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#58
Quote by Morphogenesis26
The hell? They're sort of the reason why Slayer got faster and heavier.

Well...you're right.

But, referring specifically to MoP...what did that album change as far as Thrash? Slayer was already quite heavy and fast by '86 and were quite comfortable with their blasphemous lyrical content and so on. Reign in Blood came out that year, and we all know the influence that album had.
Using another band as an example: Kreator were coming into their own. They released Pleasure to Kill in the same year, and that's an album that some of the Death Metal or Black Metal bands cite as an influence.


MoP just wasn't a gamechanger in 1986. Sure, Kill 'Em All upped the ante. Even Ride the Lightning could be said to have influence. But MoP? I just don't see it... Good album? Yes. Gamechanger? No.
#59
Sabaton's Heroes really made me cringe while listening to it. I'm sure it's a Metal elitist's wet dream and all, but I have a hard time listening to that stuff seriously once you compare it to MoP.

I've only been into Metal since I was about 22 (almost 30 now), and I still happen to think MoP is fantastic. It certainly influenced most bands for the next decade what a Metal album should sound like. It's title track also is considered by many to be the "Stairway to Heaven" of Heavy/Thrash Metal. Say all you want about there being better Long metal songs, as there definitely is, but nothing was more influential than MoP the song since War Pigs
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#61
Quote by BL1NDSIDE-J
Did anyone actually listen to the album Heroes? I did its shit.

I quite like it. Along with the new Edguy and Freedom Call albums it has been on my running playlist recently. I quite enjoyed it. I wouldn't profess it to be any great masterpiece. Certainly no Art of War either. But it satisfies a mood, and certainly for running it has the beat, and the motivational and triumphant melodies.
#62
I thought it was meh, I kind of lied though I only listened to one song.
Last edited by BL1NDSIDE-J at Jun 10, 2014,
#63
Quote by BL1NDSIDE-J
I thought it was meh, I kind of lied though I only listened to one song.


Why do you edit every post after you make one?
#64
Quote by HamburgerBoy
I don't know any songs like Disposable Heroes at its time. It stripped the thrash riff down to nothing more than a one-note syncopated chug, yet with that it added shifty pacing that I can't compare to anything else at its time.

One note chugging was definitely around in thrash before that - the fact that Disposable Heroes does it more is not an innovation. Not totally sure what "shifty pacing" means so I won't comment on it, but I doubt Metallica were the first to do it.

Quote by HamburgerBoy
Damage Inc was similarly choppy yet at its speed comes of as closer to the kind of riffing you'd find in a 90s post-thrash band like The Haunted (or at least the thrash that led to it, such as Believer).

You'll have to elaborate more on this. Damage Inc. sounds no more like The Haunted to me than any other 80's thrash band.

Quote by HamburgerBoy
The Thing That Should Not Be is ridiculously dark and heavy, and again I don't know any song of its time that did quite the same thing. And although the solo is brief, that brief flash of dissonance is the kind of thing death metal wouldn't pick up on for years (see: Harmony Corruption).

This I can agree with in a thrash metal context, though A) I'd argue that Hell Awaits is darker and heavier, and B) doom metal and crust punk were all over the slow-heavy-dissonant thing well before Metallica.
#65
Quote by Morphogenesis26
Why do you edit every post after you make one?


Because my grammar is shit and I always end up having to make corrections, also why do you give a ****?
#66
Quote by BL1NDSIDE-J
Because my grammar is shit and I always end up having to make corrections, also why do you give a ****?


I noticed it and I was curious.
#67
ZOG made me do it, would have been a better answer to your question. If only I would have thought it sooner!
#68
Quote by Scourge441
One note chugging was definitely around in thrash before that - the fact that Disposable Heroes does it more is not an innovation. Not totally sure what "shifty pacing" means so I won't comment on it, but I doubt Metallica were the first to do it.


Forgive my terminology as I'm sure I'll be bungling it a bit, but what I mean is that while many bands had some form of the one-note thrash chug, Disposable Heroes did it differently in how it incorporated a kind of stop-start rhythm and made it about nothing but the rhythm, no descending riff-ending power chord thing ala Exodus and co, no straight-ahead chugging without rests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdN9731rgFc#t=32s

And as much shit as Lars gets, even in the drumming how he simply decides to hit the snare on the 4th beat instead of the 3rd around 50 seconds in, to produce this kind of lurching effect almost making it feel like the riff changed when it hadn't, was pretty unique on its own for that time. I suppose the very beginning of Chemical Warfare kind of takes a similar approach to thrash riffing, but not to the same extent. It's thrash where the notes they don't play are as important as the ones they do. A few years later that kind of stuff was popping up a lot tech-y leaning thrash like Heathen and Artillery, and I see the slowing down and increased emphasis of syncopation on that kind of riffing as prototypical to the tech-groove style.

Quote by Scourge441
You'll have to elaborate more on this. Damage Inc. sounds no more like The Haunted to me than any other 80's thrash band.


Admittedly I first saw the lineage because of an UltraBoris review, but I can't help but see a progression from this to this to this. It's just in how rapidly the riffs alternate between 8th and 16th notes to produce a really choppy kind of thrash riff. imo, Hetfield really got his defining style of riffcraft down with multiple songs on Master of Puppets, and I can't think of any other thrash riffcrafters of the time of that album's release that had a similar level of clinical tightness. And I'm not a mega fanboy of his either; Vetterli and 80s Sifringer share my heart there, I just can't think of any examples of thrash bands that played quite like that period of Metallica at that time, when there were plenty that did after it.

Quote by Scourge441
This I can agree with in a thrash metal context, though A) I'd argue that Hell Awaits is darker and heavier, and B) doom metal and crust punk were all over the slow-heavy-dissonant thing well before Metallica.


Hell Awaits is an entirely different kind of dark and heavy though. In terms of extremity/intensity alone, no question that Master of Puppets had been usurped by dozens of bands. I'd like to hear your examples for doom metal and crust punk though; the former more because I can't think of any (although I will admit that Trouble had some similar material that even incorporated thrashy riffing (and I know Hetfield was a huge Trouble fan anyways)), the latter because my general unfamiliarity with it (outside of a little bit of Amebix and maybe a couple others) would be educational to me. And for a little more clarification, in terms of the solo I'm not just talking about the whammy-rape part (Slayer gets credit for that).
#70
Sabaton are really an up and down for me, usually their albums have three or four huge tracks that make you spontaneously grow a beard and chest hair, but for the most part I cant listen to the album as a whole for the sake of the goddamn fillers! This is why im psyched as hell to listen to Heroes and see if they can't prove me wrong!
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