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#41
Quote by bptrav

I don't think any reasonably person would argue Malmsteen isn't amazingly talented technically, but there is so much more to music than that. I'd much rather listen to some less technically proficient players who can actually write music. The Beatles probably had farts more musical than anything Malmsteen has done.


Beatles fanboy. Nuff sed
#42
Quote by bptrav

I don't think any reasonably person would argue Malmsteen isn't amazingly talented technically, but there is so much more to music than that. I'd much rather listen to some less technically proficient players who can actually write music. The Beatles probably had farts more musical than anything Malmsteen has done.

I would argue that he is very average technically. He misses a lot of notes, way too many, has awful tone and little to no modulation. People say he plays unemotionally but I disagree, he lacks technical prowess, I can play more technically than he can and I have a full time job and only play half an hour everyday. Most people could play better than him with half an hour of practice every day.
Last edited by farcry at Sep 17, 2014,
#43
^^^^ Of course you can play 'better' than him.
Thank God im an atheist
#44
I can, many people can. He is not that good, practice more and develop your ear better. The amount of dead notes he hits is astounding. Some performances he hits only 60% of the notes properly. I have never seen a so called virtuoso that is so sloppy because it's unlikely there is one.
#45
Malmsteen is the only guitar "virtuoso" who plays 20times more notes than is ever needed. I've heard him playing with orchestras before, and it's just painful. It's like the orchestra is doing its thing, and that sounds fine. Then, in come Ywngie with 50 notes in the space of 2 seconds, and only half the notes actually fit. God forbid the guy learned how to create basic melodies that would compliment people other than himself and very basic basslines that accompany him.
#46
Having a lot of notes doesn't make it bad, having bad phrasing and missing a lot of those notes makes it bad. Buckethead can play at lightspeed but manages to keep his phrases with the rhythm and doesn't miss notes. I say it's not that he's boring, it's that he's actually bad at playing guitar. The mechanics of his finger motions lack proper economical movement makes him bad, he's fast so people confuse it with lack of emotion.

Case in point, take away the distortion and you can hear how many notes he misses, in the first 15 seconds he misses 4 or 5 notes (some guitarists don't make that many mistakes in an entire performance), I listen to 32 seconds in and it's just mistake after mistake:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvMKsgVBzMo
Last edited by farcry at Sep 21, 2014,
#47
Quote by farcry
Having a lot of notes doesn't make it bad, having bad phrasing and missing a lot of those notes makes it bad.

If you're clashing against the orchestra, because half your notes are not in key...it's fucking bad. The guy has very little sense of "play what's needed". It's fine to play lightning fast in certain situations, but not when it's a situation with an orchestra playing at mid-pace. Ywngie wouldn't know restraint if it hit him in the face, knocked him down, and insulted his momma.

Edit:
Of course, I'm not disagreeing with what you've said in regards to missed notes. I'm just saying, this is another issue, imho.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Sep 21, 2014,
#48
You can have notes not in key and sound great. Megadeth does it all the time, notes from out of nowhere and it doesn't even seem like they are in a key sometimes but the phrasing makes it sound good. Listen to Holy Wars, the acoustic riff is just all over the place (and so is most of the song) only resembling Eminor some of the time and it's those notes out of key that make the song unique.
#49
Quote by farcry
You can have notes not in key and sound great. Megadeth does it all the time, notes from out of nowhere and it doesn't even seem like they are in a key sometimes but the phrasing makes it sound good. Listen to Holy Wars, the acoustic riff is just all over the place (and so is most of the song) only resembling Eminor some of the time and it's those notes out of key that make the song unique.

There's no orchestra in the background during that part of the Megadeth song. That's the difference. (Sidenote: That's literally one of my favorite songs, and that lick is fantastic.)

And "out of key" doesn't mean, in this case, that you're playing notes outside the key signature. It means you're literally clashing against the rest of the musical theme.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Sep 21, 2014,
#50
It's his mindset, he doesn't really follow the backing chord structure of the rest of the band he plays with a lot of the time and that's probably the number 2 skill that exists asides from hitting all the notes correctly. What you are hearing isn't specifically key issues (but yes he does clash with the backing band sometimes), it's chord structure, song structure and bad phrasing.

To all those that are thinking oh we are just being too hard on him I assure you we are not. If you are an aspiring guitarist don't aspire to be like Malmsteen, he is a sloppy guitarist and doesn't approach the craft from a professional perspective. People like Buckethead and Marty Friedman play dynamically with good tonality and they write good songs with melodies that follow the chord structure of the backing band, Malmsteen does not.
Last edited by farcry at Sep 21, 2014,
#51
Quote by farcry
It's his mindset, he doesn't really follow the backing chord structure of the rest of the band he plays with a lot of the time and that's probably the number 2 skill that exists asides from hitting all the notes correctly. What you are hearing isn't specifically key issues (but yes he does clash with the backing band sometimes), it's chord structure, song structure and bad phrasing.

That's the problem.
#52
I was about to come on here and say "Jeez, this subforum has really gone to hell if all we're discussing is whether Yngwie Malmsteen is boring or not"... but then I started reading this more recent discussion about his sloppiness and disregard for clean playing. Now we're getting somewhere! I'm finding it much more interesting to read all this analysis on his technique, rather than "He plays too fast, so he's unemotional" or "His albums all sound the same and he's never changed his style".
#53
Yeah I agree. To me hearing emotion comes from witnessing the passion someone puts into the craft of musicianship. Each note being part of the overall phrase is important, you hear passion and emotion when you hear the time and care the artist put into practicing getting the perfect sound by practicing the same thing with diligent care.

The lack of emotion people perceive is the lack of attention the guy puts into his songwriting, he puts all the time into the cheap frills and doesn't make sure that he's treating the guitar as an instrument that sings and resonates in contrast with the other instruments he's supposed to be playing along with. Getting that perfect tone and harmony with the other instruments is where the emotion comes into play because you get to witness the end result of tireless practice and discipline. It's why a cover of Little Wing by Malmsteen sounds so shallow, there's no modulation, no attention to the finer details of his tonality it's just straight up shredding with no adherence to how the audience perceives the sounds he's creating. To paraphrase David Gilmour; when you achieve perfect tonality you can sense the audience is feeling the song along with you and everyone is experiencing the same resonant quality inside themselves. Malmsteen never achieves that.
Last edited by farcry at Sep 21, 2014,
#54
^^^You seem to be focusing more on Yngwie's more recent performances---the fact is, when he came out, he was one of the cleanest players on the planet. I'm pretty sure these 'mobility' issues you keep referring to are connected to his tendonitis.

Sure, his style hasn't really developed much over the years but then, nor has BB King's or Angus Young's, or Dave Mustaine's for that matter.

Also, please post a video of your playing and let us judge if you're 'better' or not
Thank God im an atheist
#55
Quote by wil

Also, please post a video of your playing and let us judge if you're 'better' or not

I will most definitely post a video of me playing some time, once I have the recording equipment. This post will be here until then. I'll learn something he plays and play it with fewer mistakes.

The thing is you're completely right about Dave Mustaine, I agree 100%. He hasn't evolved since the early 90's. Dave admits he doesn't practice and that's exactly why. Megadeth's newest album was terrible in comparison to their earlier stuff. You need to practice nearly every day to evolve and many guitarists reach a point where they think they don't really need to (e.g. Kirk Hammett). He puts in some really lazy performances live and you can tell he isn't motivated to get better at all.

I practice every day and listen to myself play and play on my amp with a really clean tone so I can listen for my own mistakes. I recommend every aspiring guitarist does it. A lot of guitarists won't do that so they don't get better because they don't eliminate the mistakes. Once you eliminate the mistakes you can focus on actual music structure and most people never get there.
Last edited by farcry at Sep 24, 2014,
#56
+1 about Malmsteen playing cleaner in his younger days. I've seen some '80s clips where he was so much cleaner and sharper for some reason. There was a kinda 'snap' to his notes which had more confidence in their articulation, whereas now they sound flubby and dull - almost like he's halfheartedly palm muting everything.

I'm not gonna criticise further than that, seeing as I can't play anything worth shit, but it's what I've observed over the years.
#57
Quote by farcry
I will most definitely post a video of me playing some time, once I have the recording equipment. This post will be here until then. I'll learn something he plays and play it with fewer mistakes.

The thing is you're completely right about Dave Mustaine, I agree 100%. He hasn't evolved since the early 90's. Dave admits he doesn't practice and that's exactly why. Megadeth's newest album was terrible in comparison to their earlier stuff. You need to practice nearly every day to evolve and many guitarists reach a point where they think they don't really need to (e.g. Kirk Hammett). He puts in some really lazy performances live and you can tell he isn't motivated to get better at all.

I practice every day and listen to myself play and play on my amp with a really clean tone so I can listen for my own mistakes. I recommend every aspiring guitarist does it. A lot of guitarists won't do that so they don't get better because they don't eliminate the mistakes. Once you eliminate the mistakes you can focus on actual music structure and most people never get there.


Please do---I'm not a major fanboy or anything, I'm aware that are 'better' guitarists around than Malmsteen, but people should stop the referencing fat, 'Unleash the fooking fury', donut-jokes, post-car crash, tendonitis Yngwie and take some time to check out what made him so famous in the first place. He is a crucial part of guitar history-- as Zakk Wylde said, Yngwie raised the bar, he literally re-invented the notions of what could be done on a guitar=people had never heard arpeggios played in such a manner before in a rock context, nor picking so clean.
Perhaps he doesn't practise as much anymore, but nor do I....When I was 19 at University, I used to practise 7-8 hours a day at times, and my technique then was miles better than it is now in terms of speed, cleanliness etc, but I still consider myself a better musician as I pay more attention to phrasing, tone, WHAT notes are being played rather than how many...
Thank God im an atheist
#58
In the beginning malmsteen was the greatest to me but as time goes by i keep on seeing his only guitar's skills...and never try to improve how to put his guitar sound into a great song. So in the end i leave malmsteen alone. Although slash is not as good as him but he put the guitar souls into the song and it fits perfectly throughout all the guns and roses song.
#59
Really weird...

I was at practice with some guys I just got together with, and the vocalist and I were having this same arguement.. It was about John Petrucci and Dream Theatre in general but it was pretty much the same thing. Is it better to be technical, or can you literally "feel" a song together from start to finish.

He claimed Dream Theatre never made it further than they did because the average listener gets bored of overly technical music, but I without question, love this type of stuff. You can definetly harness this type of playing and make a song and lyrics with it.


I don't really take what the guy says too seriously. He doesn't play any instrument and this whole arguement took place after I tried to talk to him about simple song structure. This was all just a long way of saying that Malmsteen and neoclassical in general is NOT boring.
#60
Personaly i think the old stuff from Malmsteen aint booring, but the new stuff from him sound repetitive and booring...
#61
For me this kind of guitar playing is as interesting as watching somebody doing a trick like juggeling with chainsaws. I can't do it myself and I never will, but I don't care.
#62
I love HellToKitty's comment. Sorry, I'll be stealing that analogy in my own conversations. I agree 100%. As a player I find the "shed faster than lightning" thing is amazing for a few minutes, then I am bored. Ask people who are not musicians and I think you will find they are bored with it from the first solo. They don't get how difficult it is (and it definitely is) and they don't care. When you are trying to cram 32nd notes into every measure it's all about technique (great as it is) and not about interacting with the other musicians and creating a unified sound. The emotion angle discussed here is relevant when you accept that it's not the emotion you feel when playing that matters as much as the emotion your playing conveys and moves the listener. There are players whose songs and playing can change my emotional state (happy, sad, introspective etc.) when I listen to them. Shedders generally make me say WOW! That's amazing!.. and then I move on.
Last edited by Rickholly74 at Oct 16, 2014,
#63
Imagine being at a concert of his and not really into guitar, after 5 mins you'd be wanting to leave. Although he does try to put on a show I guess. I can't say much bad about him, he was a major influence on thousands of players with his unique style. Sure you say, I could practice that technique/sound/style and get it better than him eventually, a ridiculous statement when you figure he invented the technique, sound, style.

I wish he would do some proper playing and write a good track too, but he does what he does, and is pretty successful.
#64
The name Miles Davis came up several times in this thread. Many years ago (late 60's early 70's) I went to see Miles Davis in NYC. I grew up playing trumpet though I never got good at it and had always heard about Miles being the best ever. A friend and I went to New York to see Miles. Miles had this all star band that spent most of the concert "noodling" around behind him. Miles had a microphone attached to his horn and was playing through a wah wah pedal for a great deal of the show. To say the least it was a wierd experience. We rarely saw his face because for most of the concert he played with his back to the audience. When the concert was over he just walked of stage without a word or look at the audience. One of the strangest concerts I have ever been to. People gave him a standing ovation and I'll never understand why.
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