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TheAscendant
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#1
Hello! I'm currently composing a song with a bridge using these four chords:

---3---0---1---0---
---3---3---1---1---
---4---0---2---0---
---5---4---3---2---
---5---5---3---3---
---3---5---1---3---

These are Gmaj, Dmaj, Fmaj and Cmaj chords I believe. As I will be also using these chords as the base for my solo, I was wondering what scales I could use over them.
From some minimal research I found the notes in these chords to relate to C Lydian.
Other than that I have no idea as my musical theory does not extend this far. If anyone
could give me some ideas and tips on this, I would be extremely thankful. (:

Cheers.
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#2
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Hail
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#4
just pretend it's c major with an F# as an accidental over the D

please
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W4RP1G
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#5
Quote by TheAscendant
Other than that I have no idea as my musical theory does not extend this far.

Quote by TheAscendant
wuut

The general consensus seems to be that if you don't have a very strong grasp on advanced music theory, then you shouldn't be thinking about modes. Idk, I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to theory, but that's my understanding.
Hail
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#6
Quote by W4RP1G
The general consensus seems to be that if you don't have a very strong grasp on advanced music theory, then you shouldn't be thinking about modes. Idk, I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to theory, but that's my understanding.


no, you shouldn't think about modes at all. you could be fucking bach and i'd tell you to just learn what accidentals are and write music as music rather than arithmetic.

music theory is descriptive, not prescriptive, and looking for filler answers and ideas (read: scales and "modes") without being able to analyze an entire context (read: make music and use your ears) will only lead you down a painful path.

take your progression, TS, and just write with your ears for a bit. saying "these 7 notes are okay to use" is like giving a man a fish, but it's absolutely a waste of time in the long-run.
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chronowarp
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#9
Quote by TheAscendant
Hello! I'm currently composing a song with a bridge using these four chords:

---3---0---1---0---
---3---3---1---1---
---4---0---2---0---
---5---4---3---2---
---5---5---3---3---
---3---5---1---3---

These are Gmaj, Dmaj, Fmaj and Cmaj chords I believe. As I will be also using these chords as the base for my solo, I was wondering what scales I could use over them.
From some minimal research I found the notes in these chords to relate to C Lydian.
Other than that I have no idea as my musical theory does not extend this far. If anyone
could give me some ideas and tips on this, I would be extremely thankful. (:

Cheers.

G - G B D
D - D F# A
F - F A C
C- C E G

G A B C D E F F# G

No "one" scale is going to fit all these chords. Why don't you think about what scale fits most of the chords, then think about what note needs to change over the one chord that doesnt fit.

Play G major. Change your F#'s to F naturals over the F major.
Last edited by chronowarp at Oct 1, 2012,
mattrusso
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#10
First of all, I don't know what that second chord is, but it's definitely not D major. That G in there is a real problem if you want it to be heard as a D major chord. How did you come up with that structure? The only way I can analyze it is as some strange A Dorian modal voicing or as a polychord (assuming there's a bass playing the root underneath).

Aside from that, the very presence of the note "F" takes away the most important element of the Lydian sound: the #4. In C Lydian, that defining note would be F#; the presence of F (natural 4) takes C Lydian out of the question.

The fact is that there is no one scale that will fit all those chords. The main reason for this is the fact that you have (or at least try to have) a D major triad and an F major triad. Since the D triad has F# in it and the F triad has F natural, you're going to have to shift your pitch collection at some point.
chronowarp
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#11
Quote by mattrusso
First of all, I don't know what that second chord is, but it's definitely not D major. That G in there is a real problem if you want it to be heard as a D major chord. How did you come up with that structure? The only way I can analyze it is as some strange A Dorian modal voicing or as a polychord (assuming there's a bass playing the root underneath).

Aside from that, the very presence of the note "F" takes away the most important element of the Lydian sound: the #4. In C Lydian, that defining note would be F#; the presence of F (natural 4) takes C Lydian out of the question.

The fact is that there is no one scale that will fit all those chords. The main reason for this is the fact that you have (or at least try to have) a D major triad and an F major triad. Since the D triad has F# in it and the F triad has F natural, you're going to have to shift your pitch collection at some point.

You could call it Dadd9add11. Either way it's definitely a D major chord at its core.

This definitely isn't Lydian, it's just a typical bVII borrowed chord...which adds some nice old timey flavor to the progression...a good opportunity to inject a bluesy G penta lick.
Last edited by chronowarp at Oct 1, 2012,
mattrusso
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#12
Quote by chronowarp
You could call it Dadd9add11.

There's no such thing as a major chord with a natural 11. The minor 2nd rub between the natural 3 and the natural 4/"11" makes it totally harmonically ambiguous, at least to my ears (and to most, if not all modern music theorists).

That's not to say you shouldn't play it; if you like it, play it. Just know that it's not what you thought it was and it's gonna function in a different way.
chronowarp
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#13
Quote by TheAscendant
Does it matter that I'm using an F major chord?

If you like how it sounds, no it doesn't matter.
If you want to be able to explain why you chose it, then maybe that matters, but nobody gives a shit they just care about how it sounds.
chronowarp
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#14
Quote by mattrusso
There's no such thing as a major chord with a natural 11. The minor 2nd rub between the natural 3 and the natural 4/"11" makes it totally harmonically ambiguous, at least to my ears (and to most, if not all modern music theorists).

That's not to say you shouldn't play it; if you like it, play it. Just know that it's not what you thought it was and it's gonna function in a different way.

Yes there is... lol.

Can't tell if srs...
TheAscendant
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#15
I could go with a Gmaj/Emin thing for the first three chords and then pretty much anything that would work over the Fmaj chord?
chronowarp
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#16
Quote by TheAscendant
I could go with a Gmaj/Emin thing for the first three chords and then pretty much anything that would work over the Fmaj chord?

Yes. But to make it easier on yourself, if you actually learned your scales correctly (you know where the scale degrees sit in each pattern) just lock onto avoiding the maj7 (F#) over that F...and instead play the note a half step lower and nothing else will have to change.
mattrusso
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#17
Quote by chronowarp
Yes there is... lol.

Can't tell if srs...

No dude, major 11 literally doesn't exist. Read any number of books on modern music theory and they'll confirm this. A chord from a major chord scale CAN be sus4 (very different from 11), but then it can't contain the 3 (unless it's an octave up in the form of tension 10, and that's a pretty weird sound). You can have a major chord with #11 or a minor chord with natural 11, but major with natural 11 is an incorrect and misleading way to represent pretty much anything.
chronowarp
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#18
Nah, dude, it definitely exists.
Is it often neglected because the internal m2 can disrupt the function of the chord? Yes.

That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, hasn't been used, or can't be used. Sounds like you're just regurgitating 60's jazz rhetoric.

I think what you're trying to say is, "It's atypical to use a natural 11th extension on a major chord, because it creates a highly dissonant m2 interval between the 3rd & 11th, which can disrupt the function of the chord. Because of this Jazz musicians tend to raise the 4th to create a maj7#11."

I'd love to read a music theory book that forbids you from using a specific sonority, and claims it doesn't exist...please show me.
Last edited by chronowarp at Oct 1, 2012,
TheAscendant
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#19
This is going right over my head :L But if I choose to do the Gmaj/Emin thing over these chords, when it comes to playing the Fmaj in the progression, I avoid using the F# or I just flatten it? This makes the chord progression in Gmaj with an F accidental right?
chronowarp
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#20
Quote by TheAscendant
This is going right over my head :L But if I choose to do the Gmaj/Emin thing over these chords, when it comes to playing the Fmaj in the progression, I avoid using the F# or I just flatten it? This makes the chord progression in Gmaj with an F accidental right?

Just flatten it.

& Yes.
mattrusso
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#21
Quote by chronowarp
Nah, dude, it definitely exists.
Is it often neglected because the internal m2 can disrupt the function of the chord? Yes.

That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, hasn't been used, or can't be used. Sounds like you're just regurgitating 60's jazz rhetoric.

I think what you're trying to say is, "It's atypical to use a natural 11th extension on a major chord, because it creates a highly dissonant m2 interval between the 3rd & 11th, which can disrupt the function of the chord. Because of this Jazz musicians tend to raise the 4th to create a maj7#11."

I'd love to read a music theory book that forbids you from using a specific sonority, and claims it doesn't exist...please show me.


http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PDFmusic/Berkleeharmony/Harmony1.PDF
http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PDFmusic/Berkleeharmony/Harmony2.PDF
http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PDFmusic/Berkleeharmony/Harmony3.PDF
http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PDFmusic/Berkleeharmony/Harmony4.PDF

This is the core harmony curriculum from Berklee (it's a little out of date, but I'm sure it still supports what I'm saying). How's that?

I'm not saying this sonority doesn't exist or trying to tell someone not to use it. It just doesn't sound like D major and there are certain implications to that. Play that on a guitar. Does it really sound like D major to you? It certainly doesn't to me, and I think you'd have to theoretically force yourself into thinking that it does.

Also, the reason for raising 11 to sharp 11 is to create a Lydian voicing, not to take away a dissonant relationship. It creates a tritone with the root; not exactly the most consonant sound.

I'm not trying to argue with or confront you (don't take anything I say personally/negatively), but I'm not making this shit up. It's what I study and I'm trying to spread what knowledge I have and clear up a lot of confusion.

The funny thing is that we basically both have the same advice for the threadstarter!
chronowarp
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#22
Great, I don't disagree with you (if you actually read my posts) that an internal m2 in a major chord disrupts the function.

But you said it doesn't exist, that's not the case. This is purely semantics since we both understand the how/why. I'm a jazz musician as well, this shit isn't news to me.

I just don't know if telling the OP "bro you can't use that chord" is the right advice. I actually don't find that particular voicing all that disgusting, especially because the m2 is buried in the middle.
Last edited by chronowarp at Oct 1, 2012,
AlanHB
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#25
I got a little lost where the argument went downhill but meh, it's a progression in G major with a bVII borrowed from the parallel minor.

What's the scale? G major, but you can play a b7 accidental over the F to accommodate for clashes.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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Sleepy__Head
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#26
Quote by TheAscendant
These are Gmaj, Dmaj, Fmaj and Cmaj chords I believe. As I will be also using these chords as the base for my solo, I was wondering what scales I could use over them.


If you're thinking in those terms when you're in the process of writing a solo you're going about the process the wrong way.

Solos are musical interludes. So write some music you like. That's all there is to it. You can use any notes you like as long as you like what you have produced.

You can write it in a microtonal scale known only to you.
You can just hammer away at the note C for 3/4 hour.
You can record the sounds of a guitar being destroyed with a mangle and ask for the player to repeatedly shout out the phrase "an internal m2 in a major chord disrupts the function" in a sarcastic voice.

Making a big plan of 'how I will solo' before you begin is like preparing a bunch of diagrams for the next time you "get it on" with the missus. Just go with the flow. And if you're not in the mood get yo ass in the mood and try again.
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griffRG7321
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#27
Quote by chronowarp


I think what you're trying to say is, "It's atypical to use a natural 11th extension on a major chord, because it creates a highly dissonant m2 interval between the 3rd & 11th, which can disrupt the function of the chord. Because of this Jazz musicians tend to raise the 4th to create a maj7#11."



The reason the Maj11 isn't used often is mainly because of the dissonance between the 7th and 11th, not the 3rd and 11th.

The function isn't changed with the addition of the 11th to a major triad.
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#28
Quote by mattrusso
First of all, I don't know what that second chord is, but it's definitely not D major. That G in there is a real problem if you want it to be heard as a D major chord. How did you come up with that structure? The only way I can analyze it is as some strange A Dorian modal voicing or as a polychord (assuming there's a bass playing the root underneath).


It's based on an open C major shape moved up two frets. The open strings mean it isn't D major, but you can see why he thought it was.
Hail
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#29
i'm starting to like chronowarp

i'm still sticking with "TS, use your ears, this scale shit makes a lot more sense when you actually figure it out for yourself and will be a lot easier than trying to line up your ear with what you're playing later"
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#30
Quote by TheAscendant
So...write whatever sounds good to my ears?


Yes, don't think scale/chords/time signature/etc, write whatever sounds good to you.
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#31
Quote by mattrusso
First of all, I don't know what that second chord is, but it's definitely not D major. That G in there is a real problem if you want it to be heard as a D major chord. How did you come up with that structure? The only way I can analyze it is as some strange A Dorian modal voicing or as a polychord (assuming there's a bass playing the root underneath).

D/A, (2nd inversion)

The G note is just a very brief inner pedal for the first two chords.
chronowarp
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#32
Quote by griffRG7321
The reason the Maj11 isn't used often is mainly because of the dissonance between the 7th and 11th, not the 3rd and 11th.

The function isn't changed with the addition of the 11th to a major triad.

No, it's the 3rd & 11th. A m2 is more disruptive than a tritone.

The function is obscured, which is why it isn't typically used.

Think about it. Cmaj... maj#11 is used because of 7th and 11th...(B-F=tritone). So you raise it B-F#. Now you've got another tritone between the root and the 11th...so why did you change one tritone just to create another? E F=m2, E-F#=M2! No more m2s in the chord!

Think about commonly used sonorities...Can you think of anywhere that you'll typically find a m2 inside a non-dominant type chord? Then think about how many internal tritones you can find in non-dominant functioning chords.
Last edited by chronowarp at Oct 1, 2012,
mdc
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#33
Quote by chronowarp
Think about commonly used sonorities...Can you think of anywhere that you'll typically find a m2 inside a non-dominant type chord?

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?p=30388711#post30388711
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?p=30390917#post30390917 (errr, that was meant to send you to the top of this thread lol)
Last edited by mdc at Oct 1, 2012,
mdc
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#35
In the context of his progression, yes. But sure there can be other contexts where you can label that chord as Dadd4/add11.
Captaincranky
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#37
Quote by mdc
D/A, (2nd inversion)

The G note is just a very brief inner pedal for the first two chords.
I think we're talking about pulling a C major open shape, up to the second fret, but still playing across all six strings. (And feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

This tactic produces a V, I resolution in G major. It just seems like a folkie / cowboy idiomatic progression.

As you pointed out, the G note hanging over from the C major open is a grace note.

However, as the chords blend, it produces a Dadd 9 (from the open e-1), a Dsus4, (from the open G-3). The 3rd of D (F# (obviously) adds a Major 7th interval to the impending G Major.

At one point, since there's no B note ever, you could argue there's a bizarre and magical, "thing-a-ma-chord", which suddenly appears, Gmajor7sus2. (the Gsus2 being the A note on E-6) (with a 6th of G, e-1 open, thrown in for good measure).

Since I'll undoubtedly be ignored anyway, I'll tentatively rename that to Gsus2major7, which will give everybody another statement to refute.

But I suppose since it all happens so quickly, it's probably better not to worry about it, as you tend to get bogged down in theory, with the resultant 7 page contention-fest).
Last edited by Captaincranky at Oct 1, 2012,
mdc
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#38
Quote by Captaincranky
But I suppose since it all happens so quickly, it's probably better not to worry about it,

Yeah, this.
as you tend to get bogged down in theory, with the resultant 7 page contention-fest).
Don't. Just... don't even...
Captaincranky
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#39
Quote by mdc
Don't. Just... don't even...
Dude, not to worry. I said my piece, and with it, surrendered my inclination to GAF......
Last edited by Captaincranky at Oct 1, 2012,
MaggaraMarine
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#40
x54030 is used a lot. Very common chord in G major progressions. And it definitely is a D major chord that has some open string color notes. You don't need to name them. It's just a D major with color notes. Same as you can move E major chord up and leave E and B strings open. In this case you move C major chord up and leave E and G strings open. Just color notes and used a lot everywhere.
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