asb9pwns
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2009
30 IQ
#1
Hey guys my band is currently in the process of getting to i would say "stage 2" of being a band were negotiating with a record label and we're planning to tour by this coming summer. We all need to upgrade our gear most of it is old or just not going to work for our style. I'll post a video of one of our songs as an idea to help me with my question. In the studio we used a marshall JCM 2000 head for recording. That is just out of our budget for two guitarists. I'm looking into Orange alot, I really like their tone and their overall durability, I'm looking in to either The Orange Dual Terror or The Orange TH30 head and more than likely an avatar cab either a 4x12 or a 2x12. My question is with this would 30watts be enough? i'm aware that we'll be mic'd up and all so i would assume it would but would it be good for us to save money and get 2x12 cabs? and as for avatar cabs I know Vintage 30's are preferred by the majority would this be what you would suggest for our style or what would anyone suggest for us to use? also other amps you would suggest? I was also looking into the peavy Windsor but they don't make them anymore. I honestly feel like an idiot asking all these questions so I apologize, all help is appreciated. Thanks guys!
Addonexus408
Bay Area Thrash
Join date: Nov 2011
10 IQ
#4
No prob, sounds good man. Reminds me of Circa Survive . 30 watts through a 2x12 is definitely more then enough. As for the V30's some people find them to be a bit "hissy" on the upper mid/high end which in the style of music you play isnt too great. You should look into Eminence Red Coats, amazing alternatives to the typical Celestions you might find. What is your budget for a head? cab?
Quote by shredder3386
Yup, Addonexus nailed it...
My band
Addonexus
asb9pwns
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2009
30 IQ
#5
Quote by Addonexus408
No prob, sounds good man. Reminds me of Circa Survive . 30 watts through a 2x12 is definitely more then enough. As for the V30's some people find them to be a bit "hissy" on the upper mid/high end which in the style of music you play isnt too great. You should look into Eminence Red Coats, amazing alternatives to the typical Celestions you might find. What is your budget for a head? cab?

Well we're all just pooling money together to buy all of our gear like we need a new drumset, cymbols,cabinets, amp heads, some pedals, just not fun lol we're getting money from the label and hopefully we'll get some from our kikstarter when we make it. But we want high end gear but not obviously we can't get the best of gear. say 1,200 for the head and cab? im pretty set on avatar cabs they're cheap and good and i think i can put the eminence speakers you were talking about in them. Do you think the Dual terror is a good head for this? or possibly the Vox Night Train? or anything else you may suggest? Thanks for the positive review of my band that means alot btw.
Robbgnarly
Tab Contributor
Join date: Feb 2011
290 IQ
#6
The money you get from the lable is mostlikely going to be for recording purposes (my bands have been on 2 small lables before).

Where do you live in the world?
2002 PRS CE22
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2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
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asb9pwns
Registered User
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#7
Quote by Robbgnarly
The money you get from the lable is mostlikely going to be for recording purposes (my bands have been on 2 small lables before).

Where do you live in the world?

We've already recorded a full album on our own, And im not 100% sure if it's going to be small label it's under Victory Records, it's called We Are Triumphant. But we're located in South Florida.
Robbgnarly
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#9
Quote by asb9pwns
What speakers would you guys suggest when building an avatar cab?

depends on what amp you get.
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2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
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Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
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Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
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Robbgnarly
Tab Contributor
Join date: Feb 2011
290 IQ
#10
Quote by asb9pwns
We've already recorded a full album on our own, And im not 100% sure if it's going to be small label it's under Victory Records, it's called We Are Triumphant. But we're located in South Florida.

I understand that, but if they are a diecent label, they will re-record you with a producer/engineer they like. Unless they absolutely love the sound of the album.

Another thing to note, you will never beable to own the rights to your music with a label, but you can make sure you get all publishing rights so if it is ever used, you will get paid
2002 PRS CE22
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Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
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Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
asb9pwns
Registered User
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30 IQ
#11
Quote by Robbgnarly
I understand that, but if they are a diecent label, they will re-record you with a producer/engineer they like. Unless they absolutely love the sound of the album.

Another thing to note, you will never beable to own the rights to your music with a label, but you can make sure you get all publishing rights so if it is ever used, you will get paid

Valid point there thanks for that! and we're looking into avatar cabinets, and a orange dual terror head. just need to figure out which speakers to load into the avatar cabinet to get the best sound for our style.
Katsock
Registered User
Join date: May 2010
110 IQ
#12
Another thing with cabs is you may be able to save money on a 2x12, but if depending on your travel arrangements, you it'll also save space! And it's lighter in the end. With it micd up it seems like it may be a much better option
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Addonexus408
Bay Area Thrash
Join date: Nov 2011
10 IQ
#13
I would highly recommend looking into the Egnater Tweaker 40, Blackstar HT Club 50, Line 6/Bogner DT25. Look up videos and see if they peak your interest. I have worked with all of these amps in the past and was very impressed with the tone especially for the money. An Avatar 2x12 loaded with some Eminence Red Coats would be killer.
Quote by shredder3386
Yup, Addonexus nailed it...
My band
Addonexus
Robbgnarly
Tab Contributor
Join date: Feb 2011
290 IQ
#14
you can get used jcm2000's for $600 all dayeven at guitarcenter. you can also get Marshall 1960 cabs for $250+. now they are gonna be beat up a little, but will sound killer.

There was a Mesa DC-5 head on GC used site and they only wanted $550ish ( The DC5 is similar to the Mesa Mark series)

If you look good, you may fund a Mesa single rectifier.

Marshall JCM900 DR would work just fine.

If you really want a Orange TH30, look at www.humbuckermusic.com best new price on the th30 I have seen (better than most used prices also
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
Blktiger0
The Name's Devon! ;)
Join date: Sep 2007
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#15
Quote by Robbgnarly

Marshall JCM900 DR would work just fine, although the Mk III and SL-X are better


FTFY

TS, I would go with 2x12's due to saving both money, space, and weight. The Dual Terror would be fine, although, like Robbgnarly said, you can get JCM2000's for pretty cheap used. Make sure you go with DSL's that are made after '04. TSL's and pre-'04 DSL's tend to melt on the inside.

In addition, you can get pretty cheap cabinets if you look used. I was looking at cabs on Guitar Center's used stuff yesterday, and you can get V30 and T-75 loaded 4x12's for $300 - $400 all day. Stuff like Line 6 Spider Valve cabs, Marhsall 1960 cabs, etc. I didn't really look at any 2x12's, but in my experience, they're less common and usually the good used ones are just as expensive or more expensive than similar 4x12's.
asb9pwns
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2009
30 IQ
#16
Quote by Blktiger0
FTFY

TS, I would go with 2x12's due to saving both money, space, and weight. The Dual Terror would be fine, although, like Robbgnarly said, you can get JCM2000's for pretty cheap used. Make sure you go with DSL's that are made after '04. TSL's and pre-'04 DSL's tend to melt on the inside.

In addition, you can get pretty cheap cabinets if you look used. I was looking at cabs on Guitar Center's used stuff yesterday, and you can get V30 and T-75 loaded 4x12's for $300 - $400 all day. Stuff like Line 6 Spider Valve cabs, Marhsall 1960 cabs, etc. I didn't really look at any 2x12's, but in my experience, they're less common and usually the good used ones are just as expensive or more expensive than similar 4x12's.

I'm looking on Avatars website I can build a nice cba fairly cheap im just stuck on speakers, I'm between Greenbacks or Eminence Swamp Thangs, I feel Vintage 30's won't be give us the tone we want like someone had mentioned before. Im searching used around and will continue to do so thanks guys!
Blktiger0
The Name's Devon! ;)
Join date: Sep 2007
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#17
Quote by asb9pwns
I'm looking on Avatars website I can build a nice cba fairly cheap im just stuck on speakers, I'm between Greenbacks or Eminence Swamp Thangs, I feel Vintage 30's won't be give us the tone we want like someone had mentioned before. Im searching used around and will continue to do so thanks guys!


It sounds like you have no clue what you want

No offense or anything, but you've gone between Red Coats, V30's, Greenbacks, and Swamp Thangs. Other than the first two, those are all drastically different speakers. Have you looked into Celestion G12T-75's? Those are the speakers most commonly paired with Marshall Amps. The V30's are the standard speaker for Orange amps. In addition, V30's are the industry standard speaker in general. A LOT of players use them for many different genres. What I heard in that song made me think V30 immediately, but the tone you had isn't necessarily the tone you want, so I'll let you decide on that. However, Greenbacks and Swamp Thangs are practically polar opposites.
J2G
UG Member
Join date: Aug 2012
30 IQ
#18
just played your song, i like that shit... headed to your band's fb page now.
asb9pwns
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2009
30 IQ
#19
Quote by Blktiger0
It sounds like you have no clue what you want

No offense or anything, but you've gone between Red Coats, V30's, Greenbacks, and Swamp Thangs. Other than the first two, those are all drastically different speakers. Have you looked into Celestion G12T-75's? Those are the speakers most commonly paired with Marshall Amps. The V30's are the standard speaker for Orange amps. In addition, V30's are the industry standard speaker in general. A LOT of players use them for many different genres. What I heard in that song made me think V30 immediately, but the tone you had isn't necessarily the tone you want, so I'll let you decide on that. However, Greenbacks and Swamp Thangs are practically polar opposites.


You are 100% correct I have no idea what i want hahaha. In the studio we were using the vintage 30's with a valveking head, just added a mxr noise gate and a iabnez tube screamer and boom our tone in all of our songs im guessing i should probably just buy that gear. lol
ihartfood
Potato Faced Blind Man
Join date: Mar 2012
50 IQ
#21
Will you go used? if so:

Egnater Renegade
Mesa Single Rectifier
Marshall DSL50 JCM2000
Orange Rocker 30
Orange Thunder 30
not the dual terror.
Mesa Stiletto
Jet City JCA100/50h
maybe it was shit tubes but the last DC-5 I tried was fizzy as hell
probably shit tubes. they usually sound better
Mesa Rectoverb
asb9pwns
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2009
30 IQ
#22
Quote by ihartfood
Will you go used? if so:

Egnater Renegade
Mesa Single Rectifier
Marshall DSL50 JCM2000
Orange Rocker 30
Orange Thunder 30
not the dual terror.
Mesa Stiletto
Jet City JCA100/50h
maybe it was shit tubes but the last DC-5 I tried was fizzy as hell
probably shit tubes. they usually sound better
Mesa Rectoverb

how are those jet cities?
trashedlostfdup
diet coke fiend.
Join date: Apr 2010
1,300 IQ
#23
Quote by asb9pwns
how are those jet cities?

1 technically owned four. JCA2112RC three duds (two DOA one when i plugged it in pop. i returned them all and got an orange ppc212ob instead. i have never had an amp die on me before, and own probably a ten or so are all tube, other than that i have two hybrid amps.

i owned the JCA50H for a week or two, sounded decent. kind of fussy with speakers, the stock JCA cabs aren't that great, so i would look elsewhere, but the head is decent.

i would look for a rectoverb (based on single rectifier)
if staying on mesa's older amps, the two channel two channel dual rec, and the coveted tremoverb. either of the oranges would be fine. i have gigged my dual terror several times (not my main amp but works fine mic'd.)
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youre just being a jerk man.
Offworld92
One among the fence.
Join date: Nov 2009
520 IQ
#24
$1200 for one head/cab, or two? Where specifically are you located (like what county)? If you go used we can make that shit stretch. How soon do you need the gear? Getting amazing deals is about patience, and more importantly keeping a hawk eye on CL.
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

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asb9pwns
Registered User
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#25
Quote by Offworld92
$1200 for one head/cab, or two? Where specifically are you located (like what county)? If you go used we can make that shit stretch. How soon do you need the gear? Getting amazing deals is about patience, and more importantly keeping a hawk eye on CL.

We're in the US, I think i got all of our gear sorted i just purchased last night a used Peavy Valveking head for $180, a Fender metal head cab for $150, and i added my MXR noise gate, and bought a Ibanez Tube screamer, I use a crunch channel with high treble and put the reverb on 2 or so and use my tube screamer and it mimics our sound perfectly. couldn't be happier gonna find another valveking head for the other guitarist.
Robbgnarly
Tab Contributor
Join date: Feb 2011
290 IQ
#26
Quote by asb9pwns
We're in the US, I think i got all of our gear sorted i just purchased last night a used Peavy Valveking head for $180, a Fender metal head cab for $150, and i added my MXR noise gate, and bought a Ibanez Tube screamer, I use a crunch channel with high treble and put the reverb on 2 or so and use my tube screamer and it mimics our sound perfectly. couldn't be happier gonna find another valveking head for the other guitarist.

I would get something diffrent for your other guitarist. maybe something more british flavored like a Peavey Windsor if you can deal with a one ch amp. Peavey has an older amp called the VTM that is really good (it is a hot rodded JCM800 circut)

You may want to check out the Bugera 1990 if you need 2 ch for guitar. The 1990's based on the Marshall JCM900. I haven't heard of one of them breaking down, it was always the 333/6260 series that had the problems.

The Jet City JCA50h/100h is also worth a good look.
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
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Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
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asb9pwns
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2009
30 IQ
#27
Quote by Robbgnarly
I would get something diffrent for your other guitarist. maybe something more british flavored like a Peavey Windsor if you can deal with a one ch amp. Peavey has an older amp called the VTM that is really good (it is a hot rodded JCM800 circut)

You may want to check out the Bugera 1990 if you need 2 ch for guitar. The 1990's based on the Marshall JCM900. I haven't heard of one of them breaking down, it was always the 333/6260 series that had the problems.

The Jet City JCA50h/100h is also worth a good look.

What's wrong with running two Valvekings?
Blktiger0
The Name's Devon! ;)
Join date: Sep 2007
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#28
Quote by asb9pwns
What's wrong with running two Valvekings?


It's usually better to have at least slightly different tone for each guitarist to distinguish between them and add variety to the mix. If you both sound basically the same, it's gonna be hard to tell who is who when you're playing and it'll be hard to tell if you're both cutting through. You're gonna be fighting to fill basically the same exact spot inthe mix with each guitarist.

I mean, with some amps, you can switch up the EQ and other settings to distinguish, but that still doesn't always work, and with a Valveking, it perobably won't be very effective.

I mean, Mark Morton and Willie Adler used to both use Mark V's with the main difference being that Willie used less mids and more Gain. Now, though, Mark has switched to the Royal Atlantic, which I can attest sounds much better for them live.

In my band, I use an Egnater Vengeance and our other gutiarist uses a Mesa Rectoverb. Two very different sounds.

It just makes your life easier when it comes to the mix.
Robbgnarly
Tab Contributor
Join date: Feb 2011
290 IQ
#29
Quote by asb9pwns
What's wrong with running two Valvekings?

Blktiger0 pretty much hit it on the head.

I play in several bands and have been giging/touring for over 12yrs. when both guitarist have the same amp the sound gets boring. Currently I use a Marshall JCM DSL and our other guitarist uses a Mesa Dual Rectifier, each amp complements the other very good.

And like Blktiger0 also said you can just EQ them diffrently, but you will still sound very similar.
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Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
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GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
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ikey_
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2009
370 IQ
#30
well they give you celections for like 70 bucks at avatar price which is about as good as it gets.

i would prefer WGS which are about that price, but if you figure a seperate purchase plus shipping it will add more money compared to getting the avatar / speakers in 1 package.

i think WGS are superior though.

yeah a DSL would suit. you pushing some decent gain with a modern voice. im not sure a windsor or a night train is voice for what you are looking for.
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Cathbard
Grumpy Old Tech
Join date: Oct 2009
240 IQ
#31
But guys, it depends on what you are going for. Both guitarists in Thin Lizzy played Les Pauls through Marshall plexis. That worked for them because they did that whole dual harmonising guitar thing. Generally speaking it's better to use different rigs, but not always.
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asb9pwns
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2009
30 IQ
#32
Quote by Cathbard
But guys, it depends on what you are going for. Both guitarists in Thin Lizzy played Les Pauls through Marshall plexis. That worked for them because they did that whole dual harmonising guitar thing. Generally speaking it's better to use different rigs, but not always.

I can see where you guys are coming from. He's the lead guitarist and is using alot of effects pedals like delays, and such thus where as im only using a noise suppressor and a tube screamer to get the tone down for rythmn.
Blktiger0
The Name's Devon! ;)
Join date: Sep 2007
360 IQ
#33
Well, if you want a more uniform tone as a band, then it won't matter much. Basically, you'll want to be more scooped than he is in the mid department and keep your tone more transparent.
asb9pwns
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2009
30 IQ
#34
Quote by Blktiger0
Well, if you want a more uniform tone as a band, then it won't matter much. Basically, you'll want to be more scooped than he is in the mid department and keep your tone more transparent.

ok so as the rythmn guitarist if i were to just keep my tone more bassy lows sort of and let him be a more higher end treble ton it would work good then? if that makes any sense lol
Blktiger0
The Name's Devon! ;)
Join date: Sep 2007
360 IQ
#35
No. You're bassist brings the bass frequencies. If you base your tone off of bass, nobody will ever heard you.

The best way to do it is to have your gain et higher and your mids set lower than his. You can vary the treble, but the most prominent frequencies for guitar are the mid frequencies.

Now, if you want, you could each get an EQ pedal (I recommend the MXR 10-Band) and dial in DIFFERENT mid frequencies. YOu can't do that with the standard 3-band on the Valveking, though.

For example, in my band, I use my 10 band to scoop out some space for our bassist and to emphasize lower-mids, as I have a darker amp. Then, our other guitarist has a brighter amp that is more based on upper-mids, plus he uses V30 speakers, which have a big upper-mid spike.

In addition, you using more gain is going to give you a little less clarity and blend you into the mix better, and him using less gain is going to give him more clarity and help him stand out a little.

So, he needs more mids, less gain, you need more gain, less mids.
asb9pwns
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2009
30 IQ
#36
Quote by Blktiger0
No. You're bassist brings the bass frequencies. If you base your tone off of bass, nobody will ever heard you.

The best way to do it is to have your gain et higher and your mids set lower than his. You can vary the treble, but the most prominent frequencies for guitar are the mid frequencies.

Now, if you want, you could each get an EQ pedal (I recommend the MXR 10-Band) and dial in DIFFERENT mid frequencies. YOu can't do that with the standard 3-band on the Valveking, though.

For example, in my band, I use my 10 band to scoop out some space for our bassist and to emphasize lower-mids, as I have a darker amp. Then, our other guitarist has a brighter amp that is more based on upper-mids, plus he uses V30 speakers, which have a big upper-mid spike.

In addition, you using more gain is going to give you a little less clarity and blend you into the mix better, and him using less gain is going to give him more clarity and help him stand out a little.

So, he needs more mids, less gain, you need more gain, less mids.

I see now, thank you for explaining that. I really appreciate that!
red.guitar
Imagine All The People
Join date: Mar 2007
160 IQ
#39
Look at the Jet City JCA series. Super cheap, and are perfect for your sound.

My band is very similar in style to yours, and I just ordered a JCA50H to go with my mesa 212 (v30s). $600 for the 50watt head, and like $300 for the 20watt, which is what I would have gotten, had they not all been sold out.

Solid amp. I played the 20H through a mesa 412 (V30's aswell) in the studio, and I fell totally in love. Check it out on youtube!!

Good Luck!
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Amps:
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Jet City JCA50H
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Peavey XXX
66' Bassman
Last edited by sheldonpardy at Dec 11, 2012,
asb9pwns
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2009
30 IQ
#40
Quote by sheldonpardy
Look at the Jet City JCA series. Super cheap, and are perfect for your sound.

My band is very similar in style to yours, and I just ordered a JCA50H to go with my mesa 212 (v30s). $600 for the 50watt head, and like $300 for the 20watt, which is what I would have gotten, had they not all been sold out.

Solid amp. I played the 20H through a mesa 412 (V30's aswell) in the studio, and I fell totally in love. Check it out on youtube!!

Good Luck!

will do!