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Spaztikko
*
Join date: Apr 2011
2,246 IQ
#1
he's being a knob. Can the community band together to make him realise the error of his ways? He may have downs.

Here's a few texts he's been sending me, so you can see where he's at.

Quotes:
look, i know my shit, okay. And if there are professionals and teachers who have the same view as me then there must be some substance in what im saying.

Why would everyone, guitar teachers and players included, be wrong about scales being derived from modes? And maybe in your opinion scales are useless if you have a good ear, but i think they are good. Especially for soloing, where you can base a recurring melody on a scale

Referencing alan's scale article

d remember what that dude said, the one who was talking about scales with random notes and accidentals and shit and giving them a name generated name? Well, its essentially that with modes, he even said that. You derive the scale from the mode. I dont care that we have been over this a million times, thats my philosophy and im staying with that because it makes the most sense to me, especially how people use them today. Or say they do.

End quotes. If you could also post some credentials for you know, shits and giggles or whatever that'd be nice. Because I want to punch him and his head in the sand.

Thank you, everyone.
Sloop John D
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2013
10 IQ
#2
I think you should stop getting so worked up over it and let your friend learn music in a way that is useful and easy for him to understand, even if it includes a study of modes.
Jehannum
Bant
Join date: Feb 2011
2,440 IQ
#4
To judge what he says I'd have to look at some examples of his modal music. Or what he thinks is modal music.
Spaztikko
*
Join date: Apr 2011
2,246 IQ
#6
Yngwie, and when he sick shredz in phrygian in e minor.
That level.
TommyGunUk
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2009
380 IQ
#8
Im the mode-mingler in question, here. Regardless of how deep my face is in the sand, i reckon modes are useable. And no, I dont get my modes from Yngwie Malmsteen, I got a sheet in my music class about modes where they were used as particular types of scales, and examples of them, which is where I learned about them from
TommyGunUk
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2009
380 IQ
#10
And so, with banter like this carrying on for like, 3 months, we appeal to the internet
Spaztikko
*
Join date: Apr 2011
2,246 IQ
#12
I think you're adopted and haven't helped anyone.

Tommy, read the stickys.
AlanHB
Godin's Resident Groupie
Join date: Aug 2008
1,703 IQ
#13
Wassup thanks for reading my article, and for picking up on my point about the use of modal names was as useful as a random word generator.

But that said you can call certain patterns of accidentals modes if you like. You can also call them ballsacks. However in a minor or major key they will function neither as modes nor ballsacks.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
Sloop John D
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2013
10 IQ
#14
Quote by Spaztikko
I think you're adopted and haven't helped anyone.

Tommy, read the stickys.


In the study of music, there are many methods, techniques, and theories that a person can learn. Depending on what you're interested in playing, some of these techniques and theories can be highly relevant, and some may be completely irrelevant, but I would hesitate to say that any of it is completely useless.

If a study of modes is helping your friend wrap his head around music and play some interesting stuff, then I don't see the point in discouraging him.
Jehannum
Bant
Join date: Feb 2011
2,440 IQ
#15
Quote by TommyGunUk
Im the mode-mingler in question, here. Regardless of how deep my face is in the sand, i reckon modes are useable. And no, I dont get my modes from Yngwie Malmsteen, I got a sheet in my music class about modes where they were used as particular types of scales, and examples of them, which is where I learned about them from


Modes are more than scales. They have to be used in a restricted way to achieve a modal sound. The restrictions are:

i. you have to establish and maintain the correct modal tonic (or there will be no modal sound)

ii. you can't alter the notes of the mode (without destroying the modal sound)

i. is difficult to achieve because every mode shares its notes with a relative key which invariably has a stronger pull to its tonic. If the tonic changes there's no modality; you're just in a key. This rules out complex harmony because most harmonic progression leads to a key centre. You're limited to drones and vamps.

There are a couple of wrong ideas often associated with modes which are so common I think it's useful to give them names:

i. the relative modes fallacy is that you can solo a different mode of the same scale over each chord of a progression. E.g. C Ionian of C major, F Lydian over F major, etc. in a I-IV-V progression. This is wrong. There is no modal usage here whatsoever. You'll just be playing in C major.

ii. the parallel modes fallacy: you can play modally over any progression in a key. Wrong. Whatever solo you'll play the music will be in the key of the harmony - with accidentals.
travislausch
UG's Haibane Renmei fan.
Join date: Apr 2002
6,510 IQ
#17
I'm not 100% sure what we're arguing here, but regardless of what comes first, modes are just as useful as any other piece of music theory: only as useful as the imagination containing that knowledge.

If learning modes will expand his creativity and give him a new voice with which to make better music than he has, why stop him? Because of your personal prejudices?
I can't help wondering things like "What's Bob Dylan doing now? Is he at home, eating a big bowl of corn flakes just like I will, later on when I return back home?"
TheHydra
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2011
421 IQ
#18
Quote by travislausch
I'm not 100% sure what we're arguing here, but regardless of what comes first, modes are just as useful as any other piece of music theory: only as useful as the imagination containing that knowledge.

If learning modes will expand his creativity and give him a new voice with which to make better music than he has, why stop him? Because of your personal prejudices?

It has a 99% chance of doing exactly the opposite of that. Many people here can tell you that from personal experience. Myself included.

And no, I'd argue that modes are very close to the bottom of musical usefulness for most modern purposes. Unless you're really, really into medieval music.
Last edited by TheHydra at Feb 18, 2013,
cdgraves
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2013
43 IQ
#20
Modes are just other scales, guys. It's not that they're stupid, there's just nothing special about them.

The problem is that a lot of guitarists think modes are a central melodic concept. They are not. The arpeggio should be your basic melodic building block. Everything you do melodically must relate to the underlying harmony.

Because everything has to relate to the harmony, everything you play will be based on it. If you are in C major and playing over a C major chord, nothing you do will be anything but some combination of C major (unless you're using accidentals). Staring a lick on E doesn't make it E phrygian - it's just C major lick starting on E.

That said, you can use modes harmonically by basing your chord structure on them (like using a Imaj7 - Vmaj7 vamp) and play appropriately to the harmony. I'd call that a good, creative use of modality.
Last edited by cdgraves at Feb 18, 2013,
Freepower
v It's Back! :D
Join date: Feb 2004
3,277 IQ
#21
Quote by Spaztikko
xiaoxi, aeolianwolf, jazz rock, freepower, i beseech thee.


Beseech me and I will come.

Quote by TommyGunUk
Im the mode-mingler in question, here. Regardless of how deep my face is in the sand, i reckon modes are useable. And no, I dont get my modes from Yngwie Malmsteen, I got a sheet in my music class about modes where they were used as particular types of scales, and examples of them, which is where I learned about them from


Well, "usable" is the key work here. You can use the names to explain or describe note choice, and that's very useful. Lots of jazz colleges (or jazz influenced teachers, including myself) use modal names to describe what notes people play over chords or progressions.

However, modal music in it's original form is completely unrelated to this.

So, in short

Learning a bunch of useful scales and calling them modes - absolutely fine as far as I'm concerned. As long as you understand you're playing in a key and very rarely a mode.


ED: and as UG resources on the subject of modes, https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=187159

Corwinoid really knows his shit.
Mister A.J.
Ker-Blang-a-Woggle
Join date: May 2011
318 IQ
#22
Modes are useless because we have keys. Although, I kinda wish we could keep the names of the modes in the key system at least. They sound more bad-ass than 'major' or 'minor.'
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TommyGunUk
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2009
380 IQ
#24
I am aware that modal music means that it has no key, I had to study Serialism and Expressionism and what have you. I'm also aware that once you use a mode in a key, it ceases to be a mode. What he and i are arguing about is whether or not modes are completely useless or not. I don't think they are, because of the fact that I can use them as a scale if i want to. When being given tips on composing, we were told to do all sorts of things with a melody when we were stuck;
Play it backwards
Reflect it in a mirror
Sequence it up or down in pitch
Take bits of it and repeat them
Double it up
The list goes on. When you look at all these, using modes as a base from which you derive scales or what have you isn't so strange
GuitarMunky
I play guitar n stuff
Join date: May 2007
115 IQ
#25
Quote by Spaztikko
he's being a knob. Can the community band together to make him realise the error of his ways? He may have downs.

Here's a few texts he's been sending me, so you can see where he's at.

Quotes:
look, i know my shit, okay. And if there are professionals and teachers who have the same view as me then there must be some substance in what im saying.

Why would everyone, guitar teachers and players included, be wrong about scales being derived from modes? And maybe in your opinion scales are useless if you have a good ear, but i think they are good. Especially for soloing, where you can base a recurring melody on a scale

Referencing alan's scale article

d remember what that dude said, the one who was talking about scales with random notes and accidentals and shit and giving them a name generated name? Well, its essentially that with modes, he even said that. You derive the scale from the mode. I dont care that we have been over this a million times, thats my philosophy and im staying with that because it makes the most sense to me, especially how people use them today. Or say they do.

End quotes. If you could also post some credentials for you know, shits and giggles or whatever that'd be nice. Because I want to punch him and his head in the sand.

Thank you, everyone.


Don't be stupid, scales and modes are completely useful. Stop giving your friend advice based on advice that you got on the internet, you're in most cases doing more harm than good.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 18, 2013,
Life Is Brutal
Master of Modulation
Join date: Jun 2008
3,873 IQ
#27
Don't be stupid, scales and modes are completely useful. Stop giving your friend advice based on advice that you got on the internet, you're in most cases doing more harm than good.


Pretty much this.

I hate it when people say that scales/modes/keys are useless, and anyone who has given them up has already learned them and moved past them. It doesn't make them useless and they provide a solid basis for learning theory and how music functions.

Sure you can think of music as just pitch in time which is how the advocates of scales/keys are useless write music, but without an understanding of resolution and function you're going to be shooting in the dark.

A dozen monkeys could type out all of Shakespeare's works, but it would take them an incredibly long time because they have no direction and no idea how to do it.

Modes are useless the majority of the time though, I would prefer if most people forgot they existed.

But from starting off in theory, Scales and keys are extremely helpful for a foundation.
primusfan
Conspiracy Music Theorist
Join date: Mar 2004
5,337 IQ
#28
i'm going to preface this by saying i can only speak on this from a jazz perspective:

i don't think anyone thinks scales are completely useless per se; i think a lot of the advocates (myself included) against chord-scale theory and the like just use strong language to counteract how engrained the CST method has become.

they're not dumb and useless. it's easy for a beginner when you say "when you see this chord, this is the suggested scale" rather than "here's your tonic and you have 12 notes to choose from. just play what you hear in your head." well a lot of times they don't hear anything. hell, a lot of times i barely hear anything.

now i feel it's kind of a cookie cutter approach to playing music and it's fast tracking what is typically a lifelong process. the reason people argue against scales is it CAN hinder the development of musicality. if your practice regimen is strictly scales and such, that's not going to help you. but to say they're dumb and useless is dumb and useless.

this is how i utilize scales:

i have a few different exercises written out in my notation program. one is a bunch of different scales (major, dorian, mixolydian, HW dim, WH dim, dim whole tone, lydian, etc) in one particular key. along with that, i have an accompanying organ part playing the chord it "corresponds with." sometimes i'll just take one particular scale and do it through a cycle of fourths. i hit play and play along with the scale and accompanying organ. this helps with a few things (on bass):

1) technical exercise/dexterity
2) fingerboard knowledge (saying note names as i play them)
3) hearing how the notes of a particular scale sound with a particular chord
4) intonation. i record myself playing and try best to match my intonation to the computer
5) timing. in a similar respect, i can see how well i hold a tempo and where i deviate from it
6) it's time at the instrument doing something. anytime you're doing that, it's positive.

and after i do that, i try to just transcribe or play some bach or sight read or some shit. and i don't really think about it while playing or analyzing.

run through your scales/arpeggios. but don't think about it too much when you're doing it. i mean you can think about it. but meh. to each their own. to me scales and to some degree arpeggios (although i put a bit more stock in them than scales) are like push ups and weight training. doing them in thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths, sevenths, octaves, tenths, one/two/three octaves. playing them broken up into phrases of three (do re mi, re mi fa, mi fa sol, etc) or fours (tetrachords).

when a linebacker plays football, he's not thinking about push ups and leg presses. he's not even thinking about drills in practice. he's done that training so he doesn't have to think about it. he has his assignment (man/zone/whatever) but ultimately it comes down to just playing his position with a combination of talent, instinct, experience and that reserve of exercising and physical training he's built up.

scales are for the shed just like push ups are for the gym. what would happen if that guy's supposed to get out on the field and run a blitz. then, instead, when the ball's snapped he just drops to the ground doing crunches? when it's time to train, train. when it's time to play, play.

and even still, i would still recommend the majority of practice be focused on training your ear with intervals. just listen to phrases and play them back. playing a note and knowing where you want to go based on the interval you hear is basically what i do. and sometimes i'm wrong. but when i'm working at it regularly, i get less wrong.

TL;DR scales are not dumb and useless, but only if you put them in the right context of practice.
#DTWD
Last edited by primusfan at Feb 18, 2013,
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
Join date: Oct 2009
3,411 IQ
#29
Quote by Life Is Brutal
Pretty much this.

I hate it when people say that scales/modes/keys are useless, and anyone who has given them up has already learned them and moved past them. It doesn't make them useless and they provide a solid basis for learning theory and how music functions.

Sure you can think of music as just pitch in time which is how the advocates of scales/keys are useless write music, but without an understanding of resolution and function you're going to be shooting in the dark.

A dozen monkeys could type out all of Shakespeare's works, but it would take them an incredibly long time because they have no direction and no idea how to do it.

Modes are useless the majority of the time though, I would prefer if most people forgot they existed.

But from starting off in theory, Scales and keys are extremely helpful for a foundation.

Who has said that keys are useless? I think everybody here is telling everybody not to think in scales/modes but keys. Keys are pretty useful. If you understand keys well, you don't need scales, let alone modes.

Everybody always thinks "what scale [insert a guitarist] uses" when the correct answer could be found by looking at the key of the song. I actually want to get rid of scales. They kind of make you think: "now I'm going to play major scale, now I switch to mixolydian." People should concentrate more on chords they are playing over (and of course not to think in C Am Dm G = ionian aeolian dorian mixolydian - that's so limiting).
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

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primusfan
Conspiracy Music Theorist
Join date: Mar 2004
5,337 IQ
#30
(and of course not to think in C Am Dm G = ionian aeolian dorian mixolydian ....


lol definitely not. that's such a mind**** when you've only got two beats per chord, especially when each of those is just a C major scale. so much easier to just think "C major for two bars" than "each mode for two beats."
#DTWD
Last edited by primusfan at Feb 18, 2013,
Life Is Brutal
Master of Modulation
Join date: Jun 2008
3,873 IQ
#31
Who has said that keys are useless? I think everybody here is telling everybody not to think in scales/modes but keys. Keys are pretty useful. If you understand keys well, you don't need scales, let alone modes.


Xaoxai (I spent like 5 minutes trying to type his name, its driving me insane) and some of the other higher ups on this forum have that perspective and I agree with it, although having beginners in theory learn Scales and keys is probably one of the better ways to get a foundation in it.
EmilGD
Unregistered User
Join date: Feb 2008
93 IQ
#32
X i a o X i

"shao shi"

And are you sure about the regs thinking keys are useless? I was pretty sure it was the other way around...
Quote by Xiaoxi
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Woffelz
Mmmm...donuts...
Join date: Apr 2009
3,342 IQ
#33
Modes bore me so I avoid them.
Woffelz

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Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#34
Quote by GuitarMunky
Don't be stupid, scales and modes are completely useful. Stop giving your friend advice based on advice that you got on the internet, you're in most cases doing more harm than good.



e: hold up hold up hold up, i don't think any of the regs here has ever said keys are useless.
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Last edited by Hail at Feb 18, 2013,
crispykids
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2009
134 IQ
#35
Switching accidentals in and out is always a good way to get a different sound and then adding or subtracting notes will do that too. It's a method of trial but its fun because of the discovery aspect; at least for me anyway.
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
Join date: Feb 2008
722 IQ
#36
Quote by Spaztikko
he's being a knob. Can the community band together to make him realise the error of his ways? He may have downs.

Here's a few texts he's been sending me, so you can see where he's at.

Quotes:
look, i know my shit, okay. And if there are professionals and teachers who have the same view as me then there must be some substance in what im saying.

Why would everyone, guitar teachers and players included, be wrong about scales being derived from modes? And maybe in your opinion scales are useless if you have a good ear, but i think they are good. Especially for soloing, where you can base a recurring melody on a scale

Referencing alan's scale article

d remember what that dude said, the one who was talking about scales with random notes and accidentals and shit and giving them a name generated name? Well, its essentially that with modes, he even said that. You derive the scale from the mode. I dont care that we have been over this a million times, thats my philosophy and im staying with that because it makes the most sense to me, especially how people use them today. Or say they do.

End quotes. If you could also post some credentials for you know, shits and giggles or whatever that'd be nice. Because I want to punch him and his head in the sand.

Thank you, everyone.

You are both knobs, I mean cunts.
axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
Join date: Aug 2006
2,471 IQ
#37
To suggest knowledge and application of anything musical is a waste of time only shows the short-sightedness of the person who suggests it.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#38
Quote by axemanchris
To suggest knowledge and application of anything musical is a waste of time only shows the short-sightedness of the person who suggests it.

CT


that's implying scales are musical
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primusfan
Conspiracy Music Theorist
Join date: Mar 2004
5,337 IQ
#39
Quote by Hail
that's implying scales are musical


just to clarify: we're talking about a sequence of ordered musical notes, not the things on reptiles.
#DTWD
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#40
Quote by primusfan
just to clarify: we're talking about a sequence of ordered musical notes, not the things on reptiles.


dragons arent reptiles they're dovah get it right ******
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

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I want to be Hail when I grow up.