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#1
I'm a guitarist. I'm continuing to study jazz in the capital city high school! Since we only have classical in my country, and jazz appears only for high school, and for college you have to go out of the country, I had no particular jazz knowledge! I knew how to impro and everything, but not with jazz scales! I took lessons (like everyone before their audition), and now I know:

- mixolydian 
- mixolydian b6
- dorian

These are the scales that I have complete control over! I'm kind of impatient, and I want to learn now (there's 4 more months till high school ;(  
What scales should I learn to improvise? I was improvising in F7, which had F7 (mixolydian), Bb7 (mixo), C7 (mixo), D7 (mixo b6), Gm7(dorian). Should I learn locrian? There's a Bdim7, and I think locrian is the scale for it? Anyways, which scales should I learn?
#2
Don't learn modes.

Learn major scales in all 12 keys, all over your instrument.

Learn all kinds of 7th chords (dom7, maj7, min7, dim7, m7b5)

Listen to lots of jazz.

Learn melodies (jazz standards), along with chord sequences.

Learn a few dom7 alterations (7b9, 7#9, 7#11 etc)

Forget about modes (did I say that?).  Ignore chord-scale theory.

Just my $0.02.  I've only been playing jazz for around 40 years, what do I know...
#3
I agree with jonriley..don't bother with modes right now..learn arpeggios of all chords in ALL keys and maj and min scales in ALL keys--ascending AND descending..

yes-- learn tunes -- jazz standards--you will learn many chords, progressions and melodies

one scale you should learn and experiment with = the diminished scale..do some research on it..it is quite a treat..
play well

wolf
#4
Thank you! I already know drop 2 shapes of dom7, so I can play any dom7 in any position without any struggle! I also know the blues pentatonic (and regular pentatonic) in all forms! So now, if I understood correctly:

- major and minor scales (all of them) all over the neck
- (I already know 7th chords) dom7 alterations (and of course listen to jazz!)
- diminished scale!

thank you guys! 
#5
coIja 
Quote by coIja
Thank you! I already know drop 2 shapes of dom7, so I can play any dom7 in any position without any struggle! I also know the blues pentatonic (and regular pentatonic) in all forms! So now, if I understood correctly:

- major and minor scales (all of them) all over the neck
- (I already know 7th chords) dom7 alterations (and of course listen to jazz!)
- diminished scale!

thank you guys! 

Don't forget the TUNES.  Melodies are the best way of practising scales - they're more fun, and they show you how well (or not) you know all the scale positions.  Practising scales up and down is only what you do when first learning their positions (and for finger exercise).  When your fingers know their places, start playing melodies and melodic patterns (including chord arpeggios).  Otherwise, when you improvise, you'll fall into noodling up and down your scale, which is boring.

And don't forget the other kinds of 7th chord. There are SIX basic types, and it's useful to understand them via their usual function, as follows:

Maj7 (maj triad + maj7) = I and IV in major key; III and VI in minor key.  Includes 6, add9, 69, maj9, maj13

7 (dom7) (maj triad + min7) = V in  major and minor key (includes various altered types*)

min7 (min triad + min7) = ii, vi and iii in major key; iv in minor key

m(maj7) (min triad + maj7) = i in minor key - includes m6, m(add9), m69, m(maj9).  (m(maj13) less likely.)

Dim7 (dim triad + dim7) = vii in minor key, often borrowed for major key  (can be used in a couple of other ways too)

m7b5 (half-diminished) (dim triad + min7) = ii in minor key

* Altered dom7s acting as V include 7b9, 7#9, 7b5b9, 7#5#9, 7b5b13, etc. - more common in minor keys, but can be used in major.  Plain major key V7s include 7, 9, 13, 7sus4, 9sus4, 13sus4.

Dom7-type chords are frequently used as bII (tritone subs) in major or minor keys, and bVII in major keys.  These are usually lydian dominant types: 7#11, 9#11, 13#11.  Don't confuse these with the other kinds of altered dom7.  E.g., "E7alt" (with altered 5th and altered 9th) and Bb7#11 will both resolve to A or Am.  Much less likely to Eb or Ebm; that would be Bb7alt or E13#11.

Remember that V7, ii7 and viidim7 chords are often used in secondary capacity.  
E.g., a G7 or Bdim7 chord can go to  (or Cm) whatever key the C or Cm is used in.  And a Dm7 or Dm7b5 can precede the G7, regardless of the key of the following C or Cm.  (If this is confusing, google "secondary dominant".)

The above is all concerning TONAL harmony - progressions in major and minor "keys", capable of analysis with roman numerals (as shown); the way all jazz standards were written up to the 1960s.  Jazz also often employs MODAL harmony, which is mostly about quartal chords (built  mostly in 4ths instead of 3rds), and usually named as various sus types, or m11s.  You can recognise modal jazz by (1) the long periods spent on one chord (usually a 7sus or m11), (2) changes to chords from a different key, often the same type as the previous chord.  (Obviously this is all a gross oversimplification and generalisation... )

And if any of the above is confusing... don't worry!  Just keep playing the tunes (and listening to good jazz).  The tunes make their own sense.
Last edited by jonriley64 at Apr 9, 2017,
#7
Thank you guys! And opiekundps2015, of course I want to be a professional guitarist, that's why I'm continuing to study in high school :P
#8
You probably know these titles


Jazzology: The Encyclopedia of Jazz Theory for All Musicians Robert Rawlins 
The Jazz Theory Book Mark Levine
Thesaurus of Scales And Melodic Patterns - Nicolas Slonimsky
Twelve-Tone Improvisation: A Method for Using Tone Rows in Jazz John O'Gallagher
The Triadic Chromatic Approach George Garzone

but if not then do it
#9
opiekundps2015 Don't  know them, since I never played jazz before as I said, so thanks for the recommendation!!
Last edited by coIja at Apr 10, 2017,
#10
I'm still going to say - lose the emphasis on scales. Seriously.  You know enough scales already.  (Obviously you need to be familiar with your instrument, and achieve technical mastery, but the C major scale is enough to map the fretboard.)

Learn chords, tunes and chord sequences.

I'd also advice you not to get Mark Levine's 'Jazz Theory Book'.  It's a great read, but I wasted a few years believing it all.  
It's a good book if you're already quite experienced in jazz, at least the older forms (swing, bebop etc), because it introduces you to concepts that were invented  later. 
But most of those make no sense if you're playing the kinds of jazz standards that jazz students normally cut their teeth on.  Even with the decades of playing experience I had (some jazz, lots of blues and rock) before reading it, I was seduced by its apparent authority.  The scales fell from my eyes later.  

Jazzology is better for the beginner to jazz - although it's a bit of a dull read.

Slonimsky?  Aaagh...  I'd never seen this book, until I checked it out online,  It's even worse than I feared. You can find PDFs of it for free online, to see if it sets your pulses racing...

Improvisation is really very easy (about 100 times easier than the theory and scale books would have you believe), once you know the basic principles: embellish the melody, and work from chord tones.  Trouble is, nobody would be able to make any money from selling such a simple idea, hence all the other BS flying around.   (The great jazz masters never went to jazz schools or read jazz books. Those things didn't exist.)
That's why studying songs - NOT theory or scale books - is the best lesson.  You want to spend money on a book?  Buy a Real Book.

Don't take my word for it,  Listen to some bona fide jazz gurus, like Hal Galper or Mulgrew Miller:

Last edited by jonriley64 at Apr 10, 2017,
#11
Quote by jonriley64
I'm still going to say - lose the emphasis on scales. Seriously.  You know enough scales already.  (Obviously you need to be familiar with your instrument, and achieve technical mastery, but the C major scale is enough to map the fretboard.)

Learn chords, tunes and chord sequences.

I'd also advice you not to get Mark Levine's 'Jazz Theory Book'.  It's a great read, but I wasted a few years believing it all.  
It's a good book if you're already quite experienced in jazz, at least the older forms (swing, bebop etc), because it introduces you to concepts that were invented  later. 
But most of those make no sense if you're playing the kinds of jazz standards that jazz students normally cut their teeth on.  Even with the decades of playing experience I had (some jazz, lots of blues and rock) before reading it, I was seduced by its apparent authority.  The scales fell from my eyes later.  

Jazzology is better for the beginner to jazz - although it's a bit of a dull read.

Slonimsky?  Aaagh...  I'd never seen this book, until I checked it out online,  It's even worse than I feared. You can find PDFs of it for free online, to see if it sets your pulses racing...

Improvisation is really very easy (about 100 times easier than the theory and scale books would have you believe), once you know the basic principles: embellish the melody, and work from chord tones.  Trouble is, nobody would be able to make any money from selling such a simple idea, hence all the other BS flying around.   (The great jazz masters never went to jazz schools or read jazz books. Those things didn't exist.)
That's why studying songs - NOT theory or scale books - is the best lesson.  You want to spend money on a book?  Buy a Real Book.

Don't take my word for it,  Listen to some bona fide jazz gurus, like Hal Galper or Mulgrew Miller:


Thanks but as I said, I got accepted to jazz guitar high school, and there's 4 more months, and I'm impatient! I just want to learn some material! I don't really need something that I'll use for life (but of course I appreciate everything you tell me), since I'll probably get to know them in high school! I just want to learn some material, so the things that the other guy listed are good! Thanks!
#13
I played jazz in high school and always felt my improv was lacking...and jonriley64 is right!! It's because I didn't listen to the tunes or learn melodies! I was trying to take a purely theoretical approach to something that you can only learn by doing.
So of course knowing the theory will help, but try to learn the tunes and even copy other guitarists' solos... Only then will "Locrian" really have any meaning
Last edited by tylerguitar75 at Apr 12, 2017,
#14
Quote by tylerguitar75
I played jazz in high school and always felt my improv was lacking...and jonriley64 is right!! It's because I didn't listen to the tunes or learn melodies! I was trying to take a purely theoretical approach to something that you can only learn by doing.
So of course knowing the theory will help, but try to learn the tunes and even copy other guitarists' solos... Only then will "Locrian" really have any meaning

Thanks! 
#15
Quote by opiekundps2015
All  major, minor, diminished augmented, symmetric,eight tone,bebop etc etc
If you want to be a professional guitarist or just few if you want to be an amateur forever.


nobody is ever going to say, "hey, i need to pay you to play this material for me on my record. you can do whatever you want and improvise as long as you know all your scales"

even in jazz, you really shouldn't be thinking in scales unless you're just trying to hack your way through not knowing the chord tones and melodies in a piece
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
#16
The basic 6 chord families and the intervals you can play/superimpose in them is crucial. I wouldn't consider myself a top jazz player but when i improvise i think in terms of chord tones and connecting the melody. 

Learning the head of a standard is always a good starting point to find your way around. 

don't be afraid of the tense sounding chords, especially dominants, they're the key for that ''jazzy'' sound. b9, #5. get the b5 (bii) sub like it's second nature, especially returning to I

get used to seeing II-V's instead of just V's everywhere, but do

in a way wherever there's a dominant chord, that's where all the fun is. you can twist a simple blues progression like I IV V into a I VI ii bii and it's basically the same. 

be mindful of the bass notes when playing with a bass player. he decides where you go. avoid roots but of course use your ears!

I know it's not what you asked for, but it's much easier seeing each chord as its own territory when improvising over a tune than just learning cold scales. this way you learn to appreciate the note for what it is and not just a technical flurry of outside playing. outside playing is basically substitution in a linear fashion (one note after the other) instead of vertical (all notes at the same time) like playing a Eb7b9 Arpeggio over an A7 chord is just a tritone sub.

from any given root you should be able to see the 3rd, 5th and 7th right off the bat. if you don't see that, GET TO IT RIGHT NOW. 'cause when you see those 3 intervals (major and minor of course) you also see all the shortcuts eventually, like the b9 being a half step up from the root, the 6th being a half step down from the minor 7th. the #11 a half step down from the 5th. the 3rd 5th and 7th are the money notes. the others are embelishment and not really tones you'd want to stay too long on, useful leading to or from a stable interval.

the more instruments there are in your ensemble, the more ambiguous you'll want to be with your choice of chords if you're accompanying. i'm not saying to play suspended or to avoid thirds. but know that playing just the root, 5th and b7th, that's a nice little basic chord that can fit in both major and minor 'environments'. figure out shortcuts like these that allow you to move up and down the different inversions of a given chord, so you're not just pumping out a min7 for all 4 beats.

like a basic example, not really taking mind of the melody, but you could easily play 1 b3b7 on beat one, then b3 9 5 and then 5 b7 4 and b7 1 4. that's 4 nice little shells that live in a minor environment that moves your root note up over a minor 7th arp while also providing horn like stabs. nothing stops you from moving the bass note in half steps on its own between the chord stabs either.

hope i made sense with all of this...  what i'm saying is, scales are just chords played one note at a time. don't learn both. learn your intervals and chords on your instrument by heart, it's all the same thing. don't learn the same thing twice by giving it a different name! 
#17
Quote by coIja
I knew how to impro and everything, but not with jazz scales!

These are the scales that I have complete control over!

I can play any dom7 in any position without any struggle!

I also know the blues pentatonic (and regular pentatonic) in all forms!

- major and minor scales (all of them) all over the neck

- (I already know 7th chords) dom7 alterations

- diminished scale!

Thanks but as I said, I got accepted to jazz guitar high school, and there's 4 more months, and I'm impatient! I just want to learn some material! I don't really need something that I'll use for life...

You say you want to be a professional guitarist but don't want to do what it takes. You ask for advice but reject it.
You describe your playing with "everything", "complete control", "any position", "in all forms", "all over the neck",
as if pulled from an advertisement for a guitar method. Well, even excellent guitarists just don't ever talk like that.
Your attitude and approach sounds like "teaching to the test"; the result may be an apparent surface, hollow inside.
Quote by reverb66
I'm pretty sure the Bible requires that you play through a tube amp in Texas.
#19
Quote by PlusPaul
You say you want to be a professional guitarist but don't want to do what it takes. You ask for advice but reject it.
You describe your playing with "everything", "complete control", "any position", "in all forms", "all over the neck",
as if pulled from an advertisement for a guitar method. Well, even excellent guitarists just don't ever talk like that.
Your attitude and approach sounds like "teaching to the test"; the result may be an apparent surface, hollow inside.

Wait wait wait... What the hell are you talking about? First of all, some of those quotes are out of contaxt. Let me explain:

1st quote: I knew how to improvise, but not with jazz scales, meaning that I knew how to improvise in minor pentatonic, but not with mixolydian...
2nd quote: I listed 3 scales (mixolydian, mixolydian b6, dorian) which I have complete control over - meaning that I know how to improvise with them without any struggle
3rd quote: I said that I can play dom7 inversions through the whole neck, so that there's no problem with those chords
4th quote: I know blues and minor pentatonic over the whole neck
5th quote: I was repeating ADVICE THAT I GOT! I tried to make it clear WHAT I HAVE TO LEARN. I do not know all minor and major scales all over  the neck, I just tried to make it clear WHAT I HAVE TO LEARN. You took this out of context. I was listing things that I have to learn, so I was taking advice not rejecting it.
6th quote: as I said I know dom7 chords and their inversions
7th quote: Again, listed the things that I have to learn, taken out of context
8th quote: I thanked them by giving me advice that I ACCEPTED, and said that I'm impatient AND WANT TO LEARN AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

Now, tell me where I said that I don't want to do what it takes. Tell me where I rejected advice. I listed things that I know. I don't know about you, but if someone wants to teach me something, he needs to know what I can already do. If a professional guitarist is taking lessons, should he tell the tutor what he knows? Or is he just going to listen to the tutor explaining stuff that he already knows (I'm not reffering myself as a professional guitarist, this was just an example).

Please go away from my thread with your ignorance, becasue I don't need people like you for advice
#20
Quote by sebediah
The basic 6 chord families and the intervals you can play/superimpose in them is crucial. I wouldn't consider myself a top jazz player but when i improvise i think in terms of chord tones and connecting the melody. 

Learning the head of a standard is always a good starting point to find your way around. 

don't be afraid of the tense sounding chords, especially dominants, they're the key for that ''jazzy'' sound. b9, #5. get the b5 (bii) sub like it's second nature, especially returning to I

get used to seeing II-V's instead of just V's everywhere, but do

in a way wherever there's a dominant chord, that's where all the fun is. you can twist a simple blues progression like I IV V into a I VI ii bii and it's basically the same. 

be mindful of the bass notes when playing with a bass player. he decides where you go. avoid roots but of course use your ears!

I know it's not what you asked for, but it's much easier seeing each chord as its own territory when improvising over a tune than just learning cold scales. this way you learn to appreciate the note for what it is and not just a technical flurry of outside playing. outside playing is basically substitution in a linear fashion (one note after the other) instead of vertical (all notes at the same time) like playing a Eb7b9 Arpeggio over an A7 chord is just a tritone sub.

from any given root you should be able to see the 3rd, 5th and 7th right off the bat. if you don't see that, GET TO IT RIGHT NOW. 'cause when you see those 3 intervals (major and minor of course) you also see all the shortcuts eventually, like the b9 being a half step up from the root, the 6th being a half step down from the minor 7th. the #11 a half step down from the 5th. the 3rd 5th and 7th are the money notes. the others are embelishment and not really tones you'd want to stay too long on, useful leading to or from a stable interval.

the more instruments there are in your ensemble, the more ambiguous you'll want to be with your choice of chords if you're accompanying. i'm not saying to play suspended or to avoid thirds. but know that playing just the root, 5th and b7th, that's a nice little basic chord that can fit in both major and minor 'environments'. figure out shortcuts like these that allow you to move up and down the different inversions of a given chord, so you're not just pumping out a min7 for all 4 beats.

like a basic example, not really taking mind of the melody, but you could easily play 1 b3b7 on beat one, then b3 9 5 and then 5 b7 4 and b7 1 4. that's 4 nice little shells that live in a minor environment that moves your root note up over a minor 7th arp while also providing horn like stabs. nothing stops you from moving the bass note in half steps on its own between the chord stabs either.

hope i made sense with all of this...  what i'm saying is, scales are just chords played one note at a time. don't learn both. learn your intervals and chords on your instrument by heart, it's all the same thing. don't learn the same thing twice by giving it a different name! 

Thanks that was a very helpful reply (for the difference of someone else's...). When you were talking about the root, third, fifth and seventh being money notes, does  that also apply to diminished? I play the whole step half step diminished over dim7 chords, but I don't really know how to improvise with it! It was no problem with mixolydian, since it sounds good, and makes sense, but the diminished sounds weird, and it's kind of hard to improvise with it! Any ideas? 
#21
in my opinion when i speak of root, 3rd 5th and 7th, it's either major minor diminished augmented, they're always the important notes. especially the relationship you get with  the root the 7th and the 3rd. the 5th is stable and is always the first note to get kicked out of a voicing because of physical problems( you only have 4 fingers..) unless it's altered somehow. even so, all altered chords are interchangeable, depends on the melody!!

in the case of diminshed (fully diminished, not half dim which is just min7b5), any note can be the root, any note can be any of the root, b3 b5 bb7 due to the symetrical nature of the scale.

don't try too hard over diminished, just go with the feeling. there's a strong tension in the chord so personally i would just play the dim7 arp.

if you ABSOLUTELY want for some OCD reason, to play a scale run, just add a b9 to your notes, you got some sort of twisted pentatonic that'll nicely connect to the ACTUAL root, but you lose the benefits of the symmetry. 

pentatonic scale built with 1 b2 b3 b5 bb7 is fun over diminished but only if the bass player keeps a stable root. if he does what jazz bass players do, he'll move up the arpeggio and you'll lose the effect of the b2 pulling to the root because he's exploiting the symmetry of the dim7 arp. and since the bass has ALOT of significance as to how we perceive chords in the end result, it changes how you approach your single notes.

if you want to analyze the whole thing (hint: don't, just play, go for the the yoda approach, learn it all then unlearn and use the force, but here it is anyway)


Bdim7 chord is on the chart
bass player plays the following notes, quarter notes:
B D F G# 

your static Bdim7 chord now becomes (if you want to see it that way) a Bdim7, Ddim7, Fdim7, G#dim7

why? because the bass is powerful in forcing certain chords to be heard a certain way, even if the bass player is just doing an arpeggio in his head, the time he spends on each note is critical in determining how your ears perceive the harmony. a chromatic walking bass in 8th notes dilutes the strength of that bass note compared to a Cmaj7 chord with the bass on the C for 2 beats and on the E for 2 beats. your ear might perceive that as a Cmaj7 followed by a Emin7 (which is the reason why you can sub a I chord with a iii chord, common tones.. but i'm straying here..)

in that case, the smart approach is to go with the flow and just do a dim7 arp and go on to the next bar. personally i'd focus on where i want to land on the next bar (usually a dom7 chord, but it can be different, Say Bdim7 to Bb7 i'd try to land on a common tone, the b3 of B is the 3 of Bb...D for example)

now, if all the harmony on the back is static, say just a sustained note, NOW is the time to fit in all those wierd notes because the bass doesn't get in the way, it's just holding a B root so the ''harmonic power'' is yours to harness.

But the one thing i hope you're really getting in all my rambling, is that i've completely done away with the scalar approach (although in my teens i did alot of woodshedding and 3 notes per string patterns, but that's technical ability, it DOES NOT help you be musical, just like owning a makita drill doesn't make you a skilled craftsman automatically) and worked hard on my visualization of the intervals from any given note. it's beautiful because the guitar is a transposable instrument, so you only need to work with one position to unlock it all. 

tl dr:

scales are for technical, not musical, practice purposes. muscle memory and all that. 

intervallic visualization and a chord per chord approach is where the music lies.

over a dim7 chord, what you play depends on what everyone else plays. listen around you, not to you. in 2017 nobody cares if you play fast outside runs. everyone will love a memorable melody that plays on the tension and resolution though. not saying to always play it safe, but do it tastefully.

just for fun, a last tidbit

say you're playing a standard that has a min7 chord. and the melody includes the fifth, on the next repetition, play a min7b5 chord instead and replace the fifth with a b5 on the melody. 

ex,in the B section of All of Me, the Dm7 chord in the ending can be swapped with a Dm7b5 so long as you adapt the melody.

this is just the surface of all the fun things you can do.
Last edited by sebediah at Apr 17, 2017,
#22
Quote by sebediah
in my opinion when i speak of root, 3rd 5th and 7th, it's either major minor diminished augmented, they're always the important notes. especially the relationship you get with  the root the 7th and the 3rd. the 5th is stable and is always the first note to get kicked out of a voicing because of physical problems( you only have 4 fingers..) unless it's altered somehow. even so, all altered chords are interchangeable, depends on the melody!!

in the case of diminshed (fully diminished, not half dim which is just min7b5), any note can be the root, any note can be any of the root, b3 b5 bb7 due to the symetrical nature of the scale.

don't try too hard over diminished, just go with the feeling. there's a strong tension in the chord so personally i would just play the dim7 arp.

if you ABSOLUTELY want for some OCD reason, to play a scale run, just add a b9 to your notes, you got some sort of twisted pentatonic that'll nicely connect to the ACTUAL root, but you lose the benefits of the symmetry. 

pentatonic scale built with 1 b2 b3 b5 bb7 is fun over diminished but only if the bass player keeps a stable root. if he does what jazz bass players do, he'll move up the arpeggio and you'll lose the effect of the b2 pulling to the root because he's exploiting the symmetry of the dim7 arp. and since the bass has ALOT of significance as to how we perceive chords in the end result, it changes how you approach your single notes.

if you want to analyze the whole thing (hint: don't, just play, go for the the yoda approach, learn it all then unlearn and use the force, but here it is anyway)


Bdim7 chord is on the chart
bass player plays the following notes, quarter notes:
B D F G# 

your static Bdim7 chord now becomes (if you want to see it that way) a Bdim7, Ddim7, Fdim7, G#dim7

why? because the bass is powerful in forcing certain chords to be heard a certain way, even if the bass player is just doing an arpeggio in his head, the time he spends on each note is critical in determining how your ears perceive the harmony. a chromatic walking bass in 8th notes dilutes the strength of that bass note compared to a Cmaj7 chord with the bass on the C for 2 beats and on the E for 2 beats. your ear might perceive that as a Cmaj7 followed by a Emin7 (which is the reason why you can sub a I chord with a iii chord, common tones.. but i'm straying here..)

in that case, the smart approach is to go with the flow and just do a dim7 arp and go on to the next bar. personally i'd focus on where i want to land on the next bar (usually a dom7 chord, but it can be different, Say Bdim7 to Bb7 i'd try to land on a common tone, the b3 of B is the 3 of Bb...D for example)

now, if all the harmony on the back is static, say just a sustained note, NOW is the time to fit in all those wierd notes because the bass doesn't get in the way, it's just holding a B root so the ''harmonic power'' is yours to harness.

But the one thing i hope you're really getting in all my rambling, is that i've completely done away with the scalar approach (although in my teens i did alot of woodshedding and 3 notes per string patterns, but that's technical ability, it DOES NOT help you be musical, just like owning a makita drill doesn't make you a skilled craftsman automatically) and worked hard on my visualization of the intervals from any given note. it's beautiful because the guitar is a transposable instrument, so you only need to work with one position to unlock it all. 

tl dr:

scales are for technical, not musical, practice purposes. muscle memory and all that. 

intervallic visualization and a chord per chord approach is where the music lies.

over a dim7 chord, what you play depends on what everyone else plays. listen around you, not to you. in 2017 nobody cares if you play fast outside runs. everyone will love a memorable melody that plays on the tension and resolution though. not saying to always play it safe, but do it tastefully.

just for fun, a last tidbit

say you're playing a standard that has a min7 chord. and the melody includes the fifth, on the next repetition, play a min7b5 chord instead and replace the fifth with a b5 on the melody. 

ex,in the B section of All of Me, the Dm7 chord in the ending can be swapped with a Dm7b5 so long as you adapt the melody.

this is just the surface of all the fun things you can do.

Dang, this is confusing! Okay, you said go with the feelling. But the diminished scale is very weird, so basically I don't really feel it. As I said before, I felt the mixolydian. Immediatly when I heard it, because it's not confusing, and I can be very musical with it! But the diminished will take lots of work! Thanks for taking your time, I'm going to study your words now
Last edited by coIja at Apr 17, 2017,
#23
well, to be simple, just start with the diminished arpeggio first over a dim7 chord. they're usually transition chords that last at most just one bar.

of course anything is possible, but i'm going by general terms here. it's pretty easy to finger, on a single string each note is 2 frets apart (5 to 8 to 11 etc) and when you change strings move up a fret (so A dim7 you'd play 5 8 on the E, 6 9 on the A, and then you get the octave, 7 10 on D string and 8 11 on G string, then you have to skip 2 frets on the b string so it's 10 13 and 11 14 on the E string, then move your pinky to the 17th and go back down to the E string)

the whole Bass Power thing will make more sense at school, playing in an ensemble and have to fight your way with a piano player/bass player

have fun.

if you want to get a feel of the diminished chord / scale, listen to manouche jazz, django reinhart and the like, it's loaded with that sound.
#24
Quote by sebediah
well, to be simple, just start with the diminished arpeggio first over a dim7 chord. they're usually transition chords that last at most just one bar.

of course anything is possible, but i'm going by general terms here. it's pretty easy to finger, on a single string each note is 2 frets apart (5 to 8 to 11 etc) and when you change strings move up a fret (so A dim7 you'd play 5 8 on the E, 6 9 on the A, and then you get the octave, 7 10 on D string and 8 11 on G string, then you have to skip 2 frets on the b string so it's 10 13 and 11 14 on the E string, then move your pinky to the 17th and go back down to the E string)

the whole Bass Power thing will make more sense at school, playing in an ensemble and have to fight your way with a piano player/bass player

have fun.

if you want to get a feel of the diminished chord / scale, listen to manouche jazz, django reinhart and the like, it's loaded with that sound.

Thanks!
#25
coIja As jonriley says, it's really worthwhile checking out Hal Galper.  What he says makes a huge amount of sense, and breaks away from the tyranny of the "scale per chord".  That's not saying that there's some great scales out there (so long as you think of s scale as a source of notes, and not as something to be played up and down literally).  But the chord tones connected through whatever you feel like adds a lot of freedom.

A lot of time, approximations to what is deemed "correct" are used, for the aural effect they produce.  That's where a lot of fun and surprise is to be had.

If you're desperate fpr new material, learn the half-whole scale (good for jazz-blues-fusion, as a more jagged version of mixolydian), and learn the altered scale (Jazz minor 7), to set tension for leading to a minor chord a 5th below.  Or even in a groove on say Gm7, can use either Daltered every now and again, or A altered.
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Apr 17, 2017,
#26
Quote by jerrykramskoy
coIja As jonriley says, it's really worthwhile checking out Hal Galper.  What he says makes a huge amount of sense, and breaks away from the tyranny of the "scale per chord".  That's not saying that there's some great scales out there (so long as you think of s scale as a source of notes, and not as something to be played up and down literally).  But the chord tones connected through whatever you feel like adds a lot of freedom.

A lot of time, approximations to what is deemed "correct" are used, for the aural effect they produce.  That's where a lot of fun and surprise is to be had.

If you're desperate fpr new material, learn the half-whole scale (good for jazz-blues-fusion, as a more jagged version of mixolydian), and learn the altered scale (Jazz minor 7), to set tension for leading to a minor chord a 5th below.  Or even in a groove on say Gm7, can use either Daltered every now and again, or A altered.

Thanks!
#27
Another question! I'm improvising on this



In the 6th bar, there's a bdim7. Do I play the B whole half diminished over that? Because I tried, but it sounds weird to me... Or should I play the B half whole diminished?
#28
colja, sorry for making you mad.

Yes, play the B whole half diminished.
Try running it between low F to high F to get used to the sound in context with the F7 blues.
Quote by reverb66
I'm pretty sure the Bible requires that you play through a tube amp in Texas.
#30
coIja To be honest, you could ignore it, and just start playing your choice for F7 (F Mixolydian, ...).  Or play a bit of Bb7, then F Mixolydian, over the Bo7.

Bb7b9 and Bo7 are basically the same chord,  Functionally, the Bo7 (or rather Bb7b9) is resolving up a fourth to the F (as dom chords normally do).  So, you could play Bb half-whole, or Bb7b9 arpeggio, making sure you resolve to one of the chord tones in F7.  And because of  7b9's (o7's) can be moved in minor 3rds, you could also use G half-whole, G7b9 (or Db versions, or E versions).
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Apr 18, 2017,
#31
jerrykramskoy Thanks! I know I could ignore it, but this is not for practical use (well it is, but I need to know theoretically). Thanks!
#33
Quote by opiekundps2015
it sounds weird  - definition of jazz




Anyway,do You know that mixolydian scale is not really jazzy?
Check this

 "...rules and the use of broken chords to play jazz piano solos..."



Thank you for your help and for taking your time! I like your definition of jazz xD
#37
Quote by opiekundps2015
Weird for You,normal for me


From the point of view of classical harmony all jazz is a mistake
But from the standpoint of jazz harmony  , classical music is wrong 
Anyway,there are no bad notes, there is only more or less tension.

Thanks! Apparently I'm just not used to it yet! You were right, I have to listen to a lot of jazz!
#39
Quote by coIja
https://soundcloud.com/user-273126634/b-diminished

Take a listen at this. I played B whole half diminished over the Bdim7. Is that correct? Still sounds weird to me...

That's how it's supposed to sound.  (You resolved it well, too, to F major chord tones.)  
Just remember you don't have to play the whole scale.  It's a pool of notes you draw from from - beginning with the Bdim7 arpeggio.  (The other 4 are really just approach notes to those chord tones.)
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