#1
Hello,

I've been playing pentatonics and rock for years now and I really admire jazz players and the beauty of some jazz phrases

the issue is that when I start learning jazz chords, well, it just sucks since I dont have jazz culture, I dont know the songs and it just does not rings to my hears

did anybody felt the same ? how could I manage to play like this ? :

(starts at 5:44 & 7:37) one example among many

any advice ? If anybody had some great/fun method to learn this..... I am all hears :-)

thanks
Last edited by phil123456789 at May 12, 2017,
#3
It's a long slow grind.I'm currently trying to learn to play jazz and you really have to knuckle down.
You learn a chord and then learn all your options for improvising over that chord.
You can either learn the arpeggios and then the scales and learn a boat load of jazz phrases or the aproach which i think Tom Quayle(the guy in the vid) uses and learn all the intervals.Find all your roots and learn how each surrounding note relates to them in context of the chord you're playing over.
It's not just about blasting a scale but ear training and knowing the sound of all your intervals.
The guy in the vid was jazz trained and then turned to modern fusion.
It takes years.Many people will never get to his standard.
#4
EyeballPaul ok but what scales are we talking about ? if it's not pentatonic nor major/minor scales(intervals?) ?
I really have no clue

also I really prefer what he's playing in the above video (more classical, like ghilbi anime sort of mood) rather than fusion, I am really not into fusion at all

how do I play the one in the first video ?

found this one : gorgeous :
Last edited by phil123456789 at May 13, 2017,
#5
phil123456789I honestly don't know enough to explain it properly.I'm learning myself.
It's all about learning which tones relate to the chord you're playing over.
Jazz guys mainly use the arpeggios(chord tones) and the modes of the major,melodic minor and harmonic minor scales.
You analyse a chord and find all the 'good' notes.
The intervalic approach is to find your root note and then each note of the major scale in designated a number with the root being number 1.
Major chords for instance are made up of a root,third,fifth and then whatever embellishments you want.In jazz it's usually a seventh but you can have major ninths,flat ninths,sharp ninths,eleventh etc etc.
You'd start by finding where your thirds are for instance and learning there sound in relation to the root,then your fifths and and sevenths and so on.
Like i said.I have limited knowledge of this stuff.
I think there are some jazz guys on here that will know much more than i do.
#6
If we talk about the scales he used in the first video, 5:44-> was based on the major scale, 7:37-> was pretty heavily based on the pentatonic scale. My point is, the scales are not anything special, it's just the way you use them. It's about the notes that you emphasize and how they relate to the chords that you are playing over. He also plays some extended chords, not only typical 7, m7, maj7, but something like m11, 13b9, 9sus4, maj9 and stuff like that.

Honestly, the best way to learn to play jazz is to start playing it. How did you learn to play rock? You listened to rock music and learned to play some rock riffs and licks. You learn to play jazz (or any other style) exactly the same way. Theory knowledge will help, and jazz is heavily based on chords so learning about functional harmony and learning some chord voicings will help a lot (though you will learn chord voicings by just learning some songs). So knowledge of chords is really important. And you want to train your ears.

You really can't expect yourself to sound like the guy in the video right away, even if you are a good rock guitarist. That's just not realistic. Start with the basics. You can't learn to run before you can walk.

Also, you can slow the video down and just learn what he played note for note. But it will probably make no sense if you don't understand how it relates to the chords he's playing. So learn about functional harmony. A lot of jazz, especially if we are talking about pre-60s jazz, is mostly based on the basics of tonal harmony. There's really nothing radical about it, other than the fact that they use extended chords instead of simple triads (but that doesn't really change the chord functions). So if you understand tonal harmony, it should be pretty easy to learn to understand how basic jazz harmony works.

It's really important to use your ears, especially in jazz that, at least to me, is all about having a musical conversation.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#7
phil123456789

It's not easy to explain, and there's no definite answer and knowing how to improvise chord changes like the guy is doing requires that you know a fair share of music theory. I could dumb it down a little to explain what I mean in a setting that does not use 'jazz chords'. Say you have the following chord progression:

Bm - Em - A - D

which is a basic vi-ii-V-I progression in D. You'll pobably know that because it's in D, you can use the D Major scale to solo over this progression and it would work. That's technically correct and it will obviously sound good, especially if you make sure the notes you end your phrases on correspond with notes that are in the chord that's being played; for instance ending on an F# on the D major chord. What most people will learn is that they can play arpeggios over these chords as well, resulting in Bm, Em, A and D arpeggios, which are in fact nothing other than chord tones played separately.

The jazz chord-scale theory goes beyond this, and assigns an entire scale to a chord, instead of single notes or arpeggios. In this progression, it would not make very much sense, since all is in D major, but it makes for a good example. The different modes of the major scale can be used over these chords. Were you to play the progression, you would use B aeolian (minor), E dorian, A mixolydian and D ionian (major). This may seem trivial, because they all use the same notes, but bear with me - it gets interesting in a more advanced chord progression.

The first five bars of the Jazz Standard 'Blues for Alice', which is in F major, are as follows:

F6 / / / | Em7b5 / A7(b9) / | Dm7 / G7 / | Cm7 / F7 / | Bb7 / / /

Those are a lot of chords with many changes, but you can spot a couple of things going on. First off: there's chords in there that can not be made from the F major scale (every chord after F6, except for Em7b5 and Dm7, in fact), so this requires you to change your soloing approach. The most basic jazz chord-progression is known as a ii-V-I, which is a progression that has a very strong resolution to the I chord. And, indeed, we can find that exact progression in the above example:

Em7b5->A7 is a ii-V in the key of D minor
Dm7->G7 is a ii-V in the key of C major
Cm7->F7 is a ii-V in the key of Bb major

But: they do not always lead to those notes. They do lead to a chord with the same root note, but not the chord you would expect. This is where chord scales enter the picture. In order to play smooth lines over these changes, you're going to have to play corresponding modes of the major scale - or even a different scale altogether.

This means that in the above progression, you would play:

F major on the F6
E locrian on the Em7 -> Note that while this technically 'correct', it is generally discouraged to think of an m7b5 as a 'locrian' or playing F major over it. Also possible would be D minor or the A altered scale.
A mixolydian on the A7(b9) -> Even better would be the 'altered scale', which I'm not going to cover just now (but still an essential scale to learn)
D dorian on the Dm7
G mixolydian on the G7
C dorian on the Cm7
F mixolydian on the F7

I'm intentionally leaving out the final Bb7, because in this song (a blues), that's essentially your IV chord. Note: the above example is NOT easy, so don't worry if you don't grasp it immediately. It features non-resolving ii-V's in both minor and major, which is why I chose it.

If at any point in the above text there's a definition you don't understand, look it up, because you're going to see them more often
Hope that helped a little!
I do not want to have a signature anymore.
#8
wow... I just dont understand anything :-)

I just learned some songs as a kid and from there I improvised, I can play chords mixed with melodies but most of the time I dont know what notes I am playing, just the scale I am in

music theory is just hebrew to me

ok well thanks for the infos, so now I know jazz is realy for elites, and I am to old for this shit :-(

thanks anyway :-)
#9
Oh dear, I hope I didn't scare you away with that  

Anything can be learned, but playing Jazz is indeed a little difficult at first. If you're having trouble understand all that stuff about 'chord scales', that's probably because you've never thought of it that way. Let me ask you a question in return:

If you're playing a random tune or jamming with friends on some chord progression, what's your way of soloing over that progression?
I do not want to have a signature anymore.
#10
I just dont know, actually I have been doing it for so many years, that it became "natural" but I have no idea what I am doing

back in the day Ilearned penta and major/minor scales, I gave up after a year

and progressed over these brief notions...I just now that I have to use that note and not the one aside, but I just have no idea
also, as I know where to put my finger (trial and error) and as the guitar is linear compared to a piano, well I made m way through all that

I have been diging major modes and I just cant undersant the difference , when people say this mode sound more like this or is more in tune with the fundamental
I also dont understand ho, from 7 notes of the major scale, one end up with minor modes
and I especialy dont understand why starting from D(2nd) istead of C(1st) it create a different mode/color/sound/arpegio/chord/whatever
it is just in all logic the same bloody scale, the same 7 notes

I remeber having that issue when I was a kid, trying to learn modes and inversions and all these stuffs
Last edited by phil123456789 at May 13, 2017,
#11
Forget about modes and chord scales for a while. Learning to understand functional harmony is a lot more important, and that way you also understand the scale choices a lot better.

Am7-Dm7-G7-C6 is all in C major so just play the C major scale and emphasize the chord tones.

Chord scales don't necessarily have anything to do with modes. If you are thinking "A Aeolian - D Dorian - G Mixolydian - C Ionian" over the progression that I mentioned, it will sound exactly the same as if you just played the C major scale over everything. Chord scales start to make more sense if you use them to add different extensions to the chords.

Modes are something different and they only really make sense if we are talking about modal music (most music is not modal). So don't worry about them for now.

BTW, do you understand the difference between C major and A minor keys? If you do, the same logic applies to modes (and if you don't, you should definitely not learn about modes). But again, for now I think you should focus on learning about functional harmony. That's much more important than modes or chord scales. Which scale you "should" use over which chord will become a lot more clear when you understand functional harmony.

If you know the major and minor scales and understand functional harmony, you will already get pretty far. Learn about those first. After that you may want to learn about some different scales, but you need to learn the basics first.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at May 13, 2017,
#12
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Am7-Dm7-G7-C6 is all in C major so just play the C major scale and emphasize the chord tones.


Yeah, that's essentially what I started with in my long post (except in D). It's a great point to begin indeed. I just expanded on that notion, because TS wanted to know how to sound 'jazzy'.

Honestly, my first foray into jazz consisted of trying to figure out seventh chords and playing tunes in my real book. Learn the melody and the chords of any random tune (Autumn Leaves is often a good start) and keep expanding. The theory behind what you hear is interesting and may help you in the long run, but at first it might seem daunting and confusing, but it really isn't. Just play
I do not want to have a signature anymore.
#13
Rather than just learning chords you may be better off learning intervals, and then study some "jazz" chords.
It's easy enough to learn this stuff just watch how to play jazz on youtube, learn your triads, intervals, etc... should do that regardless of what you play.
1. Root
2. Minor 2nd
3. Major 2nd
4. Minor 3rd
5. Major 3rd
6. Perfect 4th
7. Diminished 5th
8. Perfect 5th
9. Minor 6th
10. Major 6th
11. Minor 7th
12. Major 7th
1. Root (octave)
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+play+jazz+guitar
Carthago delenda est.
Last edited by 33db at May 13, 2017,
#14
MaggaraMarine
I know that if at a particular time in a song, the fundamental chord is Am, then the scale has to be Am and I can only play these notes (???)
by extension I guess I can play all chords built from these notes (not even sure, that theory dates abit, I'll check it again)

I'll dig a bit about "functional harmony", never heard of that before :-)
Last edited by phil123456789 at May 14, 2017,
#15
RDSElite

yeah, the main issue for me about that is that I have no jazz culture at all

I think I got aquainted with 7th chords with "what a wonderfull world" from L. Armsrong or something,

but it's the only jazz song I can relate to,...would be easier with songs I know
#16
33dbalready checked youtube for this, but these seem so far from the first video I posted
I am gonna try to reverse engineer what he played, but I would have liked to undertand the root of what he's playing
#17
Quote by phil123456789
MaggaraMarine
I know that if at a particular time in a song, the fundamental chord is Am

Correct. And the same thing applies to modes too. The A minor scale is a mode of the C major scale. In D Dorian, Dm is the tonic chord. What makes it different from D minor, though, is the fact that D Dorian has a B and D minor has a Bb. I would suggest learning about intervals and their sounds.

But modes really aren't that important. Most of the music you will play will be in major or major keys.

then the scale has to be Am and I can only play these notes (???)

No. You can play any notes you want. If Am sounds like the tonic, you are (most likely) in the key of A minor.

by extension I guess I can play all chords built from these notes (not even sure, that theory dates abit, I'll check it again)

"Extension" just means a 7th chord that has some added notes to it - 9th, 11th or 13th (or all of them). You can also add extensions that don't fit the key scale.

I'll dig a bit about "functional harmony", never heard of that before :-)

I would guess you have heard people use roman numerals (like I-IV-V) when talking about chords or somebody refer to a chord progression as "one four five progression". They are talking about chord functions. I-IV-V or "one four five" means that you should play the tonic chord, then play the chord built on the 4th scale degree and then play the chord built on the 5th scale degree. The same chord function sounds the same in every key. But D major chord sounds different depending on the key we are in. This is why understanding chord functions is important. D-G-A, F-Bb-C- A-D-E, Eb-Ab-Bb are all I-IV-V progressions and sound the same. But as you may notice, in the progression that starts with D major, D is the I chord, but in the progression that starts with A major, D is the IV chord.

Understanding chord functions is pretty important when it comes to understanding chord progressions and learning to figure out/play chord progressions by ear.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at May 14, 2017,
#18
I really dont understand where these progressions come from (why these chords) and what does it have to do with the video I posted

also I been watching a lot of jazz videos, and I just hate it, it feels like on-purpose-anti-fun music,...and fusion sounds even worst
#19
Quote by phil123456789
I really dont understand where these progressions come from (why these chords) and what does it have to do with the video I posted

also I been watching a lot of jazz videos, and I just hate it, it feels like on-purpose-anti-fun music,...and fusion sounds even worst

Is it the music he's playing, or is it the tone of the guitar you like? He's just noodling some chords but the tone is freaking awesome.

There's all kinds of Jazz, and it isn't for everyone.
My entrance to Jazz was "The Rippingtons" which in a lot of ways sounds like elevator music (and it is in fact played in elevators) they had that style Jazz playing in this restaurant I worked for.
I remember the first time I listened to Miles Davis, one of the greats, I thought it sucked and sounded like 4 or 5 guys riffing off each other (which it was).
Down the road I got to enjoy it, it was definitely an acquired taste for me.
Carthago delenda est.
Last edited by 33db at May 15, 2017,
#20
If you hate it, then why do you want to learn it? Many accomplished guitarists don't know their way around jazz, it's not a requirement you must fulfill just because you admire jazz players. I admire trumpet players because it's my favorite instrument, but I had no idea back then and started with the guitar. I tried trumpet after 10+ years playing guitar and it felt overwhelming and alien to my hands and to my understanding of music, so even if I love how it sounds, it doesn't mean I HAVE to learn how to play it
Quote by phil123456789
I really dont understand where these progressions come from (why these chords) and what does it have to do with the video I posted

also I been watching a lot of jazz videos, and I just hate it, it feels like on-purpose-anti-fun music,...and fusion sounds even worst
Fender Jaguar -> Polytune -> Diamond Compressor -> Timmy -> OCD -> Big Muff -> Line 6 M9 -> Sonomatic Cheddar -> Spark boost -> Fender BDRI
Last edited by Svennz at May 15, 2017,
#21
Svennz dude is it so hard to understand most jazz oriented youtube videos I checked are just not what I am looking for ?

maybe that bloke is a bloody genius, cos it's the first time I hear something jazzy that is also great to listen to

and it is clearly not classical jazz nor fusion bs..get over it
Last edited by phil123456789 at May 16, 2017,
#22
phil123456789
I really feel like it's the tone you're digging not so much what he's playing, and also it helps to think of chords as a melody, or solo.
Instead of single notes play a melody through chords.

Any way that guys name is Tom Quayle and he has a ton of songs and lessons on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tom+quayle+



Carthago delenda est.
Last edited by 33db at May 16, 2017,
#23
Quote by phil123456789
I really dont understand where these progressions come from (why these chords) and what does it have to do with the video I posted

What progressions are you referring to? If you are talking about the "one four five" progression in my post, that was just an example of what I mean with functional harmony. If you don't understand what a "one four five" progression is, you will not understand anything about jazz (or any other progression in any other style either - understanding functional harmony is pretty important in any style, if you want to understand chord progressions).

But if you are talking about the progressions in the videos, well, in the first example he's first playing around the ii chord. Then he plays ii iii IV V and resolves to I in the end. The exact chords are G#m11 A#m11 B6/9 C#9sus4 C#13b9 and F#maj9. It's a really basic progression in the key of F# major, just colored with some cool extended chords. (The easiest way to understand it is to ignore all of the extensions - it's just G#m7 A#m7 B C#7 F# progression in the key of F# major. What extensions you decide to add to it is all up to you.)

The second example is Em11 A13b9 D6/9. That's ii V I in the key of D major. Again, really basic progression with just some cool extensions used as a color. Then some noodling around the I chord. Then A9sus4 A13b9 and D6/9. That's basically just V I, again, colored with some cool extended chords.

He seems to like the sound of a V13b9 chord resolving to tonic.

But yeah, there is nothing radical about the chords that he uses. They are really basic major key chords that he just colors in a cool way. To learn how to add these colors to simple chord progressions, you need to learn the sound of different kinds of chords. This way you will know exactly how to achieve the sound that you are after. I would suggest starting from intervals and learning their sounds, because chords are built from intervals and it becomes a lot easier to understand extended chords if you know how the different intervals sound like.

The tune in the beginning of the "Create a Melody with Chords" video is based on a really simple ii-V-I-V/ii-ii-V-I progression. Again, he colors the chords with some extensions but it's really basic functional harmony.

A lot of jazz is mostly based on ii-V-I progressions in different keys. You need to understand chord functions to understand what's happening in it.

also I been watching a lot of jazz videos, and I just hate it, it feels like on-purpose-anti-fun music,...and fusion sounds even worst


Well, maybe then you shouldn't focus on jazz music. You can't expect yourself to become a good jazz guitarist (like the guys in the videos you posted) if you don't really want to play jazz music. Also, jazz is great fun, maybe not always listening to it, but playing jazz is fun. Jazz is about having a musical conversation with other musicians. It is about a musical connection and reacting to other people's playing.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#24
Quote by phil123456789
Hello,

I've been playing pentatonics and rock for years now and I really admire jazz players and the beauty of some jazz phrases

the issue is that when I start learning jazz chords, well, it just sucks since I dont have jazz culture, I dont know the songs and it just does not rings to my hears

did anybody felt the same ? how could I manage to play like this ? :

(starts at 5:44 & 7:37) one example among many

any advice ? If anybody had some great/fun method to learn this..... I am all hears :-)

thanks


Phil..alot of the advice given may be over your head..thats ok..

Let me give you two fairly simple jazz oriented songs - you can find many lessons on the net for them along with sheet music..

Blue Bossa
On Green Dolphin Street

The beginning of learning "jazz" is desire..you HAVE to really want to learn this stuff..it is work and takes a good amount of practice and dedication..

Im not going to give you any examples or a mini lesson..again the net has a good amount of basic knowledge..what I will suggest is that you explore and study Diatonic Harmony...its basically the major scale and how to produce chords within the scale and how to use them together in progressions..
Along with that the study of basic theory .. these two subjects work together and help explain each other in some ways..
If this seem overwhelming .. its not really..now I don't know you..but.. I know you can do this..

other suggestion..find some musicians to play with..a guitar buddy is the ideal choice..but a keyboard player is really the best of the bunch .. just going over the two songs I gave you will advance your abilities ALOT ..

Should you invest the time and energy to do the study work .. this time next year..you will be a much different player than today

hope this helps
play well

wolf