#1
What comprehensive methods do you recommend to be more free playing along the fretboard?

The CAGED method didn't work for me. Also tried the modes. Linear methods do not work for me, I need more dynamic approaches.

Thank you

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#2
if you know your intervals and how to build chords it kinda does all the work for you

no tricks or gimmicks, really. just think of each note as a number relative to those around it depending on the harmonic context
modes are a social construct
#3
No method works when used solely as a reference. That's like trying to learn a language with a dictionary instead of literature and conversation. You have to take formulas and work out where the notes are without looking them up.
#5
Yep, something that is not just going through scales and exercises and stuff like that.

A mix of licks, chords, phrases. IDK. Like actual music, not in a linear aproach. Anything linear loses my concentration.

Something more fun and rewarding maybe?

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Last edited by Perverockstar69 at Nov 12, 2017,
#6
Quote by cdgraves
No method works when used solely as a reference. That's like trying to learn a language with a dictionary instead of literature and conversation. You have to take formulas and work out where the notes are without looking them up.

So, what do you suggest? Like what formulas?

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#7
Quote by Perverockstar69
Yep, something that is not just going through scales and exercises and stuff like that.

A mix of licks, chords, phrases. IDK. Like actual music, not in a linear aproach. Anything linear loses my concentration.

Something more fun and rewarding maybe?


you know a good way to learn how to make actual music?

learning actual music

it's pretty fun and rewarding, too
modes are a social construct
#8
Quote by Perverockstar69
So, what do you suggest? Like what formulas?

The major scale formula and basic triad formulas.

-Look up the formula
-Write out all 12 major scales in 5ths (C, then F, then Bb, etc) - writing them out is more important than you think
-Starting with C, work them out one position at a time. 3 notes per string is probably the easiest pattern to use

Getting more specific, the most thorough way to learn the fretboard is by starting at the lowest possible note in the scale, which means the open low E or the first fret, and then going up to the highest note in the scale, on the 21st or 22nd fret of the high E string (unless you have a 24 fret guitar).

 Don't worry about starting on the root of the scale every time - that's the "box" approach that many people have trouble moving beyond. The idea is to learn the scale as a set of notes all over the fretboard rather than a linear pattern of finger positions that have specific beginning and ending points.

Also don't worry about trying to make sense of all this before you start working on it. You'll learn much more thoroughly if you discover the various patterns on your own.
#9
Quote by Hail
you know a good way to learn how to make actual music?

learning actual music

it's pretty fun and rewarding, too


I've played for many years, covers and own music, and for whatever reason I can't move myself around the fretboard without the same stuff and in same positions.

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#10
You play like what you listen too... what do you listen to?
Quote by reverb66
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#11
Wanna learn fret board? Make yourself a song list from easy to difficult and learn to play them. A bit challenging but fun too! And don't discard the mode and interval lessons you have learned so far. Learning to play songs will help you visualize and understand where all the theory fits in. Good luck!
#13
Learn how to play the key of C in open position, then shift it up two frets and you're playing D. Learn all 7 keys in open positions and those are the 7 positions of any key. It's actually so easy idk why it isn't the way everyone is taught. You just learn 7 shapes and it goes backwards up the neck CBAGFEDC. When you learn this way you can play in any key anywhere on the neck instantly
#15
Quote by NeoMvsEu
?


I think he's talking about transposition.

Learn the B Maj. open, then transpose horizontally back to C.
Learn the A Maj. open, then transpose horizontally back to C.
Learn the G Maj. open, then transpose horizontally back to C.
And continue on.

The way I see it is one pattern that is transposed vertically in perfect fourths 7 times, just a major scale starting from the 7th degree.
Each one of those patterns is transposed horizontally. A simple formula is "up a 4th, down a 4th" or up a 4th, up a 5th. Either way it's the octave or unison.

You end up with the common 3NPS patterns, but if you look at it closely, you can see it's not really 7 patterns, just one pattern transposed 7 times.
#16
Quote by Perverockstar69
Yep, something that is not just going through scales and exercises and stuff like that.

A mix of licks, chords, phrases. IDK. Like actual music, not in a linear aproach. Anything linear loses my concentration.

Something more fun and rewarding maybe?


In that case, I guess you need to find transcribed solos, and look at articles from the various guitar magazines.

There is a real danger you may end up playing parrot-fashion by doing this, as opposed to learning how to find intervals (and hence chords and scales) on the neck, which is transferable knowledge to all playing situations, and which can be linked to sounds you hear and imagine.  Intervals are trivial to learn,  The learning a scale becomes learning the intervals in a scale (usually somewhere between 5 to 8 intervals) ... this is really simple.  But if you do it all by note names, which is another valid way to learn, then the work grows massively (especially with chord types).

Anyway, check out some stuff by Yngwie Malmsteen, or by Gary Moore, or Steve Vai, or Eddie Van Halen, or Django Reinhardt to see horizontal navigation of the neck ... but I'm really not sure this will help you learn, as opposed to copy.
#17
jerrykramskoy

So, what do you recommend so I can move better across the fretboard while improvising and/or creating phrases and solos?

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#18
For example, I have been playin with some jam tracks in you tube and, so far, it has been very fun.

Would there be a way to take advantage of that?

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#19
close your eyes and let it rip.  

thinking too much about what you "should" be playing takes all of the fun out of guitar.  push yourself in uncomfortable directions and it'll keep you honest...i assume you learned how to play the guitar before you bought 20,000 dollars worth of gear which should mean you can play a solo; even someone else's.

basically, fuck theory if you want to be a better lead player because why should someone's opinions of what sounds good necessarily be your opinions too?  you're going to make some very unpleasant mistakes but remember them and you actually learned something that you basically taught yourself.

and most of all, remember that a million, hundred mile an hour notes rarely sound as good as two or three perfect ones. ( Malmsteen and Vai vs. Gilmour and Slash)   look for the perfect note; use your ear and you'll know it when you hear it.
#20
None of that worked for me either.   What I did was print out a blank fretboard and put all of the notes on it myself using the major scale formula.  Then i did one for each key and really got a good understanding of the chords, scales and how they fit together.  
#21
Quote by Perverockstar69
What comprehensive methods do you recommend to be more free playing along the fretboard?

The CAGED method didn't work for me. Also tried the modes. Linear methods do not work for me, I need more dynamic approaches.

Thank you

From the dumbass, musical ignoramus, playing songs and looking at chord progressions is more applicable. I see that the relative chord progression of Spineshank's "Asthmatic" and Seether's "Let You Down" are pretty similar (frets 0,2,5,7 mostly), despite being in Drop B and Drop D, respectively. I'm not going to be the guy that's giving Vai, Satch or your guitar god a run for the money. But, play shit that you feel. I love Periphery, but I'm not going to be ripping through their stuff anytime soon, maybe never. Right now, Marigold is out of my reach, but I find Seether and Chevelle much more accessible. Yeah, it's power chords. Yes, it's not technical, but it's fun, and the songs help understand the relationship between intervals. 

I'm sure that over time, more useful examples will crop up as I play, but I find playing is a lot more helpful if it involves a practical example of how it's used. So, while, yes, the best, long-term solution is (IMO) to learn the individual note names combined with how to construct a chord, in the interim, learn songs that inspire you, otherwise, what's the point?
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#22
Perverockstar69 In nearly every real playing situation for guitar improvisation, the backing will either have one or more chords, or be riffing away.   In the riff situation, that very often uses notes from a specific scale (e.g. minor pentatonic or minor blues)  centred around a particular pitch (e.g. black night by deep purple).  Of course, there are mixtures of chords and riffs to varying degrees.  In the chord case, again, the chord progression (if there is one) is usually built to draw the listener's attention to one particular chord, and the root of that chord.  So, if someone is hammering away on an E power chord, or on E minor, or on E major, everyone is going to pick up on the E (regardless if they know or care what that note is called).

So, the above is a loose way of talking about "creating a tonality" ... drawing attention to a particular note (the "tonal centre", like E above), and using supporting notes to do this.  To do this successfully, then these supporting notes must at least include those found at 7 semitones, and 3 and/or 4 semitones above the tonal centre ... and of course octaves of each of these,

In other words, the note selection includes the notes of a major or minor chord built off the tonal centre, and these guys get a lot of attention (the improviser will do stuff to make these notes stand out to the listener ... maybe play them in a higher register, play them louder, play them longer, play them on strong beats), amdist whatever other notes (s)he chooses to use.

Therefore, you owe it to yourself to become very familiar with how to find these notes as land marks, and employ them musically.  This is where interval shapes come in, and where you link the sound of thee intervals with their shapes.

A major chord has 3 intervals in it:  at 0, 4 and 7 semitones from the chord root ... A minor chord differs slightly ... 0, 3 and 7 semitones ... but that change of one semitone, from 4 to 3, makes a colossal difference to the sound flavour.  (And again, the octaves of these can be used).

One way to play these three notes in the chord is just along one string.  So, for E minor, you'd align the pattern (0, 3, 7) so 0 coincides with E.  So, you'd play the open string, and fret 3 and fret 7.  If the riff was in G, you'd play frets 3, 3+3 and 3+7 on the E string, say, or frets 8, 8+3 and 8+7 on the B string.

Eddie Van Halen loved using this, with tapping ... just add a tap 12 semitones above the root of the chord  ... e.g

e: 0 3 7 0 3 7 12(T) slide tap up to 15, and back to 12 and pull off to 7 0 3 12(T) 0 7 12(T) 7 0

Adjust the minor chord  to get the major chord notes.  For example, with G major chord on the B string, you'd play frets 8, 8+4 and 8+7.

Musicians never talk about semitones when it comes to discussing scales and so on ... but hopefully you can understand by doing this (and realising that moving up one fret on a string produces a pitch one semitone higher than the fret you just moved from) there is a very simple way to locate one pitch from another.

SO, musicians would refer to these three notes as "1", "3" (or "b3") and "5", meaning "pitches found at 0, 4 (or 3), and 7 semitones above some chosen start note.  If yoiu had two guitarists, and one just played an E, and the other guitar played the E and then 4 (or 3) and then 7 semitones above the E, then between the two guitars, they have created three different "intervals", known as "unison", "major third (or minor third) and "perfect fifth"

When you improvise, each note you play makes an interval with the tonal centre (made up of itself, and the tonal centre) ... and the critical ones are what we've just talked about.

The shapes for these are trivial:

We've already covered on one string.

On any string pair apart from G,B, the major 3rd shape (4 semitones) is found by playing the lower pitch somewhere on the lower sounding string, and then playing one fret lower (towards the nut) on the upper string.  Adjust this to get the minor 3rd shape (3 semitones) by moving the upper pitch back one fret more towards the nut.

On the G,B pair, the shape changes because this string pair is tuned differently (4 semitones apart).  Now the shape becomes a vertical line ... use the same fret on each string.  Adjust this back one fret on the B string to get the minor 3rd. (3 semitones).

That's easy, right?

The other interval, the perfect 5th is also simple (any interval shape is simple).  

On any string pair other than G,B, you can make 7 semitones (a perfect 5th) by playing some note on the lower string, and playing 2 frets higher on the upper string.  (Therefore if you adjusted that upper note back by 3 frets towards the nut, it would then be 4 semitones from the lower note, and you've "found" the previous "major 3rd" we were talking about,  It's all consistent.

On the G,B pair, the upper note is located 3 frets higher (towards the body( than your chosen note on the G string).

There are a couple of other shapes for the perfect 5th, where the strings have are non-adjacent, but this will do for now.

And of course, to get that much loved blues/rock sound of the "b5", just adjust the upper pitch of the perfect 5th shape back one fret (the b5 is 6 semitones).  Experiment bending the b5 up to a 5. Or sliding down from the 5 to the b5 and slide back up.  Then maybe add a tapped harmonic an octave (12 frets higher) on the same string to bring out that perfect 5th in a higher register.

So, stick on your jam track, use your ears to figure out the tonal centre, and then just experiment, listening closely for whether the 3 or 4 semitones from the tonal centre works better.  You can still use the "less good" one, but you'd de-emphasise it to avoid getting punched :-)  Depending on the track, it may have one or more tonal centres appear over time (a "key change"), so the same principal would still apply, but now the tonal centre is the choice used for the new key.

Try using the above interval shapes on the SAME string, and using string pairs.  Be conscious of these ... otherwise, just go for it, have fun, don't worry too much about what other notes you play.  Zone in and out of awareness of these intervals.

The next stage is then learning the octave shapes, and learning how to find the exact same pitch when moving from one string to another,  This gives you more freedom again to locate the 1, (b)3 and 5 of the tonal centre all over the neck


Even more important is learning the sounds of the b3, the 3 and the 5 ... learn to sing these, or to hear them in your head, AWAY from the guitar.  Try making up short melodies with these, and whatever else pops into your head.  Then check yourself on guitar.  This is the best way I know of connecting the brain, the hands, the eyes and the ears.

Take a look at https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/for_beginners/conquering_the_fretboard_-_part_1.html, and https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/for_beginners/a_deep_look_at_guitar_shapes.html
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Nov 16, 2017,
#23
One of the best ways is to play follow the leader. Two guitarists sit back to back (ears only for this) and one is the leader; he plays something and the other repeats it, then switch so the other is the leader... repeat.

This requires attention, focus, listening, holding the other's played sound in one's mind, finding it on the guitar, playing it, and constantly evaluating:

- if what you heard matches what the other actually played
- if what you held in your mind matches what you heard
- if what you played matches what you held in your mind
Quote by reverb66
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#24
Vreid, I have a qualm with the erroneous notion that there are only 7 keys, and transposing to one key will only help learn the one key

What seems to be a scale study is useless outside of the context of scales; I'd try to play music and actively connect sounds instead of just following tab and not connecting the sounds together.

The last two posts are pretty good too

jerrykramskoy, edited the first link to make it work; the comma was being counted as part of the URL, which it should not do
#27
Quote by NeoMvsEu
Vreid, I have a qualm with the erroneous notion that there are only 7 keys, and transposing to one key will only help learn the one key


I never said that. I'm pretty sure eddievanzant never said that either. That's what you have read into it.
His explanation was poorly worded. Maybe he could have said something like, "learn 7major scale patterns in the open position that correspond to each note of the C Major scale. Learn the C Maj open, then the D Maj open, then the E Maj open and so on. When you have these 7 patterns down, transpose them horizontally up the neck back to C major." Or something like that.
What you end up with is the 7 patterns that are normally taught as the seven modes of the major scale rooted on the 6th string.

But, learning how the scale patterns form on the guitar, and that it is really a 2 dimensional transposing instrument, as most multi course instruments are, gives you a lot more useful information that can be applied to other aspects of your fretboard navigation.
In the end, once you understand how the patterns all link up, you no longer need to see these patterns, you don't need to see the fretboard as one big pattern, which is useless, you only need to navigate where you are at the time.

All I'm talking about here is the mechanical aspect of the fretboard. This has nothing to do with what or how you apply any scales or chords. Purely how they are organized and connected as patterns. I guess it is a study of Isomorphic patterns.

If the Guitar is retuned to all 4ths, you will have perfect isomorphic patterns. This is the reason Tom Quayle is tuned all 4th's, and Allan Holdsworth said if he had to start over, he would have used all 4th's tuning. Many other Guys use all 4ths for the same reasons.
I use the same principals as all 4ths , but mentally shift the 3rd pattern break.

This is how Rusty Cooley does it. For example. He and many others including me, use a method called double split 4's, or similar. Any pattern played on the lower 4 strings can be played the same on the higher 4 strings with a 1 fret split shift in the middle. The middle 2 strings, D and G string, become common.
I didn't learn it from him or any one. It is a way of pattern joining that is logical once you understand the principals.

Fully understanding how the fretboard works also allows you to play out from any note with any finger into any scale at any time, without getting lost. You can't achieve this by just learning separate patterns, there is a little more to it than that.

In the end, if you can't play or use any scale musically with just one pattern, learning patterns up and down the fretboard won't help. It will just give you more places that you can't play or use a particular scale well.
#28
Vreid, it goes both ways - that's what you're reading into it. His words are:

Learn how to play the key of C in open position, then shift it up two frets and you're playing D.

which I interpret as
e|-----------------|-----------------|
B|-------------0-1-|-------------2-3-|
G|---------0-2-----|---------2-4-----|
D|---0-2-3---------|---2-4-5---------|
A|-3---------------|-5---------------|
E|-----------------|-----------------|

transposing one shape up the fretboard to get major keys with natural roots.

This, following up:
Learn all 7 keys in open positions and those are the 7 positions of any key

I translated as what I'm attaching as a gp5 file.

However, writing "all 7 keys" is missing huge modifiers: "(natural/non-accidental) major" in between "7" and "keys". This is my qualm: excluding necessary words when trying to teach will cause problems in the future.

Minor keys are a study in themselves, and their usage cannot be understated in all forms. But just learning scales without attaching them to chords just sounds like uninspired scale exercises. Attaching them to chords and adding speed sounds like neoclassical stuff, which while a bit generic is more musical in its delivery.

Perhaps an all-fourths tuning can make runs and the like easier (I hear peppers' ghost ), but that's a more modern development, as guitar's historic purpose was far more harmonic in nature:





The tuning quirks allow for more sympathetic resonance, which is a non-factor with all-fourths electric guitars, which are usually played in an ensemble with other instruments taking over the abdicated harmonic reins.
Attachments:
major patterns natural keys.gp5
#29
Still waiting to know what music you listen to.

To answer your first question about comprehensive methods, there aren't any. Nothing in music is comprehensive; it is all emergent. The critical thing to understand is that the emergence is not external, but internal. That means each is on his own to find their way through experiment and discovery, then constructing your own internal abstract representation. This cannot be taught, but it can be learned.
Quote by reverb66
I'm pretty sure the Bible requires that you play through a tube amp in Texas.
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