#1
So I wanted to know from anyone who has the knowledge, what makes bands such as protest the hero or the human abstract, math metal, or any other bands considered to be highly technical and mathematical.
What is it behind the theory that makes it sound the way it does?
What makes it "math"???
I know my theory to a certain point, i know my major and minor modes, my circle of fifths, the modes, and chord construction.
And I've noticed a few things, but I don't get it, what makes it that stuff?
Please give an example if you try to explain any theory.
thanks.
#2
i dont get it wen they mean mathetmatical, but i understand theory (being a pianist) if thats wat it is.

idk, but my friend writes all of his riffs using pie (3.14 etc...) and it works. they all sound really nice. its amazing. i dont kno how he does it.
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#3
Well i usually attribute the 'math' element to the amount of odd time signatures and possibly polyrythms and other odd things timing wise.

But in other musical aspects they usually play very atonal stuff
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#4
mathmetal or math core is like the number 12 looks like you and fall of troy too its like riffs composed of solos and blast beat drums and screams yet sounding upbeat.... also human abstract is wicked live saw em with dir en grey they were both amazing
#5
Yeah, that's what I've noticed with like death metal and other atonal bands, but what im' talking about, like protest the hero, uses alot of non atonal stuff, i can hear key changes, but i want to know if there's any certain modulation or movement that they do, if there's any "math" in the actual melody and notes, not just the timing.
#6
something is math metal when the riffs created are not inspired by tones that are interesting or pleasing to the ear. instead, the riffs and "melodies (if there are any) are purely mathematical. In other words, they have time signatures that make no real natural sense and that you can only know once you've memorized them. there's no feel to the music, except for a feeling of extreme discomfort and randomness. there's typically no such thing as a key either. Nothing is written as a result of a natural urge or feeling. it's all written through complex patterns and bullshit.
#7
I think the only real "Math" aspects are the odd time signatures, and how they jump around a lot...produces a very uneasy feeling listening
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#8
Hm, Yeah, I'd had all that in mind, I just wasn't sure if maybe there was something they were doing I didn't know about.
So you all have heard protest the hero?
And like the immense amount of key change they have?
Because really, you can hear the changes.
#9
Frequent metric shifts, lack of repetition (at times bordering on through-composition), extremely fast or slow tempos (40 bpm is a lot more demanding than one might expect), aleatoric elements (i.e. dice rolling or other elements of chance in composition - see The Dillinger Escape Plan) complex harmonic implications, chromaticism or atonality, inspiration from the avant-garde (see Botch, Psyopus, Naked City), jarring shifts in mood, bizarre lyrical subject matter, sweeping conceptual ideas.
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#10
Quote by Shadow_Hawk
i dont get it wen they mean mathetmatical, but i understand theory (being a pianist) if thats wat it is.

idk, but my friend writes all of his riffs using pie (3.14 etc...) and it works. they all sound really nice. its amazing. i dont kno how he does it.

are you serious?
lol im gonna feel like a total idiot if your not serious.....

but im pretty sure math metal just means they use really weird time signatures.


Frequent metric shifts, lack of repetition (at times bordering on through-composition), extremely fast or slow tempos (40 bpm is a lot more demanding than one might expect), aleatoric elements (i.e. dice rolling or other elements of chance in composition - see The Dillinger Escape Plan) complex harmonic implications, chromaticism or atonality, inspiration from the avant-garde (see Botch, Psyopus, Naked City), jarring shifts in mood, bizarre lyrical subject matter, sweeping conceptual ideas.


you make is sound so cool.
lol im gonna try to make a "math metal" riff/song later.
=]
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#11
Really its about phrasing...

The progressions are phrased so that they are not regular in whatever time signature they are in (believe it or not most meshuggah is in 4 4) they phrase the riffs so that they extend beyond normal progressions... They're riffs last say... 7 bars vs a normal 8, or 5 instead of 4) that's really the huge element ive found in math music...

SiKtH is really dope at math music... check em out... even though they is dead now.
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#12
some use aspects of twelve tone composition (which when strictly followed makes music into nothing more then a math equation), but mostly because of the atonal sound (if not actually strictly atonal), lack of repetition, irregular beats and harmonies and often changing and odd meter (hence the math--time signatures are represented by numbers like 4/4 6/8 9/8 27/16 etc)
#13
Protest the hero isnt really "mathmetal", what ever the hell that is. There more progresive metal, well there new stuf is (Fortress), Kazia was more hardcore, and there first one (dont remember the name), was punk. They change is every cd lol. But this is jest my opinions.
#14
Quote by Shadow_Hawk
i dont get it wen they mean mathetmatical, but i understand theory (being a pianist) if thats wat it is.

idk, but my friend writes all of his riffs using pie (3.14 etc...) and it works. they all sound really nice. its amazing. i dont kno how he does it.


Must be hard to play with sticky fingers though.
#15
I hereby claim rights to "Dice Music"

2 dice; 6 side = 1 - 12
12 notes in music.
I'm gonna throw my dice all night till I get a song.
I call it the dice song.

I'm actually gonna write a genius piece of music, and call it the dice song.
When I get interviewed I tell all people that 1 night I threw dice and decided to write down the notes.

People think I'm genius, and a new genre is born.

I'm gonna write an concept album called: With Vegas in my Heart.
It has the Dice song as a single. And pokerface johnny as the 2nd.

I'm gonna write 1 ballad song, and it's gonna be called Queen of Hearts. It's about my exgirlfriend.

...

What i'm trying to say is; as long as u got a crazy story etc. There's a chance some crazy fool is gonna accept it Math Metal is not based on emotions. It's just a Gimmick; nothing more and there's nothing wrong with that. I like crazy concepts.

Just remember that lil thing.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Nov 16, 2008,
#16
Most of the progressive or 'math' sound of stuff is just using odd time signatures/switching time signatures often.
#17
I don't think the TS is straight talking about math metal music... or maybe he is, but i thought he was saying stuff like, Underoath or fall of troy and the like. underoath specifically play a lot of very dissonant stuff and i at least am wondering if there's any theory behind it or do they just try to make "bad" sounds every four beats. (thats an oversimplification, underoath is very very good)
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#19
I hereby claim rights to "Dice Music"

If Mozart wasn't dead, he'd sue.

It's called Aleatoric music, bee tee double-you.
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#20
Quote by J.A.M
If Mozart wasn't dead, he'd sue.

It's called Aleatoric music, bee tee double-you.



**** I hate mozart. lol. I didn't know that existed. But I should have known my own theory. Everything already exists and is played.

slapping ur weener to a guitar, play piano with drum sticks, using math to music. It's all been done

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#21
lol, I always assumed aleatoric music was more complicated than throwing two dice. Mozart and his classical buddies would have made sure the song was constructed right (as in, it resolves and uses some counterpoint).

Could someone explain to me how math metal is different to grind core and hardcore deathmetal and all those other seemingly similar genres?
#22
Quote by Shadow_Hawk
idk, but my friend writes all of his riffs using pie (3.14 etc...) and it works. they all sound really nice. its amazing. i dont kno how he does it.


Like the Harrison/Lucy meantone tuning? Or something else?


http://lucytune.com/
#23
Quote by demonofthenight
lol, I always assumed aleatoric music was more complicated than throwing two dice. Mozart and his classical buddies would have made sure the song was constructed right (as in, it resolves and uses some counterpoint).

Could someone explain to me how math metal is different to grind core and hardcore deathmetal and all those other seemingly similar genres?

grindcore is extremely different from DM and mathcore
compare sikth or protest the hero which is mathcore
to napalm death or carcass
#24
Quote by demonofthenight
lol, I always assumed aleatoric music was more complicated than throwing two dice. Mozart and his classical buddies would have made sure the song was constructed right (as in, it resolves and uses some counterpoint).

Could someone explain to me how math metal is different to grind core and hardcore deathmetal and all those other seemingly similar genres?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleatoric

Mozart isn't mentioned, but I'm sure I heard he tried it.
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#25
Math metal is an insult to metal. I heard this song by Psyopus and it was so bad i looked it up to see if this band was for real. Sure enough they were. I read something about how they were math metal i soon found out math metal doesn't deserve to exist. Enough said. You may close this thread now.
#26
Quote by Ibanezshred333
Math metal is an insult to metal. I heard this song by Psyopus and it was so bad i looked it up to see if this band was for real. Sure enough they were. I read something about how they were math metal i soon found out math metal doesn't deserve to exist. Enough said. You may close this thread now.

Yeah dude all metal should sound just like The Devil Wears Prada!

No, you just suck and happen to know nothing.
#27
Quote by Ibanezshred333
Math metal is an insult to metal. I heard this song by Psyopus and it was so bad i looked it up to see if this band was for real. Sure enough they were. I read something about how they were math metal i soon found out math metal doesn't deserve to exist. Enough said. You may close this thread now.

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#28
does minus the bear count...
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#29
Quote by Hobo279
something is math metal when the riffs created are not inspired by tones that are interesting or pleasing to the ear. instead, the riffs and "melodies (if there are any) are purely mathematical. In other words, they have time signatures that make no real natural sense and that you can only know once you've memorized them. there's no feel to the music, except for a feeling of extreme discomfort and randomness. there's typically no such thing as a key either. Nothing is written as a result of a natural urge or feeling. it's all written through complex patterns and bull****.

im not into the whole "XTREEME METAL" stuff, but the way you explained it makes it sound really fun, and challenging to write.


EDIT: when i say im not into "extreme metal" i mean the heaviest stuff i listen to is august burns red.
lol
i HATE the music where the drums are just pounding and you cant even hear whats happening.
suicide silence is a perfect example of heavy music i HATE.
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#30
I always viewed math metal as ignoring typical music theory, instead basing the composition on abstract rules or ideas - be it rhythm or note choice

for example, the band Blotted Science used various rules of 12 tones for the composition, as described by their guitarist here: http://www.ronjarzombek.com/rj12tone.html - the riffs and melodies arent necessarily atonal, but nonetheless all based on the rules described in the link above
#31
Quote by `NeXxuS`
Really its about phrasing...

The progressions are phrased so that they are not regular in whatever time signature they are in (believe it or not most meshuggah is in 4 4) they phrase the riffs so that they extend beyond normal progressions... They're riffs last say... 7 bars vs a normal 8, or 5 instead of 4) that's really the huge element ive found in math music...

SiKtH is really dope at math music... check em out... even though they is dead now.


Indeed.
#32
Quote by Ibanezshred333
Math metal is an insult to metal. I heard this song by Psyopus and it was so bad i looked it up to see if this band was for real. Sure enough they were. I read something about how they were math metal i soon found out math metal doesn't deserve to exist. Enough said. You may close this thread now.


Psyopus ****ing rules.
I used to abhor them too, but now that my ears have adjusted to such levels of madness, I gotta say they are quite a hoot to listen to.

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#33
^You bumped a ten day old thread that you didn't start to say how much you love some obscure *core band?
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#34
hmmm what can i say?

is this board full of children?!?!

FFS!!!! do some reasearch, math metal was a movement pioneered by bands like watchtower in the 80s....all your "math metal" bands are 20 years late

look up ron jarzombek, he is at the forefront of math metal for example

2 thirds of satan from his album solitary thinking of theoretical confinement

all bars are 6/4 2 sets of notes are used (thats the chromatic scale divided by 2...so six each) i cant be aresed to get the liner notes out, but each group contains a tritone (6 halfsteps) and the groups are moved up and down in groups of 6

maths

a headache and a 64th.... the bars are 4/4 1/64 (or 65/64)

are you all getting it? none of these so called math metal bands are math...they just have widdly parts

check out rons theory for the cycle of 12 tones, and its aplication

then go and listen to watchtower

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