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#1
EDIT: Ignore this see my latest reply on page 3.

So I have made a simple solo, but I just wrote what I thought sounded cool. My problem is that I don't really know what key the rhythm guitar should be in. I have started to learn some basic theory, and this is how I do it:

I play the notes of the section and try to link that with a major scale, and then I can see what notes that should be flat/sharp and determine the mode/key.

The only bad thing about that is that it takes some time and I'm not very sure if I'm correct. Is there any faster way, or am I just doing it wrong?


For example, here you have my solo. You can't see the timing and all that, I have used the bars (that should mark where the measure ends/starts) only to separate different sections (because they sound a bit different with different scales/modes). I have tried my technique written above to try to determine the mode/key on the first 3 sections (measures).


|---------------------------------13-16-13------------------13-16-13------15b16-|
|------------------------------15-----------15------------15------------15-----------|
|-----------------------13-16-----------------16-13-16------------------------------|
|---------------12-15------------------------------------------------------------------|
|--------11-14--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-10-13---------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
This is the easiest one, because it's simply a D diminished arpeggio.


|-13-15-13-------------------|
|--------------17-15-13-12-10----|
|----------------------------|
|----------------------------|
|----------------------------|
|----------------------------|
From what I can see, this is a C (major).


|----------------------------------|
|-9-5b6r(5)-5-6-5------------------|
|----------------------7-5-4------------|
|-----------------------------7-6--------|
|----------------------------------8-7----|
|------------------------------------------|
And I think this one is a C augmented.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, that was the first three. Please try to determine the next five:


|-----------------------------------------------------------
|-----------------------------------------------------------
|-----------------------------------------------------------
|----------------------14-------14-14b15r(14)\-------------14-15-17-
|-14\-/(14)-15-17----15-17--------------------14-15-17----------
|-----------------------------------------------------------


-----------------------15-17-18-17-15-17-18-17-15--------------|
------------15-17-18------------------------------------17-----------|
14-15-17---------------------------------------------------18-15-14\-|
----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
----------------------------------------------------------------------------|


|-----------------------|
|-----------------------|
|-14-12-14b15r12-12b14--|
|-----------------------|
|-----------------------|
|-----------------------|


                                                                               
|--------------------------------------8-10-12-10-8-10-12-13-8-10-12-13-8-10-12-|
|------------------------------9-10-12------------------------------------------|
|-9tr10----------------9-10-12--------------------------------------------------|
|--------12-10-9-10-12----------------------------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

                  
|-13-8-10-12-15-10-12-13-17-12-13-15-19-13-15-17---19b20-22-19pb20r17-20-17\--
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------|


So, please tell me if I was correct, any hints on how to more easy determine the key/mode of a solo/song and if you have time, determine the key of the rest of the solo. Oh yeah, and it's in standard E tuning.

THANKS!!
Last edited by VikingMetalhead at Dec 7, 2008,
#2
i believe you find the key by the note of the first note of the song./solo./part
Just call me Julius, J, etc.
Taking an Internet break for a while, will come on when I can.
#3
Quote by nowa90
i believe you find the key by the note of the first note of the song./solo./part


nope
you find the tonal center.. where the piece want to resolve to

one way would be to find the notes of the solo and see what key would fit them best
Quote by joshjhasarrived
Little does the government suspect that it's funds are being rapidly drained through funding infinite free cardboard boxes to bored teenagers on an internet forum.
#4
Quote by nowa90
i believe you find the key by the note of the first note of the song./solo./part


no.

The first of the 5 is in B locrian
#5
Quote by Gordita Supreme
no.

The first of the 5 is in B locrian


how can you tell?
Quote by joshjhasarrived
Little does the government suspect that it's funds are being rapidly drained through funding infinite free cardboard boxes to bored teenagers on an internet forum.
#6
All you have to do is go through the music, find out which notes are sharp/flat, relate that to a major/minor scale, and see where the piece resolves.


Quote by victoryaloy
how can you tell?

That's what I'm wondering. As far as I know, the harmony decides what's what. BUT, this isn't about "the unmentionable word" so DON'T BRING THEM UP.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#7
Quote by victoryaloy
how can you tell?


How can I tell what?

It contains 6 notes out of (assumed) 7.

It has B, C, D, E, F, G. I'm assuming it would also have an A.

Of course you could look at this as C major, D dorian, etc.. but since he is starting on B and it contains all of the notes of C major, It's probably B locrian.
#8
Quote by Gordita Supreme
How can I tell what?

It contains 6 notes out of (assumed) 7.

It has B, C, D, E, F, G. I'm assuming it would also have an A.

Of course you could look at this as C major, D dorian, etc.. but since he is starting on B and it contains all of the notes of C major, It's probably B locrian.
Look above and PLEASE delete your post. This isn't about modes. The guy doesn't know how to find a key, and you're bringing THOSE up. C'mon. (I'm not trying to sound mean so sorry if I do )
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#9
Quote by Gordita Supreme
How can I tell what?

It contains 6 notes out of (assumed) 7.

It has B, C, D, E, F, G. I'm assuming it would also have an A.

Of course you could look at this as C major, D dorian, etc.. but since he is starting on B and it contains all of the notes of C major, It's probably B locrian.


alright.. i see what your saying.

it all really depends on where it wants to resolve so its hard to say w/o chords
Quote by joshjhasarrived
Little does the government suspect that it's funds are being rapidly drained through funding infinite free cardboard boxes to bored teenagers on an internet forum.
#10
Quote by metal4all
Look above and PLEASE delete your post. This isn't about modes. The guy doesn't know how to find a key, and you're bringing THOSE up. C'mon. (I'm not trying to sound mean so sorry if I do )


Then call it C major.... Don't tell me to delete my post because I referred to a mode as a key. If you want to be anal about it than call it C major.

But since he is asking to identify a scale, I'm going to call it B LOCRIAN, which is what he is playing and what he is trying to identify, B LOCRIAN, because that is what that SCALE is.
#11
Quote by Gordita Supreme
Then call it C major.... Don't tell me to delete my post because I referred to a mode as a key. If you want to be anal about it than call it C major.

But since he is asking to identify a scale, I'm going to call it B LOCRIAN, which is what he is playing and what he is trying to identify, B LOCRIAN, because that is what that SCALE is.
Don't get all offended for no reason and be a dick to me. I was being nice. TS asked for a KEY by the way. I'm not even going to waste my time with you. Have a good day.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#12
In my opinion the solo can be split in to 3 main sections

Section 1: Consists of the first 3 bits
I would say the first part is D blues major because of the G#.
The second part is D dorian.
And the third part is a combination of the D blues major and D dorian.

Section 2: Consists of the next 3 bits
The 3 parts are a combination of D minor and D harmonic minor.

Section 3: Consists of the last to bits
For the last part it goes back to a combination of the D blues major and D dorian.

Hope that helps but this just my opinion and other keys will work just as well its really up to you.
#13
Quote by james05090
In my opinion the solo can be split in to 3 main sections

Section 1: Consists of the first 3 bits
I would say the first part is D blues major because of the G#.
The second part is D dorian.
And the third part is a combination of the D blues major and D dorian.

Section 2: Consists of the next 3 bits
The 3 parts are a combination of D minor and D harmonic minor.

Section 3: Consists of the last to bits
For the last part it goes back to a combination of the D blues major and D dorian.

Hope that helps but this just my opinion and other keys will work just as well its really up to you.

Ok, so what you're saying is that it's all in the key of D? So that the only difference between the parts is the mode? So normally (correct me if it's always) a song/solo is in the same key all the time? Or can I decide that myself, with only the modes being "unchangeable"?

Thanks alot for the help guys! I have tried learning this through some of the lessons on UG but I really need to ask as well to really get it.
#14
Quote by metal4all
Look above and PLEASE delete your post. This isn't about modes. The guy doesn't know how to find a key, and you're bringing THOSE up. C'mon. (I'm not trying to sound mean so sorry if I do )

+1 And how do all these people know without know the durations of the notes. Two sequences of the same notes could be in different keys depending on how they are played.

Its hard to tell the key sometimes by doing note analisis because you dont know whats an out of key note. I was rocking out some zz top last night clearly in the key of C. Sharp dressed man in case your wondering. If you analised the solo notes you might get confused becuase you dont see the rhythem guitar chords and the solo contains many A# and D# and various other out of key notes.
I know its C because it keeps resolving to C in the rythem. Like the above guy said listen to where the song is resloving too. Analising notes can help but can fool you too.
#15
Quote by Gordita Supreme
Then call it C major.... Don't tell me to delete my post because I referred to a mode as a key. If you want to be anal about it than call it C major.

But since he is asking to identify a scale, I'm going to call it B LOCRIAN, which is what he is playing and what he is trying to identify, B LOCRIAN, because that is what that SCALE is.


Because it resolves so elegantly to a B half diminished chord? .

TS, we need the chords you're playing over. Without them - C major seems the consensus though I haven't looked.
#16
Quote by Freepower
Because it resolves so elegantly to a B half diminished chord? .

TS, we need the chords you're playing over. Without them - C major seems the consensus though I haven't looked.

Yeah I know it's better to compose a solo after you've got the rhythm section done, but I just wrote this with no chords at all.

Well, I understand that you can't help me any more. But thanks for trying at least!
#18
Ok I'm back again, and made something from scratch. I started out with a riff, and it includes the following power chords (in no specific order):


Riff 1:
------9---8--------------D
-2---7---7----5--6--3--A
-0-------------3--4--1--E

Riff 2:
---------------5---4---8---9----D
-2---5---4---3---2---6---7----A
-0---3---2----------------------E
(it appears like single notes on some chords, but nevermind that)


Now I want to know what key/mode this is in (so that I can add fills and stuff ). I guess it's E, but I don't know what chord/mode. I have read three theory lessons covering this but I need to learn it practically.

And can a song be in different keys? Is it really like if I choose E as a key, can I only use Emaj, Fmin, Gmin, Amaj, Bmaj, Cmin and Ddim chords? Or if I have Emin (or any other minor), what does the chordchart look like then?

Thanks!!!
#19
Quote by VikingMetalhead
Now I want to know what key/mode this is in (so that I can add fills and stuff ). I guess it's E, but I don't know what chord/mode. I have read three theory lessons covering this but I need to learn it practically.

And can a song be in different keys? Is it really like if I choose E as a key, can I only use Emaj, Fmin, Gmin, Amaj, Bmaj, Cmin and Ddim chords? Or if I have Emin (or any other minor), what does the chordchart look like then?

Thanks!!!


Huh?

Not at once. It can modulate which just means changing keys in the song.

Use whatever chords you want. Your ear is your guide. It's okay to use non-diatonic chords. Don't forget there are a lot more chords than that though (sus, sus2, 7, maj7, half-diminished, diminished 7th, 9, add9, maj 6, min 6, etc, etc.)

If you're in a minor key, that MmmMMmd pattern starts on the 6th one (like how you find the relative minor. A minor is the relative minor of C major. A is the 6th of C). That makes the pattern: mdMmmMM
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#20
Quote by metal4all
Huh?

Not at once. It can modulate which just means changing keys in the song.

Use whatever chords you want. Your ear is your guide. It's okay to use non-diatonic chords. Don't forget there are a lot more chords than that though (sus, sus2, 7, maj7, half-diminished, diminished 7th, 9, add9, maj 6, min 6, etc, etc.)

If you're in a minor key, that MmmMMmd pattern starts on the 6th one (like how you find the relative minor. A minor is the relative minor of C major. A is the 6th of C). That makes the pattern: mdMmmMM

1. Ok, but you usually don't change keys in the middle of a measure right?

2. But isn't for example maj7 exactly like a major chord, just with a seventh note in the "triad"? So wouldn't a maj7 be diatonic? And also, if I have chosen the key of E, I still wouldn't in theory be able to do an Fdim?

And thanks for the explanation, I understand that now
#21
Quote by Gordita Supreme
Then call it C major.... Don't tell me to delete my post because I referred to a mode as a key. If you want to be anal about it than call it C major.

But since he is asking to identify a scale, I'm going to call it B LOCRIAN, which is what he is playing and what he is trying to identify, B LOCRIAN, because that is what that SCALE is.


The note the passage starts on is irrelevant. Modes, least of all locrian, have nothing to do with this.

TS: Your piece will most likely be in either C major or A minor. If you're playing metal, I imagine you're aiming for a minor tonality, so write some backing harmony that suggests A minor.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
Last edited by Archeo Avis at Nov 23, 2008,
#22
Quote by VikingMetalhead
1. Ok, but you usually don't change keys in the middle of a measure right?

2. But isn't for example maj7 exactly like a major chord, just with a seventh note in the "triad"? So wouldn't a maj7 be diatonic? And also, if I have chosen the key of E, I still wouldn't in theory be able to do an Fdim?

And thanks for the explanation, I understand that now
You can change keys whenever you want. Do it for a part of the song or in the middle of a measure for funsies, whatever you want.

Yeah, but they're still different chords. It doesn't necessarily mean it will be diatonic though. The "formula" for 7th chords is: MmmMDmh (D=dominant, h=half-diminished). You can use and Fdim chord in whatever song you want, it just won't be diatonic in most.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#23
Quote by metal4all
You can change keys whenever you want. Do it for a part of the song or in the middle of a measure for funsies, whatever you want.

Yeah, but they're still different chords. It doesn't necessarily mean it will be diatonic though. The "formula" for 7th chords is: MmmMDmh (D=dominant, h=half-diminished). You can use and Fdim chord in whatever song you want, it just won't be diatonic in most.

But how common is it to change key in the middle of a measure in metal? Like if you listen to a regular no-progressive metal song, say Metallica, how often does it change key if ever? Since I only play powerchords I don't know much about chord progressions in practice. Or is it hard to say because there are many options, like if I think something's in the key of A, another guy thinks it's just a different mode.

And thanks Archeo Avis for the suggestion, I'll try Amin (yeah, I play metal )
#24
Quote by VikingMetalhead
But how common is it to change key in the middle of a measure in metal? Like if you listen to a regular no-progressive metal song, say Metallica, how often does it change key if ever? Since I only play powerchords I don't know much about chord progressions in practice. Or is it hard to say because there are many options, like if I think something's in the key of A, another guy thinks it's just a different mode.

And thanks Archeo Avis for the suggestion, I'll try Amin (yeah, I play metal )
I have no clue. I know Metallica usually stays in E minor. I you have something confused; using an out-of-key chord and changing keys are two different things. If you play: Bmin7b5 - E7 - Amin7 , you're not going out of key even though E7 isn't diatonic. The G# in it is just an accidental.

If something's in A, it's in A; you can't really say differently unless it is actually ambiguous, like: GmM7 - D#min - Fsus4 - A7add13 (I just named random chords).
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#25
Quote by metal4all
I have no clue. I know Metallica usually stays in E minor. I you have something confused; using an out-of-key chord and changing keys are two different things. If you play: Bmin7b5 - E7 - Amin7 , you're not going out of key even though E7 isn't diatonic. The G# in it is just an accidental.

If something's in A, it's in A; you can't really say differently unless it is actually ambiguous, like: GmM7 - D#min - Fsus4 - A7add13 (I just named random chords).

Do you have any suggestions on how to find out the key of a piece? What do you do as the first thing? How do you think?

And if there are many options, and I wanna choose a minor key, you showed me how I can just move the progression pattern. But what is the main scale? If the key is C major, the "main" or first scale is C major. Would the main scale of E minor-key be E minor? If so, wouldn't that make the progression Emin-F#-G-A-B-C-D-Emin?

"If you're in a minor key, that MmmMMmd pattern starts on the 6th one (like how you find the relative minor. A minor is the relative minor of C major. A is the 6th of C). That makes the pattern: mdMmmMM" Do you always compare with the C major scale when doing this?

Thanks
#26
Quote by VikingMetalhead
Do you have any suggestions on how to find out the key of a piece? What do you do as the first thing? How do you think?

I answered this exact question to this one dude in this thread I bookmarked: https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=919073

It's a really short answer so if you want me to elaborate, just ask.



And if there are many options, and I wanna choose a minor key, you showed me how I can just move the progression pattern. But what is the main scale? If the key is C major, the "main" or first scale is C major. Would the main scale of E minor-key be E minor? If so, wouldn't that make the progression Emin-F#-G-A-B-C-D-Emin?


Keys come from scales. If you play the C major scale, you're in C major. If you play the D minor scale, you're in D minor. This doesn't really work with scales other than major or minor so don't worry about that until later because it gets technical.

The "main scale" of E minor would be the E minor scale.

"If so, wouldn't that make the progression Emin-F#-G-A-B-C-D-Emin?" I don't quite get your question, sorry. Could you put it in different words?



"If you're in a minor key, that MmmMMmd pattern starts on the 6th one (like how you find the relative minor. A minor is the relative minor of C major. A is the 6th of C). That makes the pattern: mdMmmMM" Do you always compare with the C major scale when doing this?

I just used C major for ease. You use it for anything. If you want to find the chords in the key of something crazy like D# major, you'd do the same thing. D#, E#, F##, G#, A#, B#, C##. You see B# is the 6th of D# so B# minor is the "relative minor" of D#. They contain the same notes but they resolve to different places (and their respective scales, D#major and B#minor, have different intervals).

Thanks



I <3 SD


Edit: On the subject of finding keys, these 2 links might be of use:

Go to 5.0 - http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/for_beginners/learning_music_theory_the_beginning.html

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/general_music/the_crusade_part_8_key_signatures_and_the_circle_of_fifths.html
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
Last edited by metal4all at Nov 25, 2008,
#27
I have no clue. I know Metallica usually stays in E minor. I you have something confused; using an out-of-key chord and changing keys are two different things. If you play: Bmin7b5 - E7 - Amin7 , you're not going out of key even though E7 isn't diatonic. The G# in it is just an accidental.


I don't want to be a complete ass by saying this.. But wouldnt you want to change that E7 into an E7b9? Since that will pull stronger to the Amin7 chord.. And also, even though E7 is NOT diatonic, it does relate to the diatonic chords! The thing is, the E7 in this case is the secondary dominant of Amin7, using the strong V-I cadence to spice up the progression. I won't go into a lot of detail, as there are several lessons on UG that explain these concepts very nicely
#28
Quote by Aetius
I don't want to be a complete ass by saying this.. But wouldnt you want to change that E7 into an E7b9? Since that will pull stronger to the Amin7 chord.. And also, even though E7 is NOT diatonic, it does relate to the diatonic chords! The thing is, the E7 in this case is the secondary dominant of Amin7, using the strong V-I cadence to spice up the progression. I won't go into a lot of detail, as there are several lessons on UG that explain these concepts very nicely
I know exactly what you're talking about but I just wanted to get the point across that a chord can have an accidental in it and still be fine to use. I'm not talking about secondary dominants that contain leading tones for strong resolutions (G# - A).
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#29
Quote by Metal4all
And if there are many options, and I wanna choose a minor key, you showed me how I can just move the progression pattern. But what is the main scale? If the key is C major, the "main" or first scale is C major. Would the main scale of E minor-key be E minor? If so, wouldn't that make the progression Emin-F#-G-A-B-C-D-Emin?


Keys come from scales. If you play the C major scale, you're in C major. If you play the D minor scale, you're in D minor. This doesn't really work with scales other than major or minor so don't worry about that until later because it gets technical.

The "main scale" of E minor would be the E minor scale.

"If so, wouldn't that make the progression Emin-F#-G-A-B-C-D-Emin?" I don't quite get your question, sorry. Could you put it in different words?

What I meant is that if I have the key of E minor, and as you said, the key scale would be E minor. Now, in the key of C major, we have D as the second chord, then E, then F, then G and so on. All chords are like the notes of the scale. If we'd have Eminor as key, would we do the same thing? Would all chords be like the notes of the E minor scale? As you know, the notes of the Eminor scale is E, F#, G, A, B, C, D, E right? If so, wouldn't the chords be E minor, F#, G, A, B, C, D, E minor (I don't know the mode of the other chords in this case)?

I read that post of the Circle of Fifths, but it's mainly used to make it all go faster so you don't need to look up every single note huh?

Another one that I got from reading through the thread. You said "If you're in a minor key, that MmmMMmd pattern starts on the 6th one (like how you find the relative minor. A minor is the relative minor of C major. A is the 6th of C). That makes the pattern: mdMmmMM". But isn't the 2nd and 3rd degrees of Cmaj also minor?

Thanks for being patient with a theorynoob like me
#30
Quote by VikingMetalhead
What I meant is that if I have the key of E minor, and as you said, the key scale would be E minor. Now, in the key of C major, we have D as the second chord, then E, then F, then G and so on. All chords are like the notes of the scale. If we'd have Eminor as key, would we do the same thing? Would all chords be like the notes of the E minor scale? As you know, the notes of the Eminor scale is E, F#, G, A, B, C, D, E right? If so, wouldn't the chords be E minor, F#, G, A, B, C, D, E minor (I don't know the mode of the other chords in this case)

Oh, sorry. Yep, you're absolutely correct. You build the chords off of the notes in the scale.

I read that post of the Circle of Fifths, but it's mainly used to make it all go faster so you don't need to look up every single note huh?

Yup. That way you don't have to build out the major/minor scales - you will already know the notes in them with enough Co5 practice. Example: Gmaj has one sharp (F#), Emaj has 4 sharps (F#, C#, G#, D#), etc. It gets programmed in your mind after a while. ...unless you want to think: E, okay, up a whole step is... F#, and up a halfstep is G, etc.

Another one that I got from reading through the thread. You said "If you're in a minor key, that MmmMMmd pattern starts on the 6th one (like how you find the relative minor. A minor is the relative minor of C major. A is the 6th of C). That makes the pattern: mdMmmMM". But isn't the 2nd and 3rd degrees of Cmaj also minor?

The Co5 shows you that 2 different keys, one major and the other minor, can have the same key signature. It doesn't have to do with the chords off of the first scale (in this case C major), it just has to do with the 6th degree of the scale.

The Co5 shows you that C major and A minor have the same key signature. They have no sharps or flats. That means the chords in both of those keys are they same (they have no sharps/flats). So if you know the chords in C major, you know the chords in A minor. To know the relationship between the major key and the minor key (called the "relative" minor because the keys are related by the degrees in the scales) you only have to be able to count.

Count up 6 (a major 6th interval) from C. C=1, D=2, E=3, F=4, G=5, A=6. A is the relative minor of C major.


That works for all keys. Let's do it the other way around though - let's find the relative major.

Say you're in E minor and you want to know what the relative major key is. All you have to do is count up a minor 3rd. Why a minor 3rd, you ask? Well to get the relative minor, you go up a major 6th and a major 6th interval inverts to a minor 3rd so the minor 3rd is how you get from minor to major.

Now, up a minor 3rd from E: E=1, F#=2, G=b3

Even though G is the "third" in E minor, you always compare intervals to the major scale. So, in this case, you counted up a minor 3rd from the E major scale. In the E major scale G's are sharp so for a minor 3rd, you flatten it (making G natural).

That shows that G is the relative major.


Thanks for being patient with a theorynoob like me
Oh, no problem. I want to become a teacher and I love answering questions like this because it's like practice (and it also makes me make sure that I'm at the top of my game).
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
Last edited by metal4all at Nov 26, 2008,
#31
Thanks! I think I understand everything but the last one. Do you mean that every minor scale has a major scale that has the exact same degrees? And that the sixth degree of a major scale ALWAYS is the pure minor mode? So Aeolian=minor chord, and E minor is in fact Aeolian?
And do you also mean that always, the pure major mode of a minor scale is the third degree/mode? And that the third degree of all minor scales is Ionian=major?

Quote by Metal4all

What I meant is that if I have the key of E minor, and as you said, the key scale would be E minor. Now, in the key of C major, we have D as the second chord, then E, then F, then G and so on. All chords are like the notes of the scale. If we'd have Eminor as key, would we do the same thing? Would all chords be like the notes of the E minor scale? As you know, the notes of the Eminor scale is E, F#, G, A, B, C, D, E right? If so, wouldn't the chords be E minor, F#, G, A, B, C, D, E minor (I don't know the mode of the other chords in this case)

Oh, sorry. Yep, you're absolutely correct. You build the chords off of the notes in the scale.

By reading through the thread again, I refreshed my mind and wanna ask one question related to this quote: if all major scales (ionian) chord progressions look like this: MmmMMmd, and all minor scales (aeolian) chord progressions look like this: mdMmmMM, the chord progression of E minor would be:

E minor, F# diminished, G major (which, thanks to you, I know is the relevant major since it's the 3rd degree of the aeolian scale) A minor, B minor, C major, D major, E minor. Am I right?

Another example, if I want to know the chord progression of a, say, A diminished scale, wouldn't that make the progression dMmmMMm and the chords:

A diminished, A# major,
C minor, D minor, D# major, F major, G minor, A diminished

Correct?
#32
Quote by VikingMetalhead
Thanks! I think I understand everything but the last one. Do you mean that every minor scale has a major scale that has the exact same degrees? And that the sixth degree of a major scale ALWAYS is the pure minor mode? So Aeolian=minor chord, and E minor is in fact Aeolian?
And do you also mean that always, the pure major mode of a minor scale is the third degree/mode? And that the third degree of all minor scales is Ionian=major?


Don't worry about modes just yet. Just call it minor and major (that's what they are anyways. Modes are completely different things. Minor and aeolian are a lot different.)

You basically got it right. That's good. Just one thing. The relative major/minor doesn't have the same "degrees" (which would imply intervals - and we all know the minor scale has different intervals than the major scale.), they just have the same notes [and key signature (but they're not the same key of course.)].

You're absolutely right with the third degree of the minor scale being the relative major and the 6th degree of the major being the relative minor.



By reading through the thread again, I refreshed my mind and wanna ask one question related to this quote: if all major scales (ionian) chord progressions look like this: MmmMMmd, and all minor scales (aeolian) chord progressions look like this: mdMmmMM, the chord progression of E minor would be:

E minor, F# diminished, G major (which, thanks to you, I know is the relevant major since it's the 3rd degree of the aeolian scale) A minor, B minor, C major, D major, E minor. Am I right?


You got it! Just remember though that the term is "relative", not "relevant". Probably just a simple phonetic error.



Another example, if I want to know the chord progression of a, say, A diminished scale, wouldn't that make the progression dMmmMMm and the chords:

A diminished, A# major,
C minor, D minor, D# major, F major, G minor, A diminished

Correct?


No, no no no. That's not the diminished scale. Technically, that would be the chords in A Locrian (change A#major to Bbmajor and D#major to Ebmajor) but we shouldn't worry about modes yet (for a while).

Btw, always make sure you know when to say A# or Bb and stuff like that. They are "enharmonic" but still different and can lead to confusion.


...filling space outside of quote so the thingy doesn't say post is too short...
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#33
Quote by metal4all
...filling space outside of quote so the thingy doesn't say post is too short...

Alright! Thanks man! You cleared up alot of things!

But the diminished chord progression I posted... it's still the right chords right? It's just that it preferably should have the same degrees as the diminished scale?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The final question, that riff I made. The first part contains the following notes:
(A#/Bb), B, C, D, D#/Eb, E, F, G and G#/Ab

Then, the next part contains the following notes:
A#/Bb, B, C, C#/Db, D, D#/Eb, E, F#/Gb and G

The third part contains the following notes:
A, (A#/Bb), B, C, D, E, F#/Gb and G

I made some notes in parenthesis because it's a power chord with an odd interval, and I thought it didn't matter so much because the note only occurs one time. But I guess it should be counted anyway.

It's all metal, so it's basically powerchords with E mostly chunking in the background. So something with E probably. I have taken out every single note, this is not the powerchords. If you can tell me what key and modes this is, you'd totally make my day and I wouldn't need to ask anything more. If you want, I can tab the riff if you need to see how frequent each note is.


Thanks!
#34
Quote by VikingMetalhead
Alright! Thanks man! You cleared up alot of things!

But the diminished chord progression I posted... it's still the right chords right? It's just that it preferably should have the same degrees as the diminished scale?


Those are the chords in A Locrian. It's not a "diminished" progression. The diminished scale(s) has(have) 8 notes. They're a lot different. You should really worry about the major and minor scale first. Writing something in Locrian is really difficult because the piece would want to go to the relative major (in A locrian the relative major is Bb).


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The final question, that riff I made. The first part contains the following notes:
(A#/Bb), B, C, D, D#/Eb, E, F, G and G#/Ab

Then, the next part contains the following notes:
A#/Bb, B, C, C#/Db, D, D#/Eb, E, F#/Gb and G

The third part contains the following notes:
A, (A#/Bb), B, C, D, E, F#/Gb and G

I made some notes in parenthesis because it's a power chord with an odd interval, and I thought it didn't matter so much because the note only occurs one time. But I guess it should be counted anyway.

It's all metal, so it's basically powerchords with E mostly chunking in the background. So something with E probably. I have taken out every single note, this is not the powerchords. If you can tell me what key and modes this is, you'd totally make my day and I wouldn't need to ask anything more. If you want, I can tab the riff if you need to see how frequent each note is.


Thanks!
It sounds like it's in E minor. Play it and end on an E minor chord. See if it sounds "resolved" or "complete". With all the E chugging and the F#'s and not too many other sharp/flat notes that could just be accidentals, it sounds like E minor. I haven't heard it/played it so I don't know. But, check it by seeing if it resolves to E minor.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#35
Ok, I'll avoid diminished. The following is the riff I mentioned. So, is this chord progression correct in theory (I made the tab in PowerTab and inserted chord names above):


KEY: E MINOR

[color="DarkOrange"]FIRST RIFF:[/COLOR]

E MINOR (2 measures)
|---------------------------------|----------------------------------|
|---------------------------------|----------------------------------|
|---------------------------------|----------------------------------|
|-------------------------9-9-----|---------8-8-------------9-9------|
|-2-----------------------7-7-----|---------7-7-------------7-7------|
|-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-----0-0-|-0-0-0-0-----0-0-0-0-0-0-----0-0--|

D MAJOR (2 measures)
|---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
|---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
|---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
|---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
|-5-----------------------5-------|-6-------5-------3-------5-------|
|-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-|-4-4-4-4-3-3-3-3-1-1-1-1-3-3-3-3-|


[color="DarkOrange"]SECOND RIFF:[/COLOR]

E MINOR (2 measures)
|---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
|---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
|---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
|---------------------------------|-------------------------4-5-----|
|-2-----------------------4-5-----|---------5-4-------------2-3-----|
|-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-2-3-0-0-|-0-0-0-0-3-2-0-0-0-0-0-0-----0-0-|

B MINOR  (one measure)      C MAJOR (half measure) D# MINOR (half measure)
|---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
|---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
|---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
|-4-------------------------------|-5---------------9---------------|
|-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-|-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-|
|---------------------------------|---------------------------------|

[color="DarkOrange"]THIRD RIFF:[/COLOR]

E MINOR (2 measures)
|---------------------------------|-----------------------------------|
|---------------------------------|-----------------------------------|
|---------------------------------|-----------------------------------|
|-9-----------------------9-------|-10-------9-------8-------9--------|
|-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-|--7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7--|
|---------------------------------|-----------------------------------|

D MAJOR (one measure)      E MINOR (one measure)
|---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
|---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
|---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
|-7-----------------------7-------|-5-------4-------3-------4-------|
|-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-|-3-3-3-3-2-2-2-2-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-|
|---------------------------------|---------------------------------|

Actually, on that last measure, I thought E major sounded good, but if I want to follow the rules I'll stick with Emin.

So what do you think? Is this correct?

And also! On the second riff, last measure, I put a D# Minor in it (you know, D# is not in the minor scale, and well...) I know, but I thought it sounded good. If a music teacher (like you) would see this, and I wanted to follow the rules, should keep that or just make it C major like the rest of the measure?

Thanks man!!! This will probably be my last question.
#36
^I'm not a music teacher. I just want to be one. I definitely don't want to claim a title like that in a forum of people a lot more knowledgeable than myself.

No music teacher should tell you that you should change something just to make it fit in key. When you know the "guidelines" of theory, you can go off-track and know where you're going still - that's the beauty. You know why something is what it is so you don't have to stay inside some box. Your ear > everything else.

Remember that music theory isn't a set of rules but an explanation of music.

Definition of "theory" (source: dictionary.com)-

1. a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena


... So the "phenomena" is the music.


to the riffs...
----------------------------------------------------------------------


The third riff, labeled "D major" utilizes the G# powerchord. G# of course is the 3rd of E. A major third is what really defines the major tonality of something. That's a little play between the "parallel scales" of E major and E minor. The F5 could be said to be from parallel scale E phrygian.

Everything seems to stick to E minor. The end of the 2nd riff has that D# in there. D# is the leading tone of E. That's like the harmonic minor scale (minor scale with a natural 7th instead of a b7).

To conclude, it definitely looks like E minor. But, I haven't played it. (I'm a little lazy as I have eaten too much)
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#37
Quote by metal4all
^I'm not a music teacher. I just want to be one. I definitely don't want to claim a title like that in a forum of people a lot more knowledgeable than myself.

No music teacher should tell you that you should change something just to make it fit in key. When you know the "guidelines" of theory, you can go off-track and know where you're going still - that's the beauty. You know why something is what it is so you don't have to stay inside some box. Your ear > everything else.

Remember that music theory isn't a set of rules but an explanation of music.

Definition of "theory" (source: dictionary.com)-

1. a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena


... So the "phenomena" is the music.


to the riffs...

Alright, I'll let theory guide me, then let the ear decide. Btw, teaching isn't only about knowledge. It's about teaching knowledge.

Quote by metal4all

The third riff, labeled "D major" utilizes the G# powerchord. G# of course is the 3rd of E. A major third is what really defines the major tonality of something. That's a little play between the "parallel scales" of E major and E minor. The F5 could be said to be from parallel scale E phrygian.

Could you please explain that a little bit further? And also, I assume you mean the third measure of the first riff?

Quote by metal4all

Everything seems to stick to E minor. The end of the 2nd riff has that D# in there. D# is the leading tone of E. That's like the harmonic minor scale (minor scale with a natural 7th instead of a b7).

The D#... do you mean that it doesn't change the chord of the measure, only the scale if I wanna solo? So I'd use E harmonic minor scale if I wanna solo? Or there anything like an E harmonic minor chord?

Quote by metal4all

To conclude, it definitely looks like E minor. But, I haven't played it. (I'm a little lazy as I have eaten too much)

You mean key or chord (probably key but anyway)?


Thanks! And also, you won't need to play it, this riff is the exact same as the notes I posted earlier.
#38
Quote by VikingMetalhead
Quote by Me
A major third is what really defines the major tonality of something. That's a little play between the "parallel scales" of E major and E minor. The F5 could be said to be from parallel scale E phrygian.
Could you please explain that a little bit further? And also, I assume you mean the third measure of the first riff?

I meant the third riff (considering I said, "third riff" ).

I was saying how there was a play between the parallel scales of E major and E minor. Parallel scales are scales that have the same root note but are different scales (example: C major + C minor, D melodic minor + D natural minor).

Anywho, what I meant by the "play between major and minor tonality" is that G# isn't in the key of E minor (which your riffs are), G natural is in the key of E minor. G# is the major 3rd of E minor. If you know your chord construction, you'll know that the only difference between a major triad and a minor triad is the 3rd. The 3rd is major in a major chord and flat in a minor chord. The same goes for scales. Minor scales have b3's (example: natural minor scale- 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7).

So, the G# brought a major tonality to a minor piece.

Quote by Me
Everything seems to stick to E minor. The end of the 2nd riff has that D# in there. D# is the leading tone of E. That's like the harmonic minor scale (minor scale with a natural 7th instead of a b7).
The D#... do you mean that it doesn't change the chord of the measure, only the scale if I wanna solo? So I'd use E harmonic minor scale if I wanna solo? Or there anything like an E harmonic minor chord?

I was just saying how the D# note is borrowed from the E harmonic minor scale (because D# isn't in the key of E minor but IS in E harmonic minor because harmonic minor is the natural minor scale with a natural 7th). It doesn't really change anything. It's just an accidental in the piece really. If you were soloing over it you might want to go to harmonic minor there instead of natural minor but that's it.

Harmonic minor chord? Not that I know of (but I don't know much). You can build chords from the harmonic minor scale (but you can do that with any other scale too). That's just like how the major scales chords are MmmMMmd, if you were to write something inside the harmonic minor scale as if it were a key, you would build chords in thirds just how it's done with the major scale. That's pretty uncommon though according to other MT regs but I do crap like that.

Quote by Me
To conclude, it definitely looks like E minor. But, I haven't played it. (I'm a little lazy as I have eaten too much)
You mean key or chord (probably key but anyway)?

Yeah, key.

Blah, blah
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#39
Quote by Metal4all

Could you please explain that a little bit further? And also, I assume you mean the third measure of the first riff?

I meant the third riff (considering I said, "third riff" ).

But... there is no G# in the third riff. Only in the third measure of the first riff.

Thanks, got it! Is it okay to do this in theory? Or would another chord in that measure fit in better?

And doesn't the E minor chord have specific intervals in comparison between the minor modes? Or does it really belong to all minor modes?
And how do I get the degrees of the open E minor chord? Do I compare it with the E major scale?
#40
Quote by VikingMetalhead
But... there is no G# in the third riff. Only in the third measure of the first riff.


Fuck, I'm sorry, I guess I did mean 3rd measure


Thanks, got it! Is it okay to do this in theory? Or would another chord in that measure fit in better?


Again, theory isn't a set of rules. I was just saying what was going on (or what I see from it). Whatever sounds good to you is best. It doesn't matter if that means throwing a G#13-9+11 in something in the key of Bb minor.



And doesn't the E minor chord have specific intervals in comparison between the minor modes? Or does it really belong to all minor modes?

Como?

And how do I get the degrees of the open E minor chord? Do I compare it with the E major scale?

So... I take that to mean you don't know the intervals to chords (like: major chords have X intervals, minor chords have X intervals, etc.)? Or by degrees do you mean notes?


If the latter (which still implies not being able to build chords which I wouldn't mind helping you out with) you just take the intervals of the chord you want to build and take the roots' major scale.


That sounds a little confusing but it's not really after a lil practice.


So you want to build an E minor chord. Take the intervals of a minor chord (1, b3, 5) and apply them to the E major scale (because the note E is the root note) and you get:


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
E F# G# A B C# D# E

Now take the 1 3 and 5 and make the necessary changes (flatten the 3rd/lower a half-step).

1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 8
E F# G A B C# D# E

So you see, E G# B turn into E G B which is your E minor chord.
My message is not "too short" you stupid post nazi.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
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