IS there any possible theory behind the fact that you can start on the 12 fret e string or a and so on and go down the neck towards the head of the guitar resulting in pattern ef g a bc d e instead of it being e d cb a g fe??? I dont know everytime I try to find out some sort of pattern between sharps and flats i end up doing this and it leads me to trying to go into it further and then i get tired of trying to figure anything out. Im confused, I understand that the 1st 4th and 5th note in a major scale are used to make a major key but the idea of sharpening ever 5 notes and flattening every 4 confuses me. When I think about flattening I think about starting on a high note and going through the alphabet backwards getting lower and lower.
Last edited by rebel624 at Nov 18, 2008,
You've lost me, this doesn't make sense to me...
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lol i dont know it confuses me to
Yes there is.
The theory is that a certain fret on a certain string is 1 certain note.
On the E-string, the notes on the frets (starting on open and ending on 12th fret) are:
E F F# G G# A A# B C C# D D# E
So the answer to your question is: if you go 1 or 2 frets down, your sound will drop 1/2 or 1 tone. It will not rise 1/2 or 1 tone, nor will it drop nearly an octave.
It's the same question as asking if there is any possible theory behind the fact that if you start at 10 and count down to 0, that you'll result in a pattern 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 instead of being 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10.

Though I get the idea that I really don't get the question...
The answer might also be that there's more than the major scale (and I count lydian, frygian, doric, ionic, and all those ones as major scale. The notes are the same). You can choose to take any notes in a scale. Though the more exotic you get with that, the more our western ears will tell us that your playing is off.
Quote by Retro Rocker

....

haha

*wipes tear from eye*
Oh you're good.
The notes on the guitar are...

E F F# G Ab A Bb B C C# D Eb

that's basically it - whichever note you happen to be on that pattern tells you what else is around it.
Actually called Mark!

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I've probably not got the point of this at all but....sharpening a note means moving it up a semi-tone (or up one fret), and flattening it means moving it down a semi-tone (or down one fret)....

so if you're playing an A on the 5th fret of your E string you flatten it to G#/Ab by moving to the 4th fret, and sharpen it to A#/Bb by moving to the 6th fret....

Sorry if thats teaching you to suck eggs but thats the closest I could come to making sense of your question :P
Quote by rebel624
IS there any possible theory behind the fact that you can start on the 12 fret e string or a and so on and go down the neck towards the head of the guitar resulting in pattern ef g a bc d e instead of it being e d cb a g fe???

I don't know what you're saying here.

I dont know everytime I try to find out some sort of pattern between sharps and flats i end up doing this and it leads me to trying to go into it further and then i get tired of trying to figure anything out.

There's no pattern between sharps and flats in a specific key (one could argue that yes there is.. but it's not relevant here). There is one between different keys and I think that's what you're confused on.. and that's the circle of fifths. I suggest reading the theory sticky in this forum to understand that better.

Im confused, I understand that the 1st 4th and 5th note in a major scale are used to make a major key but the idea of sharpening ever 5 notes and flattening every 4 confuses me. When I think about flattening I think about starting on a high note and going through the alphabet backwards getting lower and lower.

I don't know where you got it in your head that the 1st, 4th, and 5th note make a major key.. but they don't. You're confusing one single key with the relationship between every key in the circle of fifths again here. In one key there is only a certain number of sharps or flats, end of story. The circle of fifths moves in fifths to the right, or fourths to the left, meaning if you start on C and move to the right, you get the key of G... again, read the theory sticky to get a better grip on that.
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Last edited by Thursdae at Nov 18, 2008,
Quote by steven seagull
The notes on the guitar are...

E F F# G Ab A Bb B C C# D Eb

that's basically it - whichever note you happen to be on that pattern tells you what else is around it.

This rang a bell xD
I think you're getting confused with sharps and flats. Well, we're not gonna go deep into the western music system and all that so just remember that a sharp is a note that's half a tone higher and a flat is a note that's half a tone lower.
So Cb = B, E# = F, G# = Ab
And don't mind about when to use a sharp or a flat yet, that's rlly not important xD
It won't affect how you sound. If you wanna get deep inside the music theory and stuff you can tell that sharps and flats aren't the same and that our entire music system is wrong but just don't listen to that xD. That would make it too hard on you to get it all right now
Quote by Retro Rocker

....

haha

*wipes tear from eye*
Oh you're good.
Not sure what you mean, but if you are starting at the nut, and you're on the E string, it goes up like the alphabet, only it repeats after G back to A.

E|--F--|--F#--|--G--|--G#--|--A--|--A#--|--B--|--C--|--C#--|--D--|--D#--|--E--|

(FRETS) 3RD 5TH 7TH 9TH 12TH

Dunno if that helps but I'm not sure I knew what you were trying to get at
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To conclude (yeah, I'm nagging): we all don't know what the hell you're talking about. But luckily, neither do you xD
Quote by Retro Rocker

....

haha

*wipes tear from eye*
Oh you're good.
ok if you have notes 1 - 12 EF F# G G# A A # BC C# D D# E
12 - 1 E Db D Cb CB Bb A Ab G Gb FE

but what if you counted 12 - 1 like EF F# G G# A A# BC C# D D# E ?? Wouldnt go behind the concept of all modes and theory itself ?

OR should I say 12 - 1 like EF Fb G Gb A Ab BC Cb D Db E

Even though this 12 - 1 E Db D Cb CB Bb A Ab G Gb FE is the correct way it seems to be some strange idea about going up and back down using the same notes.
Last edited by rebel624 at Nov 18, 2008,
You do know that those letters mean notes right?
As in a letter is a fixed sound?
Those letters aren't intervals between notes, they are the actual notes mate.
It has nothing to do with theory and modes or whatever, it's just that we had to give them notes a name if we wanted to work with them.
You wanna get music very relatively, and that's cool. But you're using the letters (that we use for notes) for intevals. Working with the intervals between notes is very important and every musician has to do it (cause that interval is what separates one note from another one and creates "music"), but musicians just decided to use numbers for the intervalls (to measure their size. An interval can be as big or small as you want, just name them like 2 octaves or half a tone, or even a quarter tone, which is an unplayable intervall on many instruments), and letters for the actual (absolute) notes.
Quote by Retro Rocker

....

haha

*wipes tear from eye*
Oh you're good.
yea i used the term notes on my last post its hard to explain go play ur guitar backwards and tell me if it dont seem wierd haha
and you edited again whilst I was typing xD
It's like having the idea to count from 10-0 like 10-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-0. The interval between each number stays 1 (unlike in music!), but nobody would get what the hell you're doing because those numbers have an absolute meaning.

And I see that you don't understand how sharps and flats work either cause...

Quote by rebel624
but what if you counted 12 - 1 like EF F# G G# A A# BC C# D D# E ?? Wouldnt go behind the concept of all modes and theory itself ?

OR should I say 12 - 1 like EF Fb G Gb A Ab BC Cb D Db E

A flat and a sharp aren't the same thing.
A flat (b) means going half a tone down. A sharp (#) means going half a tone up
So Fb = E
That last counting you did was E F E G F# A G# B C B D C# E, which is pretty rediculous xD. It's like you'd count down like this: 0 1 0 2 1.5 3 2.5 4 5 4...
With 0 being 10 and 4 being 6 in absolute numbers. Your system doesn't work

In short: doing the same things in a different time doesn't change those things.
imagine eating an apple, then a pear, then an orange and then a banana.
Then eat a banana, then an orange, then a pear, and then an apple. Your pear didn't suddenly change into an orange because it was the 2nd fruit you ate,you just ate the pear later.
Quote by Retro Rocker

....

haha

*wipes tear from eye*
Oh you're good.
Last edited by Base Ics at Nov 18, 2008,
I didnt count like E F E G F# A G# B C B D C# E I said notes 12 - 1 E Db D Cb CB Bb A Ab G Gb FE is the correct but what if you did 12 - 1 like EF Fb G Gb A Ab BC Cb D Db E which is obviously just flat out no possible way incorrect because noone understands
Quote by rebel624
I didnt count like E F E G F# A G# B C B D C# E I said notes 12 - 1 E Db D Cb CB Bb A Ab G Gb FE is the correct but what if you did 12 - 1 like EF Fb G Gb A Ab BC Cb D Db E which is obviously just flat out no possible way incorrect because noone understands

of course its way incorrect..

12 fret E string is always going to be E
10 fret is always going to be D
8 fret is always going to be C
7 fret B
5 fret A
3 fret G
1 fret F
open E

its not just a random way of marking frets.. its what the actual pitch is.
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ok so a major key contains both the majors and minors such as C maj D min E min F maj G maj A min what whould B be Diminished?
Quote by rebel624
I didnt count like E F E G F# A G# B C B D C# E I said notes 12 - 1 E Db D Cb CB Bb A Ab G Gb FE is the correct but what if you did 12 - 1 like EF Fb G Gb A Ab BC Cb D Db E which is obviously just flat out no possible way incorrect because noone understands

Yes you did...
EF Fb G Gb A Ab BC Cb D Db E
=
E F E G F# A G# B C B D C# E

in tones that's +0.5 -0.5 +1.5 -0.5 +1.5 -0.5 +1.5 +0.5 -0.5 +1.5 -0.5 +1.5
In total that's going UP an octave. (6 whole tones).

And again, maybe you just don't get that notes are fix. A certain hight of tone is a certain note. A for example is 440Hz (or 220 or 880, we don't hear linear xD).
Tones are the difference between notes. There is no fix amount of Hz that is a whole tone, because the difference in Hz between whole tones gets bigger if you go higher. (again, because we don't hear linear). A tone is the difference we hear though, and it is for example the difference between D and E.
Quote by Retro Rocker

....

haha

*wipes tear from eye*
Oh you're good.
its wierd though because you can play scales backwards and stuff
oh sorry, i see yea i did that was a mistake i didnt catch. Change the flats to sharps and thats the point i wanted to get accross
C D EF G A BC is a major scale right?

Take the tone you wanna make ur chord with, the 3rd above that, and the 5th above that.
For C that's C E G. A major 3rd and a minor 3rd. That combination is called a major chord.
For D that's D F A. A minor 3rd and then a major 3rd. That combination is called a minor chord.
For B that's B D F. A minor 3rd and then another minor 3rd. That combination is diminished, and you ppb won't ever use it anywhere unless you don't wanna make easy selling commercial music.
Quote by Retro Rocker

....

haha

*wipes tear from eye*
Oh you're good.
Quote by rebel624
oh sorry, i see yea i did that was a mistake i didnt catch. Change the flats to sharps and thats the point i wanted to get accross

Aaaaaaah...

Well, a certain pattern is a certain scale. But that means that you won't always have only the notes in ur scale. Sometimes, ur gonna have a note that's right in between 2 notes (like between C and D). So that's either C# or Db (# means half a tone higher, b means half a tone lower. There is a whole tone between most notes, except between E and F and between B and C. There's half a tone between them).
So C# = Db. Musicians tend to only wanna have sharps OR flats in their scale, because that's easyer to read. So they pick the one that has the least sharps or flats in it to make it even easyer to read.

You should learn about the circle of 5ths for that xD.
Quote by Retro Rocker

....

haha

*wipes tear from eye*
Oh you're good.
you meen a flat 3rd because thouse are just notes which are put together to make the chord and a not can be neither minor nor major. so for example Dmin = DFbA 1st note, flat 3rd note, and 5th note of major scale 1 b3 5 Dmaj = DFA 1st 2nd and 3rd note
Quote by rebel624
you meen a flat 3rd because thouse are just notes which are put together to make the chord and a not can be neither minor nor major. so for example Dmin = DFbA 1st note, flat 3rd note, and 5th note of major scale 1 b3 5 Dmaj = DFA 1st 2nd and 3rd note

No, a chord is a note, the 3rd above that in your scale, and the 5th above it.
Now what you said there isn't right.
Dm = DFA (C D E F G A B C)
D = D F# A

And again, Fb = E (you rlly have trouble with flats and sharps ey?)
so DFbA should be Dsus2 (C D E F G A B C)
Quote by Retro Rocker

....

haha

*wipes tear from eye*
Oh you're good.
Quote by rebel624
ok so a major key contains both the majors and minors such as C maj D min E min F maj G maj A min what whould B be Diminished?

It's not really about keys...the notes on the guitar are what they are. More specifically, the pitches are what they are.

I'll concede that depending on what key you're PLAYING in, as determined by the chords you're playing over then yes, some notes will have different names but the pattern is always the same.

Now, to make things easier people often count up in sharps but down in flats, but any sharps or flats are enharmonic - that means the same pitch can have different names depending on it's function within a scale...

so counting up the neck you could use

------------------------>
Headstock E F F# G G# A A# B C C# D D# E
etc....

and counting down towards the nut you could refer to them as

<-----------------------
Headstock E F Gb G Ab A Bb B C Db D Eb E

however in terms of pitch

Gb=F#
Ab=G#
Bb=A#
Db=C#
Eb=D#

each of those pairs sound the same and are played at the same fret, it's just that the name you use depends on the context.
Actually called Mark!

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Last edited by steven seagull at Nov 18, 2008,
lol shows how much I know I need to study my circle of fifths for or something cuz all I have memorized well is major scale of G has 1 sharp and Major scale of C has none
If you want to use stuff like the circle of 5ths effectively then the first thing you need to do is learn where the notes are on the fretboard, otherwise you've got no way of translating that instrument to ther guitar.
Actually called Mark!

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yea i can understand everything you say but it takes me for ever when i try to think further around the wheel I need to know it right off my head. One thing I was wondering is dus that sus2 formula work throughout all major scales such as C D E F G A B 2nd flat 4th and 6th? So A Cb E = gsus2

No, G sus2 is G D A

the root, 5th and 2nd of the G major scale

Base Ics - you're really confusing matters here, you're trying to derive chords with a D root from the intervals of the C major scale and that's not going to work.

The D major scale is

D E F♯ G A B C♯

SO a D major chord is
D E F♯ G A B C♯

D minor is

D E F G A B C♯

...notice the flat 3rd, F instead of F#

and D sus 2 is

D E F♯ G A B C♯

root, 2nd and 5th of the scale
Actually called Mark!

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Last edited by steven seagull at Nov 18, 2008,
k woops so in the scale A B C# D E F # G # A B E would be asus2 ?
Quote by rebel624
k woops so in the scale A B C# D E F # G # A B E would be asus2 ?

yep!
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Quote by rebel624
k woops so in the scale A B C# D E F # G # A B E would be asus2 ?

Yes, those are the notes ot the A major scale, and an A sus2 chord contains the root, 2nd and 5th.
Actually called Mark!

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