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#1
Ok, I've been taught by my guitar teacher that:

3rds and 6ths are Consonant intervals
2nds, 7ths, and the Aug5/Dim4 are Dissonant intervals
4th and 5th are Perfect intervals

But when I play the quality of the interval, some don't sound as consonant or dissonant as I was taught. Say for example, a M3 does sound consonant to me, but the m3 sounds a tad off; M2 sounds like it's stable, unlike its brother.

Is it merely the context of how the interval is played makes it consonant or dissonant?
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#3
Quote by Freepower
^ Well, yes - sort of - but that's not the point.

What exactly do you disagree with your teacher over?

That all consonant intervals sound what they are and all dissonant intervals sound what they are.
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#4
It's called theory for a reason. Dissonant intervals should sound bad to everyone, but some people prefer the sound of certain intervals. Also, the context in which they are presented has some effect on how you perceive them.

A good example is in SRV's song - Leave my little girl alone - he uses a 6th in the chorus that just sounds mean, powerful, and challenging all at once. Anywhere else on the fretboard, at any other time, it doesn't sound quite as good, but it just beats the hell out of me every time I hear it. Check it out at around 4:00 of this video (watch the whole thing though ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQsqRBCXiuw
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#5


Well, you won't get any disagreement there.

I suppose your green is green, eh?

What's your problem? He says X intervals are consonant/dissonant and you agree but think that the m3 isn't THAT consonant?
#6
Yeah, he combined to different things...

there are 4 different types of qualities 2nds, 3rds, 6ths, and 7ths:
dim min Maj Augmented

there are only 3 different qualities for 4ths 5ths and 8ths (octaves):
dim Perfect Augmented

Dissonance and consonance relies on the listener, but usually dissonance occurs with m2nds or the tritone. We hear those and kind of cringe or get tense, where as with the other kinds we don't as much.

There are some schools of thought that certain elements cause dissonance (remember, dissonance isn't just intervals). Things such as parallel fifths (because of their hollow, unresoluted sound), unresolved dominant chords, really anything that causes tension.

There are exceptions to everything, but for the most part that's that. If you ever wonder if it sounds dissonant or consonant, just use your ears. I believe that everything is personal taste, nowadays.

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#7
Quote by Freepower


Well, you won't get any disagreement there.

I suppose your green is green, eh?

What's your problem? He says X intervals are consonant/dissonant and you agree but think that the m3 isn't THAT consonant?

To me it is. How can I identify those intervals to sound like how they're categorized?
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#8
^ identify them? Just understand that

3rds and 6ths are considered to be Consonant intervals etc.

No-one gives a flying one if you love tritones and b2s, but this is the accepted form for consonant and dissonant intervals.
#9
It's called theory for a reason. Dissonant intervals should sound bad to everyone, but some people prefer the sound of certain intervals. Also, the context in which they are presented has some effect on how you perceive them.


First of all, you don't know what "theory" means. Second, you don't seem to understand what "dissonant" means either. It is not synonymous with "bad".
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#10
Quote by Archeo Avis
[dissonance] is not synonymous with "bad".

Then how am I supposed to perceive what dissonance really is? Something that wants to resolve? That M2 doesn't feel like it wants to resolve, while that m3 does. Well, to me.
If you play guitar, please don't waste your time in The Pit, and please instead educate yourself in the Musician Talk forum, where you can be missing out on valuable info.
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#11
Yes dissonance is about resolution. Intervals are all about musical sensitivity. Each interval has its own "personality." All intervals want to resolve to either an octave, a perfect fifth, or a perfect fourth. The minor 2nd should be more dissonant than a minor 3rd, but again its all about the chemistry between the notes and developing musical sensitivity. A good way to develop this is to listen to lots of classical and baroque and try to predict the harmonic resolution...try to pick out where it sounds "happy" and where it sounds "sad."
#12
also a minor 3rd in harmony with the root note will sound more dissonant compared to a harmony with the 5th than it would if it was following a tritone (flat 5th/sharp 4th) or some other spastic sounding interval, just like if you compare something thats grey to something thats white the grey would look darker than if it was compared to something black. make sense? no?

I have a hard time explaining theory just play around with it because you have to remember that any rules or theorys about music are simply the best words we can find to describe the sounds, the only way to truely learn this stuff it is by understanding the sounds as opposed to understanding the words we come up with to try to explain it
#13
Quote by nick_kcin
also a minor 3rd in harmony with the root note will sound more dissonant compared to a harmony with the 5th than it would if it was following a tritone (flat 5th/sharp 4th) or some other spastic sounding interval, just like if you compare something thats grey to something thats white the grey would look darker than if it was compared to something black. make sense? no?
What?

Classical harmony rules usual suggest more minor third intervals than fifth intervals and more tritone intervals than fourths or fifths or anything (except sixths and thirds). For the past 600 years, guys have been suggesting other guys to use tritones. They are not spastic sounding if they're used right, like if they're used on weak beats and if they're resolved. They actually sound better than fifths if they're used right, just listen to almost any Bach song.
#14
they're always spastic sounding but that doesn't mean you can't find a good use for them.
also you obviously don't really understand the physics of music and harmony

EDIT:
and you probably don't know much about music theory at all if you're arguing that a 5th is more dissonant than a minor 3rd. please don't talk **** because people are trying to learn and you will only confuse them
Last edited by nick_kcin at Nov 20, 2008,
#15
intervals can have different effects depending on the timbre of instrument you play them on

some instruments are vastly richer in harmonic overtones than others... so a C and and Eb played together on a synthesiser that's just producing a sine wave will have a totally different sound than the same pitched notes played using the bridge pickup of a Les Paul through a cranked Marshall... because the overdriven guitar's harmonic overtones for those two notes will produce much more 'complex wave phase interaction activity' type stuff

so, expect some intervals on some instruments to sound different to the same intervals played on others
out of here
#16
and you probably don't know much about music theory at all if you're arguing that a 5th is more dissonant than a minor 3rd. please don't talk **** because people are trying to learn and you will only confuse them


What are you talking about? No one claimed that a fifth was dissonant.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#17
Quote by nick_kcin
they're always spastic sounding but that doesn't mean you can't find a good use for them.
also you obviously don't really understand the physics of music and harmony

EDIT:
and you probably don't know much about music theory at all if you're arguing that a 5th is more dissonant than a minor 3rd. please don't talk **** because people are trying to learn and you will only confuse them
COUNTERPOINT do you understand? Obviously not.

If you study any Bach song (love that guy, pretty much rewrote music theory) you would see barely any harmonic perfect fifths and more harmonic tritones than perfect fifths and more harmonic sixths/thirds than tritones. Harmonic perfect fifths wouldn't usually be used more than once in a bar, whereas Bach could have used as many tritones as he wanted.

I'm not confusing anyone by stating the truth. If you use tritones right (resolve them, use them on weak beats), they sound good. Saying things like "tritones are spastic" (do you know what spastic means? do you realise how many people you have unnecessarilly insulted?) is misleading and leads to the perpetuation of such rumours like "tritones were banned before rock and roll" and "tritones are the devils interval." Completely bullshit.

BTW, you're not going to last long here if all you do is insult people and cite theories like "physics behind music" and tell people to harmonize the **** they want .
Well my theory I'm citing works, it's called counterpoint and has been use practically with purpose for the past 600 years.
#18
love that guy, pretty much rewrote music theory


I appreciate his music as much as anyone, but as a composer he was quite traditional.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#19
Quote by Archeo Avis
I appreciate his music as much as anyone, but as a composer he was quite traditional.
Actually, "modern counterpoint" (not the kind you learn in university, I don't think) is mostly based off his work, especially his two part inventions. Traditional 16th century counterpoint is alot stricter than his version of counterpoint. Well, from what I've read anyway.
Last edited by demonofthenight at Nov 20, 2008,
#20
there are physical reasons for why musical notes sound consonant or dissonant which you obviously don't understand, I don't even know how the **** you started talking about half of that **** anyway it had nothing to do with what I was trying to say. and yes you can harmonize however the **** you want, I don't see why you objected to that so much
#21
Quote by demonofthenight
Actually, "modern counterpoint" (not the kind you learn in university, I don't think) is mostly based of his work, especially his two part inventions. Traditional 16th century counterpoint is alot stricter than his version of counterpoint. Well, from what I've read anyway.


It's true that he's considered to have explored counterpoint nearly to the furthest extent possible, but his music was still strongly rooted in the traditions of the period.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#22
Quote by nick_kcin
there are physical reasons for why musical notes sound consonant or dissonant which you obviously don't understand, I don't even know how the **** you started talking about half of that **** anyway it had nothing to do with what I was trying to say. and yes you can harmonize however the **** you want, I don't see why you objected to that so much
Okay, you've surpassed idiotic and now I can't believe you're not a troll.

The only reason musical notes sound consonant or dissonant is completely due to how they've been used in the last 1000 years. Before the 1500's, perfect fourths were seen as a good consonance. Yet after the 1500's most classical guys would avoid perfect fourths.
Quote by Archeo
It's true that he's considered to have explored counterpoint nearly to the furthest extent possible, but his music was still strongly rooted in the traditions of the period.
When I listen to Bach and when I listen to Vivaldi I can really hear the difference. Vivaldi sounds so... lame?

But yeah, I remember reading that some classical teachers of his time ignored his work for contrapuctual studying as it didn't follow tradition counterpoint rules. He also did alot of chromatism, which was mostly avoided in traditional counterpoint.
#23
Quote by SilverDark
Then how am I supposed to perceive what dissonance really is? Something that wants to resolve? That M2 doesn't feel like it wants to resolve, while that m3 does. Well, to me.
The definition of dissonance IS something that wants to resolve.


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Last edited by metal4all at Nov 20, 2008,
#24
The only reason musical notes sound consonant or dissonant is completely due to how they've been used in the last 1000 years. Before the 1500's, perfect fourths were seen as a good consonance. Yet after the 1500's most classical guys would avoid perfect fourths

what the ****? you're a ****ing idiot man. just shut the **** up you don't have a ****ing clue so shut your ****ing mouth you dickhead, people are trying to learn and assholes like you that say **** for the sake of being mr I know everything just leads to them being confused. I can't even believe you just said that, you must be completely ****ing mentally retarded.
at least I know why you took offence to me using the word spastic now, I didn't mean to bring back traumatic childhood memories
#25
Quote by nick_kcin
what the ****? you're a ****ing idiot man. just shut the **** up you don't have a ****ing clue so shut your ****ing mouth you dickhead, people are trying to learn and assholes like you that say **** for the sake of being mr I know everything just leads to them being confused. I can't even believe you just said that, you must be completely ****ing mentally retarded.
at least I know why you took offence to me using the word spastic now, I didn't mean to bring back traumatic childhood memories


Reported. The only thing worse than an asshole is a clueless asshole, and you have no idea what you're talking about.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#26
I think conssonance and dissonance share a fine line between the musical theory side and the theory of sound.

In the theory sound, Dissonant is where the vibrating air of the 2 notes clash. In musical theory it's what is accepted by a guy who made the theory about musical connsonance and dissonance 100's of years ago, and what is used as a reference or base of today's musical theories.

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#27
In musical theory it's what is accepted by a guy who made the theory about musical connsonance and dissonance 100's of years ago, and what is used as a reference or base of today's musical theories.


This is simply not true. Conventions regarding dissonance have changed dramatically over the course of Western music (and music in general), and differ enormously between musical circles.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#28
Quote by Archeo Avis
This is simply not true. Conventions regarding dissonance have changed dramatically over the course of Western music (and music in general), and differ enormously between musical circles.


Yes, I should of formulated different. I meant what all the guys in the past 100;s of years came up with and what was accepted by the general public up to date. Of course it's changing, without assholes (in the not degrading form of the word) coming up with new ideas, the world would be a very boring place.

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#29
In the theory sound, Dissonant is where the vibrating air of the 2 notes clash

yes, thank you, and its peoples interperetation of the physics of sound that lead them to come up with these theories, it all comes back to the sounds
Conventions regarding dissonance have changed dramatically over the course of Western music (and music in general), and differ enormously between musical circles

yes thats true but regardless of any rules and theories the sounds have always remained the same and again it all comes down to interperetation

also I'd say I slightly over reacted before but hey some people need to be told

and Its pretty unfair to say I'm 'clueless' as I'm a guitar teacher, and no not just some ****ty $5 an hour lessons for a few of my friends I teach at a music school
#30
Quote by nick_kcin
I'd say I slightly over reacted before but hey some people need to be told

and Its pretty unfair to say I'm 'clueless' as I'm a guitar teacher, and no not just some ****ty $5 an hour lessons for a few of my friends I teach at a music school
Cursing someone out in a very chill place is "slightly over reacted"?
Oh, and you must be a great teacher saying things like "you obviously don't really understand the physics of music and harmony" and "there are physical reasons for why musical notes sound consonant or dissonant which you obviously don't understand".

I REALLY hope you don't treat your students like that.


I don't want to get involved, I'm just saying that some actions in this thread were too much and immature (not just you). Keep it friendly for the sake of MT, please .
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


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#31
yeah point taken, although I didn't get the 'very chill' feeling from a couple of people here who were being quite condecending. also if my students argued with me when they have no idea what they're talking about like he was I tell them to shut up and listen to me! fortunately they don't though so theres not a problem. He really doesn't have a clue and was insulting me first (immature again I know but hey) so I don't see why I should be kind and understanding but ok that was quite over the top and I will behave myself more in future
#32
^It's hard to portray "chill" when all we have to work with are words.
And I do know what I'm talking about. I've spent months of my own time studying counterpoint. It might seem confusing to you and I might not be a teacher, but that certainly doesn't make me wrong
Quote by metal4all
Cursing someone out in a very chill place
I like MT this way. There used to be alot more arguing and insulting and that wasn't cool.

I guess I really don't like the airwaves clashing theory because it means there is an unobjectable, unsituational (as in music today sounds different to music from 2000 years ago) right and wrong about theory. I like to think the unobjectable elements of music are slowly changing throughout time.

It sort of makes sense because you'll barely ever seen direct harmonic m2's in any western song but intervals like tritones which have either a 45:32 or a 64:45 ratio (well something weird and nasty) will be used heaps in every style of music from blues to classical. Sure it's still classified as a dissonance (meaning it needs to resolve), but it's still a more preferred interval than the perfect fifth in classical music.
Last edited by demonofthenight at Nov 20, 2008,
#33
Quote by demonofthenight
^It's hard to portray "chill" when all we have to work with are words.
And I do know what I'm talking about. I've spent months of my own time studying counterpoint. It might seem confusing to you and I might not be a teacher, but that certainly doesn't make me wrongI like MT this way. There used to be alot more arguing and insulting and that wasn't cool.

I guess I really don't like the airwaves clashing theory because it means there is an unobjectable, unsituational (as in music today sounds different to music from 2000 years ago) right and wrong about theory. I like to think the unobjectable elements of music are slowly changing throughout time.


Well airwaves have always been the same, It comes down to interpretation. But that's what music is all about. Interpretation of emotions that music has on each person. I said there was a fine line between musical theory and how the sound dissonace worked. The abbrasive sound of a diminished interval can be traced back to how the ear reacts on those clashing sound waves as unpleasant. I mean people like diminished, but if u play diminished on a 20 stack marshall wall, I;m sure the ground will rumble. Which wouldn't take away the idea why diminished and dissonance alot of times go hand to hand with metal music. Diminished only works because of how it resolves. Because feeling is relative. And if u go from something very bad to something very good it has a way bigger impact.
Or in this case something very dissonant to something very consonnant.

For example a Billionaire getting 10k wouldn't make a big deal out if it, but If I got 10k I would totally be excited. New amp's and guitars woohoo.

If you would listen on the same volume to a Diminished chord and a major chord, u will get a headace from the diminished 1 first. That's just how it naturally is. The ear can't take those clashes for a long period of time. That's probably the reason why Locrian is hardly used as a modal progression. It's just too tiring for the ear.

That's also probably why a Ballad is almost never, or not that I've heard so far written in a diminished key. Diminished is generally unpleasant, while a ballad generally is intended to be the opposite. Unless you had sex the first time to a death metal band in the background, it could evoke an emotion of love

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Nov 20, 2008,
#34
what the ****? you're a ****ing idiot man. just shut the **** up you don't have a ****ing clue so shut your ****ing mouth you dickhead, people are trying to learn and assholes like you that say **** for the sake of being mr I know everything just leads to them being confused. I can't even believe you just said that, you must be completely ****ing mentally retarded.
at least I know why you took offence to me using the word spastic now, I didn't mean to bring back traumatic childhood memories


The funny thing is, the post you're disagreeing with is totally correct...
#35
Quote by Freepower
The funny thing is, the post you're disagreeing with is totally correct...


Ah he apologized in another post. Everyone goes ape at least once in his life. No insult intended

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#36
Oh, I've gone ape more than once, and not just on UG. I was just pointing out that the particular thing he was disagreeing with was totally correct and well documented. I appreciate the apology and I'd seen it. Sorry if it seemed like I was stirring the ****.
#37
Quote by Freepower
Oh, I've gone ape more than once, and not just on UG. I was just pointing out that the particular thing he was disagreeing with was totally correct and well documented. I appreciate the apology and I'd seen it. Sorry if it seemed like I was stirring the ****.


Oh no nothing towards you lol. I just posted it with no intention to clear it up Ur doing a good job as A mod.

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#38
Quote by Archeo Avis
I appreciate his music as much as anyone, but as a composer he was quite traditional.


Well...then again he kinda defined what tradition meant didn't he? But he's definitely no Stravinsky. haha
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#39
...ok... Back to the issue at hand...

Quote by metal4all
The definition of dissonance IS something that wants to resolve.


(-Jazzology
By Robert Rawlins, Nor Eddine Bahha, Barrett Tagliarino)

...So it's all in listening to them closely and see how they feel like resolving, huh?
If you play guitar, please don't waste your time in The Pit, and please instead educate yourself in the Musician Talk forum, where you can be missing out on valuable info.
Quote by DiminishedFifth
It's like you read my mind!

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#40
Quote by KryptNet
Well...then again he kinda defined what tradition meant didn't he? But he's definitely no Stravinsky. haha


Not really. His works were pretty much within the confines of the conventions of his predecessors.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
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