#1
Amazing jazz guitarist, one of my favorites. I was wondering if anyone knew what scale/modes he played.
#2
Check out some of his scores/tabs to figure out

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#4
Did...did you just as "what scale" a jazz guitarist played?
Jazz doesn't work that way.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#5
Quote by Doc Smiley
Amazing jazz guitarist, one of my favorites. I was wondering if anyone knew what scale/modes he played.
He did use alot of altered dominant licks, but I agree with archeo.

Although he liked his #2's and b5's (who in jazz doesn't?), he would have also used every mode from ionian to phrygian. You sort of have to use the right mode for the right situation (I'm talking about a playing the changes sort of thing). Like, even if you like dorian more than any other mode, you might sound a bit strange if you tried to play dorian over majorseventh chords.
#6
Quote by demonofthenight
He did use alot of altered dominant licks, but I agree with archeo.

Although he liked his #2's and b5's (who in jazz doesn't?), he would have also used every mode from ionian to phrygian. You sort of have to use the right mode for the right situation (I'm talking about a playing the changes sort of thing). Like, even if you like dorian more than any other mode, you might sound a bit strange if you tried to play dorian over majorseventh chords.


Thanks man this helps a lot. Thanks for the website rnelson.
#7
Find the sheet music or just learn his solos by ear. My favorite one is probably four on six. There is a rad whole step movement lick in there.

This is really the only way to learn to play like a player. Learn some licks, get a feel for how he phrases, and hit the backing tracks.
#8
Quote by Archeo Avis
Did...did you just as "what scale" a jazz guitarist played?
Jazz doesn't work that way.


This.

Your best shot is to try to get into his mind and understand why he plays something instead of what he plays. This will yield far better results, in terms of any aspect in his music.

Take a look at imitators of well known guitar players. They can play every solo by them, have exactly the same sound, and same chops, but it's not the same. It's because they approach it wrong.

The analyze what they play instead why they play it. That's why you never get a perfect match untill u can get inside their head.

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#9
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Take a look at imitators of well known guitar players. They can play every solo by them, have exactly the same sound, and same chops, but it's not the same. It's because they approach it wrong.
I like how some guys view musicianship purely in the playing sense. Like, if someone can play everything Wes plays they must be as good as Wes. Personally I think if someone can create as well as Wes and still show as much originaliy as Wes did than they are as good as Wes (which is mostly subjective).

And to contribute to the thread, I noticed in alot of Wes's dominant licks (see here) he uses alot of m2 intervals (to the chord playing), which is sort of quirky. It might just be a mistaken as this site says he would continue his ii ideas over the V chords (in jazz, ii chords are often used before and after V chords). This would probably make sense because the m2 over a V chord (lets say we are in C major, that makes this note an Ab) is the b5'th over an ii chord (so thats an Ab over a D minor chord), which is a very common note in jazz.
#10
Quote by demonofthenight
I like how some guys view musicianship purely in the playing sense. Like, if someone can play everything Wes plays they must be as good as Wes. Personally I think if someone can create as well as Wes and still show as much originaliy as Wes did than they are as good as Wes (which is mostly subjective).


Did you read my post a bit further?

Like I said I'm more about why. If you know exactly Why he plays something, in theory you could write exactly something in his style.

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#11
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Did you read my post a bit further?

Like I said I'm more about why. If you know exactly Why he plays something, in theory you could write exactly something in his style.
I know, I know. It's just a mentallity alot of guitarist I know have. Not insulting you, just commenting on a recurrent attitude you brought to the table.
#12
Imitating Wes is a bit like imitating Parker - You do it because they were the masters but after a point you'll need to develop your own sound. As Mingus said:

"If Charlie Parker was a gunslinger there'd be an awful lot of dead copycats"


It should be noted though that Wes was rather fond of the good old "blues scale".
#13
Quote by Nick_
Imitating Wes is a bit like imitating Parker - You do it because they were the masters but after a point you'll need to develop your own sound. As Mingus said:

"If Charlie Parker was a gunslinger there'd be an awful lot of dead copycats"


It should be noted though that Wes was rather fond of the good old "blues scale".



Very true, but it should be noted that imitating someone like parker or Montgomery (or anyone) doesn't in any way deter one from developing their own sound.

Quotes like that one from Mingus would lead some people to believe that they should avoid imitating others or else they will become a "copycat". Personally, I think it sends a negative message and I don't think anyone should avoid that important developmental step.

Quote by Archeo Avis
Did...did you just as "what scale" a jazz guitarist played?
Jazz doesn't work that way.


No particular style of music works that way.

(you obviously know this but I want to make sure the TS doesnt think that the concept is limited to Jazz).

TS:

Learn the actual music, not just the scale. The best way to learn about a particular style, is to learn how to play the actual music. Learning about superficial aspects like scales or chords will help to a degree, but you need the whole picture.

Learn some Wes guitar parts. After a while, you wont have to ask here. You'll just know.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Nov 20, 2008,
#14
Quote by demonofthenight
I know, I know. It's just a mentallity alot of guitarist I know have. Not insulting you, just commenting on a recurrent attitude you brought to the table.


I don't take any as insults, otherwise I wouldn't have replied

And my english is not that good; I don't know what recurrent means

The reason why i look at something why someone plays it, is also why I listen to alot of artists.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Nov 20, 2008,
#15
It depends on what you imitate. With both parker and wes there people everywhere who sounded nearly the same, just not as good or fresh. You avoid that because the original has you beat (hence the "dead copycats")

By all means learn from them, copy their mannerisms. When you're jamming and you bust out some gliding octaves with your thumb, that's cool. Even in a performance, here and there. But don't base your sound around it, use it as spice.
#16
Quote by xxdarrenxx
I don't take any as insults, otherwise I wouldn't have replied

And my english is not that good; I don't know what recurrent means

The reason why i look at something why someone plays it, is also why I listen to alot of artists.
Damn you have good english for a second language. I honestly thought you were from an english speaking country (untill I looked at your location underneath your avatar).

I don't like the word copy or imitate, I like "influence" and "inspired" better.
#17
Quote by demonofthenight
Damn you have good english for a second language. I honestly thought you were from an english speaking country (untill I looked at your location underneath your avatar).

I don't like the word copy or imitate, I like "influence" and "inspired" better.


OH ye my lack of words

Well I'm actually half british, it's just that i mix those languages together in real life.

Example:

I was 5 years old and when a red car drove by, my dad would say look it's red auto (auto = dutch for car) and my mom would say look it's a rood car (rood = dutch for red)
Something like that. So i know some very advanced english sometimes, and I also forget the easiest words in english. This also happens in Dutch. Same goes for grammar, I sometimes use english words in dutch grammar and vice versa.

Just to clear it up

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#18
Wolf Marshall has done some very nice note-for-note transcriptions (along with analysis)
of a lot of Montgomery's stuff. In my profile I recorded his version of "Yesterdays" using
the transcription (it's at about 80% performance tempo -- I stopped working on it a while
ago). IMO, it's a great way to get into his stuff. Doing it all on your own by ear, would
be very very hard and probably error-prone. This way you still get all the nuances by
someone with a good ear for the stuff. Even getting all the rhythms and notes correct
when it's all written out for you is still plenty hard.
#19
Quote by Archeo Avis
Did...did you just as "what scale" a jazz guitarist played?
Jazz doesn't work that way.


Why not? If you choose a chord-scale approach to Jazz like many pianists do, there is always a scale that goes with each chord, progression, substitution, or in general tonality. Like say you can think of a tri-tone substitution as a sign to play a Dom-Dim scale. That is, if you want to approach it that way. I'm not to sold on this approach but there are a lot of players who approach jazz playing simply from a scale point of view.
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#20
Quote by Nick_
It depends on what you imitate. With both parker and wes there people everywhere who sounded nearly the same, just not as good or fresh. You avoid that because the original has you beat (hence the "dead copycats")

By all means learn from them, copy their mannerisms. When you're jamming and you bust out some gliding octaves with your thumb, that's cool. Even in a performance, here and there. But don't base your sound around it, use it as spice.


I agree that limiting your influences to just one or two artists where you end up sounding so much like them as to be indistinguishable from the original (or less good as you suggest), is something to avoid. However I would say the solution is simply imitate more people so that you have more styles to draw from.

When you hear Eric Johnson do the "Wes" thing, there is no question as to who you're listening to. you know it's not Wes Montgomery, even though you know what he's doing is influenced by Wes. that's because Eric Johnson had many more influences, and is an original and creative person himself.

I think a creative/ artistic person has enough sense (and a personal desire) to do their own thing, so even if they've developed part of their craft by imitating the work of very well-known/ iconic figures, they still end up sounding like themselves.

Some people just aren't that creative.

Anyway, my overall point is simply that one shouldn't avoid the imitation aspect of developing their playing skills. I think some people are afraid that if they spend time copying other people it will make them somehow less original. My opinion is that this notion is completely false. There is alot to be gained by mimicking the styles of the players that inspire us.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Nov 20, 2008,