#1
So lets talk about Bebop Language. How do you all approach the bebop idiom? Personally I try to emulate the sound and feel of the period using whatever comes to my fingers. Licks just never made sense on guitar to me. Opinions?
The hip cat says; "Mhm, okay, I can groove wit' this"
#3
I am certainly guilty of cribbing some of the classic parker / gillespie licks and structures - the way they played, there are a lot of recurring figures that just scream bebop. They're fun to bust out in jam sessions.

Imitate, then innovate. I wouldn't pay to see someone play exactly like parker - I can just listen to recordings, they're better. I want to see and hear something new and personal.
#4
I agree, only so many times you can hear the same ii-V lick and still be entertained.
The hip cat says; "Mhm, okay, I can groove wit' this"
#5
Quote by Nick_
I am certainly guilty of cribbing some of the classic parker / gillespie licks and structures - the way they played, there are a lot of recurring figures that just scream bebop. They're fun to bust out in jam sessions.

Imitate, then innovate. I wouldn't pay to see someone play exactly like parker - I can just listen to recordings, they're better. I want to see and hear something new and personal.


Definitely. I also(I got into Bebop like 2 months ago) really try to focus on what notes I will be hitting on a fast run. That is to say, I do my best to try not to run a scale simply from tonic to tonic or do the boring C,D,E,F - D,E,F,G thing in say a 1 bar eighth note run. Added note scales, (the bebop scale, duh) and atonal scales going in and out of arpeggios really gets cools bebopy sounds IMO. I always loved Johnny Smith(check him out if you're not familiar with his work) and I try to emulate his stuff. Easier said then done!
Gear:
Inflatable Guitar
Digitech GSP 2101/Mosvalve 962/Yamaha S412V
My Imagination
#6
Quote by wisegrasshopper
listen to "im a scat man" whilst watching scat-porn its beboppy i promise you delphy delschchshc


I know nothing about bebop, so I'll agree with him.

scibby dibby bup budupbup ...... bup budup bup
#7
Quote by KryptNet
Definitely. I also(I got into Bebop like 2 months ago) really try to focus on what notes I will be hitting on a fast run. That is to say, I do my best to try not to run a scale simply from tonic to tonic or do the boring C,D,E,F - D,E,F,G thing in say a 1 bar eighth note run. Added note scales, (the bebop scale, duh) and atonal scales going in and out of arpeggios really gets cools bebopy sounds IMO. I always loved Johnny Smith(check him out if you're not familiar with his work) and I try to emulate his stuff. Easier said then done!


Johnny Smith is the greatest. But he's less bebop and more cool sounding. He does blow on some pretty fast tunes though. His method for chords is awesome.
Quote by allislost
I would say that aetherspear speaks nothing but the truth.
UG Blues Group
UG Reggae & Dub Group
Need Professional Mixing for cheap? Need Vinyl to Digital Transfers? PM Me.
#8
I really love bop (From what little I've heard) I have a bit of Dizzy and Parker around. But, how do you actually classify bop, is it a certain style of music, or is it just music from a certian timeline (Im aware its a sub-genre of jazz).

The only things I am knowledge-able about bop wise is

The Bebop scales

Bebop Dominant: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7
Bebop Dorian: 1 2 b3 3 4 5 6 b7
Bebop Major: 1 2 3 4 5 #5 6 7
Bebop Melodic Minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 #5 6 7
Bebop Harmonic Minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 7

And a msuic theory link about the exact ways chromatics are used in Bop.
#9
The bebop scales come from use (they're really just a way of using chromatic PTs to make the chord tones fall on the beat) but won't make you sound like a bopper.

Bop in the original is what parker, gillespie, powell, monk and others were playing in the forties - by 1950 it began to split. You could see hard bop as the closest descendant. I consider the album Giant Steps (1960) to be the "end" of bop (Trane pretty much did there all that there is to be done). Certainly after that and to this day people are playing the original bop styles but not in any innovative way.
#10
What a dispassionant view on bop . Dizzy always said (untill he died) that he played bop and you can hear some elements of pop in Miles Davis's and Coltranes cool jazz years. Even today, the improv solos me and the rest of my band do have alot of bop influence (untill all the kids who couldn't tongue a major scale started joining). Probably not as innovative as Coltrane, Davis, Dizzy or Parker though.

Anyway, those "bop" scales are missing the best part of bop, the flat fifth. The bebop dominant is missing a #2, which is also farly important to bop and possibly a minor sixth (I could have sworn I've heard Coltrane use a couple). I'd also add a natural seventh to "bebop dorian" as a chromatic passing note. Actually, you think we could rename the whole chromatic scale to the bebop scale?

To derail the thread slightly, anyone got some tips to writing bop progressions?
#11
The bop scales, on their own, I understand are mostly useless.

I read something on Chromatics in Bop, when went something along the lines of:

Any chord tone can be preceeded by a note a half-step below.
i.e B - C, D# - E, F# - G, A# - B. The chord tones usually fall on the beats, while the preceeding tones usually fall on the & (in other words, you make sure you chord tones fall on the beat to help you swing harder).

Any chord tone can also be approached by a note a Half-Step above, or a Whole-Step above. This needs more clarification however.

The root, 3rd, and 5th or a Major 7th chord can be approached by a note a Whole-Step above, i.e D- C, F# - E, and A- G. All chord tones of a Minor 7 chord can be approached by a note a Whole-Step above, D- C, F- Eb, A - G, and C - Bb. The root, 5th and 7th of a Dominant 7 chord can be approached by a note a Whole-Step above, D - C, A - G and C - Bb.

To create the "embellished whole step scale approach" (strange name) insert a half-step in between the Scale tone and the chord tone it is targeting

After I read that, it definatley expanded my soloing. Apparently Dizzy used to use a whole lot of that, can anyone verify if that is correct?
#12
Consider spending some time in the Jaco Pastorius school of music - "Transcribe Parker and figure out why it sounds so good" instead of trying to compile rules. You won't sound bebop if you just learn all off the note choice guidelines: They were developed to describe it, not to create it.

Anyway it's generally diatonic above chromatic below although you can certainly go chromatic above too.
#13
But, how do you actually classify bop, is it a certain style of music, or is it just music from a certian timeline (Im aware its a sub-genre of jazz).

The way I see it is that Bop was the sound and movement that was the backlash to the swing bands that totally dominated the 30's to 40's. It was the doorway to more freedom of expression. Characteristics being: alternate rhythms, complex harmonies, faster playing. The whole point was to make sure that you couldn't dance to it like swing. People like Parker, Dizzie, Monk, and Roach really wanted Jazz that was solely for listening and not for dance halls and parties.

Anyway, obviously these guys designated the sound of what a purist would call Bebop Music... but I simply see it as the pivot point into Miles and Coltrane that well, kinda lead to Jazz going everywhere all at once. So we end up with avant-garde, fusion and kenny g all at the same time. haha
Gear:
Inflatable Guitar
Digitech GSP 2101/Mosvalve 962/Yamaha S412V
My Imagination
#14
Nick_: What musicians would you describe as Bebop than? I'll try and start transcribing some suff. Theolonius Monk? Coltrane? Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers? Dizzy Gillespie?

The only two Parker albums I've got are:

The Charlie Parker Story [Savoy 2003]
The Essential Charlie Parker

Would they do fine for starters?
#15
Quote by Galvanise69
Nick_: What musicians would you describe as Bebop than? I'll try and start transcribing some suff. Theolonius Monk? Coltrane? Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers? Dizzy Gillespie?

The only two Parker albums I've got are:

The Charlie Parker Story [Savoy 2003]
The Essential Charlie Parker

Would they do fine for starters?



I'd suggest Parker, early Trane, early Miles, Coleman Hawkins, Count Basie, Chet Baker, Cannonball Adderley, and Dexter Gordon. Some of these guys have a lot of cool jazz tunes, but go with things pre-1960 and you're pretty much safely in the Bebop/ Hard Bob era.
The hip cat says; "Mhm, okay, I can groove wit' this"
#16
They'll be fine. Do you have his take of Ko-Ko on there (2:55 long is the one I mean)? I'd consider it the standard of the Bebop language. It's fine if you don't, almost all of his work works.


Monk is considered bebop because he was the house pianist in the club were it was birthed by Gillespie & co and gave a lot to the developing style. His music is very different from Gillespie's though, very much ahead of its time.

Coltrane I'd call hard bop up until Giant Steps, where he began his climb into the avant-garde. Hard bop for the Jazz Messenger lineups from the 50s and 60s (the one with Lee Morgan & Wayne Shorter is my personal favourite)

Dizzy is definitely Bebop, although he did a lot with afro / cuban rhythms and sounds - which may be a bit much if you're just trying to get into the sound.


hmm Hawkins and Lester Young are a great look at how swing/dance bridged into bop, but I wouldn't really call them bop. Basie is pure swing, although his rhythm section is basically the definition of how swinging should be accomplished. Chet, well, I love chet, but in the world of bop/hard bop trumpet there are more to emulate - Clifford Brown and Lee Morgan to start. The rest I agree with. Especially Cannonball. His sense of melody is just so.
Last edited by Nick_ at Nov 23, 2008,
#17
I've got Parker, Trane, Miles, Some Coleman, some Count Basie, dont think any Chet Baker, I've got Sides of Blue, which has Cannonball Adderly, hav'nt got any Dexter Gordon.

What do you classify as eary trane? I've got A Love Supreme, Sun Ship, The Major Works of John Coltrane, and Bahia. I've also got a Best of.
#18
I've got Parkers Koko, and I'll start with that. Im pretty weak on actually being able to transcribe, so hopefully this'll help. It is the 2:55 one. Anything I actualyl end up transcribing, I'll chuck up here, for you guys to verify.
#19
Actually sorry pick something slower to start transcribing. Parker's Mood, perhaps.

Blue Trane has Lee Morgan and is excellent hard bop. Monk/Trane At Carnegie hall is recently released and is absolutely brilliant. You already have Bahia, it's from the still Boppin' era, before Giant Steps, which you should get. Otherwise, just pick up as much of Miles' first quintet stuff as possible (I suggest starting with the Walkin', Steamin', etc set). A Love Supreme is brilliant and may be the last album of his that you might have a chance getting a non-jazz fan to listen to - after that, it got a bit crazy, like in Sun Ship (pick up Ascension though).
#20
I dont actually have Parkers Mood. Is there anything else in particular?

If Koko's to crazy, Ill leave that alone. I've got about 13 Davis albums? Are there any good Bop lines in any of Davis'es stuff? Stuff, that I could actually have a chance at transcribing?
#21
Hot House is nicely medium, and a nice tune, but it has minor ii-Vs which'll be a bit tougher then a basic blues or rhythm changes. Yardbird Suite's a good tempo, if you have it. Scrapple from the Apple is a nice one, and it's a simplified rhythm change tune, which is an important form to learn. If you have Ah-Leu-Cha it's a great tempo and a great piece, and stylistically might be a fun diversion (work a different part of your ear, hearing two lines play at once). Billies Bounce and Blues for Alice are real good blueses, the first more traditional.

You'll have at least one of those in the Essential, I should hope.


Davis' first quintet is so worth listening so much too and stealing from it's just not even fair (but then, his second quintet is just as monumental to the post-bop style, his fusion lineups to fusion, him to music in general, etc). With transcribing Davis the trouble is not finding the notes and basic rhythms but getting the articulations, intonations, rhythmic subtleties (Miles is the the antonym of square rhythm), and pure sounds. Coltrane (in Miles' quintet) was more restrained than in his own work but still lays down some very difficult lines that you might need to slow down to hear. But definitely worth transcribing.