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#1
When you listen to live movies and albums, you notice that some songs have their key changed.
A couple of examples that I notice is when Van Halen up the key during Jump (I personally don't like it) or when Michael Jackson lowers Beat it (I like this though).

Do you like it when artists change the sound to make them sound different from the album?
Should they follow the original sound?

I think they should, Led Zeppelin's reunion live proved that dropping keys are effective and it sounded good.
By all means do it.
#2
There's probably a practical reason behind the changes in key. Robert Plant can't reach as high as he could back in the '70s, so they dropped the keys to stop him having a heart attack.
#4
Muse always play Starlight near the end of a show, so they change the key to Bb because they're tired by that stage.

It's brilliant, it lends it a darker, more "Muse" tone
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#5
It's usually not on purpose, but just to make it easier.

When you're playing live, you don't have the luxury of time on your hands, and mistakes are made so much easier.

That's usually why an artist will change the key because as it is their either dancing around or trying to play another instrument.

So it's just a reasonable compromise.
#6
Quote by blue_strat
There's probably a practical reason behind the changes in key. Robert Plant can't reach as high as he could back in the '70s, so they dropped the keys to stop him having a heart attack.


That's true, but I think they made a good decision.
It didn't work for Stairway to Heaven, sounded too bluesy in melody, but worked perfectly for Black Dog, Rock and Roll, Song Remains the Same, and others.

I just felt like I could associate more with these songs that I already know.
The O2 reunion live recordings by cheap cameras on youtube sounded more "21st century" because of their catchier melody, but that's just me.

That is why I am dying for a reunion album.
#7
Quote by dgme92
Muse always play Starlight near the end of a show, so they change the key to Bb because they're tired by that stage.

It's brilliant, it lends it a darker, more "Muse" tone


One semi-tone lower doesn't do **** to the tone. You wouldn't even know it was lower unless you compared it to the studio version side by side.
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#8
Quote by JamesDouglas
One semi-tone lower doesn't do **** to the tone. You wouldn't even know it was lower unless you compared it to the studio version side by side.

Or you've got a good ear. It sounds lower played live, and if somebody could tell without having the two side by side you don't need to get ratty over it
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#9
metallica, they lower like every song they have pretty much, well most of their old stuff
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#10
Quote by dudester410
metallica, they lower like every song they have pretty much, well most of their old stuff


I liked it when they do that to Ride the Lightning
#11
Quote by dgme92
Or you've got a good ear. It sounds lower played live, and if somebody could tell without having the two side by side you don't need to get ratty over it


Even if you could tell the difference between one semi tone without comparing it to the original it still doesn't do anything to the tone. One semi-tone lower doesn't make anything darker.
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#12
Quote by JamesDouglas
One semi-tone lower doesn't do **** to the tone. You wouldn't even know it was lower unless you compared it to the studio version side by side.

incorrect.

Quote by JamesDouglas
Even if you could tell the difference between one semi tone without comparing it to the original it still doesn't do anything to the tone. One semi-tone lower doesn't make anything darker.

even more incorrect.
#13
Quote by JamesDouglas
Even if you could tell the difference between one semi tone without comparing it to the original it still doesn't do anything to the tone. One semi-tone lower doesn't make anything darker.


U r def.

I'm with the other guy. A semi-tone can do a world of difference.
#14
Quote by JamesDouglas
Even if you could tell the difference between one semi tone without comparing it to the original it still doesn't do anything to the tone. One semi-tone lower doesn't make anything darker.


Well that's your opinion right?
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#15
Quote by JamesDouglas
Even if you could tell the difference between one semi tone without comparing it to the original it still doesn't do anything to the tone. One semi-tone lower doesn't make anything darker.


It does.

Often, lowering a song with a semi-tone gives it another feel.
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#16
*sigh*

As much as you guys are totally right because you quote me and then write 'incorrect' I still think it's a bunch of crap that lowering a song a semi-tone makes it sound more Muse like.

Basically you're saying that Muse's characteristic sound is 'being lower.'

EDIT: I also don't believe that that guy was able to tell the song was a semi-tone lower without comparing it to the studio version, unless he happens to have perfect pitch.
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, your eyes will get sore after a while."
#17
Quote by JamesDouglas
One semi-tone lower doesn't do **** to the tone. You wouldn't even know it was lower unless you compared it to the studio version side by side.




half a step is not a semitone. And it DOES make a noticable difference
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#19
Quote by JamesDouglas
Even if you could tell the difference between one semi tone without comparing it to the original it still doesn't do anything to the tone. One semi-tone lower doesn't make anything darker.


Wrong. So wrong.

Grab a piano (or a pianist, if you're not one yourself). Play the beginner's version of moonlight sonata (in C minor). Now play the version as Beethoven wrote it (C# Minor).

Actually does make a world of difference. Because of equal temperament (the standardisation of semitones), no two keys are equal - the harmonics which are prodiced by different keys are different, and the distances between notes are also measurably different within different scales in terms of microtones, so the sound is actually different, in a quantifiable way.
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#21
Quote by JamesDouglas
*sigh*

As much as you guys are totally right because you quote me and then write 'incorrect' I still think it's a bunch of crap that lowering a song a semi-tone makes it sound more Muse like.

Basically you're saying that Muse's characteristic sound is 'being lower.'

good job completely changing your point there. that's awesome. so cool.

no you were saying that key changes don't affect a tone at all. one bit. no way. this is, of course, bullshit. now it doesn't add tone like modes do. phrygian, lydian, etc.

but it can definitely nuance the mood.
#24
Quote by phatsack


half a step is not a semitone. And it DOES make a noticable difference


What's B to Bb?

Quote by toasted_lemming
Wrong. So wrong.

Grab a piano (or a pianist, if you're not one yourself). Play the beginner's version of moonlight sonata (in C minor). Now play the version as Beethoven wrote it (C# Minor).

Actually does make a world of difference. Because of equal temperament (the standardisation of semitones), no two keys are equal - the harmonics which are prodiced by different keys are different, and the distances between notes are also measurably different within different scales in terms of microtones, so the sound is actually different, in a quantifiable way.


There's a difference when the song is one instrument - it makes it a lot easier to hear. Not when it's an entire band with vocals and distortion etc.

I'm not saying different keys don't have different feels, I'm saying one semi-tone lower doesn't make a noticeable 'darker' difference to a song.

Quote by That-Funny-Guy
good job completely changing your point there. that's awesome. so cool.

no you were saying that key changes don't affect a tone at all. one bit. no way. this is, of course, bullshit. now it doesn't add tone like modes do. phrygian, lydian, etc.

but it can definitely nuance the mood.


I never outright said key changes don't affect tone. If the song was changed from Bb Major to G Major than it would make a huge difference, but moving all the chords down one fret doesn't do ****. That's what I'm saying.

Stop acting like a pretentious douche; "oh, that one semi-tone speaks to my soul!"
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Last edited by JamesDouglas at Nov 22, 2008,
#25
Quote by phatsack


half a step is not a semitone. And it DOES make a noticable difference


I'm gonna have to go with the other guy here, I wouldn't notice **** if a GnR played their songs in Eb or E.
#28
Quote by Nilpferdkoenig
I'm gonna have to go with the other guy here, I wouldn't notice **** if a GnR played their songs in Eb or E.

Try play the Mr. Brownstone riff in E, then Eb. You'll see, it makes a huge difference.
Quote by JamesDouglas

I never outright said key changes don't affect tone. If the song was changed from Bb Major to G Major than it would make a huge difference, but moving all the chords down one fret doesn't do ****. That's what I'm saying.

Stop acting like a pretentious douche; "oh, that one semi-tone speaks to my soul!
Quote by JamesDouglas
One semi-tone lower doesn't do **** to the tone. You wouldn't even know it was lower unless you compared it to the studio version side by side.

You've really gotta quit contradicting yourself.
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#29
Quote by That-Funny-Guy
then leave.
or learn.


urrr... I made this thread?

And someone please come up with a cited proof to end this useless quarrel.
#30
Quote by JamesDouglas
There's a difference when the song is one instrument - it makes it a lot easier to hear. Not when it's an entire band with vocals and distortion etc.

I'm not saying different keys don't have different feels, I'm saying one semi-tone lower doesn't make a noticeable 'darker' difference to a song.


I think what you're actually saying is that you doubt whether someone could ascertain the differences between two keys a semitone apart in a live situation, and also taking issue with the use of such a subjective term as 'darker' to express the difference between the two if it was audible.

Since both these things are a matter of total opinion (one person may hear a difference which you can't - people's experiences of music are different, a friend of mine experiences synaesthesia, and would definitely be able to tell you the difference just in colour, and one person may express their impression of the difference between B and Bb as Bb being 'darker', in a subjective sense) then I don't see any point in continuing the conversation - there are quantifiable differences which could account for an observable difference in feel, but these differences cannot validate or invalidate any subjective conclusions drawn from observation of them.
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#31
Bands usually do that to suit their vocalist. 1 semitone doesn't make a world of difference when you are out there listenning to it live. To sit and compare youtube videos to the original recording however is different.

But then again, every key has a different feel. Generally, (<- keyword) E works well with minor, C works well with Major, G# works well with Blues, F is pure evil... etc etc...
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#32
Quote by dgme92
Try play the Mr. Brownstone riff in E, then Eb. You'll see, it makes a huge difference.


I did notice a difference between them when I played it in the two different keys in a 20 second time span but I wouldn't notice it if it suddenly changed in my Itunes or something.
#33
Quote by dgme92
Try play the Mr. Brownstone riff in E, then Eb. You'll see, it makes a huge difference.

You've really gotta quit contradicting yourself.


Listen here you pretentious prick: I said several times that I don't deny that modulation change the feel of a song but that one semi-tone will not make a noticeable difference.

Stop showing off, no one is impressed that you're pretending to be able to hear a difference.

Quote by radomu
urrr... I made this thread?

And someone please come up with a cited proof to end this useless quarrel.


You want objective proof stating how key changes should make people feel?

Quote by Nilpferdkoenig
I did notice a difference between them when I played it in the two different keys in a 20 second time span but I wouldn't notice it if it suddenly changed in my Itunes or something.


This is absolutely all I'm saying.
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, your eyes will get sore after a while."
Last edited by JamesDouglas at Nov 22, 2008,
#34
Quote by JamesDouglas

You want objective proof stating how key changes should make people feel?


Oh, that's what you are arguing about?

Then why argue over that, that's up to people's preferences.
It's stupid and illogical to call people deaf when they gain hope and excitement from a minor key, that's what they like.
#35
I notice when songs are not played in their regular key, regardless if I hear them back to back or not.
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#36
Quote by JamesDouglas
You want objective proof stating how key changes should make people feel?


No, probably more something like that the pitch variations are noticable to the human ear, when a 120 DB loud rockband plays its song in a different key.
#38
Quote by JamesDouglas
Listen here you pretentious prick: I said several times that I don't deny that modulation change the feel of a song but that one semi-tone will not make a noticeable difference.

Stop showing off, no one is impressed that you're pretending to be able to hear a difference.

I honestly feel like reporting this post, because you're only resorting to name-calling and childish measures now. Note, I reserve the right to report this and any future offensive posts of yours.

I never claimed I was better than anybody, and several people who posted here agree with me that a semitone can make a big difference.

Quit being so argumentative, I'm just backing up my point, you're ramming the same one down my throat. Please, be polite and I may listen to you more attentatively.
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#39
Quote by Nilpferdkoenig
No, probably more something like that the pitch variations are noticable to the human ear, when a 120 DB loud rockband plays its song in a different key.


Obviously a semi-tone is more than noticeable to the human ear, but it needs to be compared to something. And then there's still the matter of it making it more dark and 'Muse like.' That last bit is just too stupid.

Quote by dgme92
I honestly feel like reporting this post, because you're only resorting to name-calling and childish measures now.

I never claimed I was better than anybody, and several people who posted here agree with me that a semitone can make a big difference.

Quit being so argumentative, I'm just backing up my point, you're ramming the same one down my throat. Please, be polite and I may listen to you more attentatively.


I really don't care if you listen to what I say, not that you were, just putting words in my mouth and pretending to have super human abilities.
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#40
Quote by TEK34
Jonas Brothers play in a lower key, sounds heavy as f*ck.


That's because they are untalented brothers that are just handsome and hired by disney
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