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#3
I can see that some of the arguments for taser use make sense but I think that this is the correct decision.
#4
Demonstrates that fear mongering by the media is the most dangerous weapon of all.

Tasers are a remarkably good solution to some of the problems of policing but just because a few bad cops ****ed up, now they have a negative connotation and the ignorant public sees them as a form of tyranny.
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Quote by SG thrasher

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#5
I never liked the idea of tasers...
While they may be useful when dealing with criminals carrying guns, gun crime isn't high over here like in the US so they're not really needed. A taser is unnecessary in my eyes/
Quote by Renka
OddOneOut is an Essex S&M mistress and not a pirate or a computer program.

#7
Quote by OddOneOut
A taser is unnecessary in my eyes/


Would you rather they pull out a gun then?
A taser is just a safer replacement for a gun really
What I just said is a lie.
#8
Quote by OddOneOut
I never liked the idea of tasers...
While they may be useful when dealing with criminals carrying guns, gun crime isn't high over here like in the US so they're not really needed. A taser is unnecessary in my eyes/


Tasers are one of the best/safest tools against knife-wielding criminals.
Survivor of the St. John's Lockdown
Quote by SG thrasher

The thread-starter is a legend.
Seriously, who thinks "Shit, i'm gonna die, BRB, Ima' tell UG."?

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Congratz man, you are a true, American Hero.
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#9
Good. They have CS gas to deal with people with weapons and as Johnny Knoxville has shown, it is the most effective.
#10
Quote by Greenie_777
Good. They have CS gas to deal with people with weapons and as Johnny Knoxville has shown, it is the most effective.


Do you actually think CS gas is a better alternative to tasers in apprehending a single violent suspect, especially in a crowded area? Shows what you know.
Survivor of the St. John's Lockdown
Quote by SG thrasher

The thread-starter is a legend.
Seriously, who thinks "Shit, i'm gonna die, BRB, Ima' tell UG."?

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Go Schneiderman!

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#11
Quote by Schneiderman
Do you actually think CS gas is a better alternative to tasers in apprehending a single violent suspect, especially in a crowded area? Shows what you know.


I'd rather a couple of people coughing and eyes watering than killing someone by accident.
#12
F**k the tasers bring out the tesla coils!


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#13
Quote by Greenie_777
I'd rather a couple of people coughing and eyes watering than killing someone by accident.

CS gas can also be deadly, this is the unfortunate thing with tasers, CS gas, rubber bullets etc. People are affected differently.
#14
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2714675.stm

These alternatives are called "less-lethal" for a reason. With proper usage the likelihood of fatality is very, very low. The problem is not with the weapons but with the training and the individuals using them. Taser related deaths are merely a sympton of a bigger problem, and rejecting tasers DOES NOT do anything to solve that problem.

Edit: also CS gas is worse because it does in fact produce lasting damage when used "properly". A properly used taser doesn't.
Survivor of the St. John's Lockdown
Quote by SG thrasher

The thread-starter is a legend.
Seriously, who thinks "Shit, i'm gonna die, BRB, Ima' tell UG."?

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Congratz man, you are a true, American Hero.
Go Schneiderman!

Gun Facts: Educate Yourself
Last edited by Schneiderman at Nov 25, 2008,
#15
Quote by hownowbrowncow
Would you rather they pull out a gun then?
A taser is just a safer replacement for a gun really

Our police (Try) to work on a more respect based approach. So the use of guns and tasers is unnecessary to that.
The point is, we don't want every Tom, Dick and Harry in the force to have Tasers.
#16
Quote by hownowbrowncow
Would you rather they pull out a gun then?
A taser is just a safer replacement for a gun really

Most UK officers do not carry a gun. Armed units are called in to deal with people wielding guns.

Quote by Schneiderman
Tasers are one of the best/safest tools against knife-wielding criminals.

That's why all officers are required to wear stab proof vests and their training covers dealing with knife-wielding criminals because knife crime is quite common over here. There's also the dog units. According to my friend who's in the specials (volunteer force) most criminals are more scared of the dogs than the officers.
Quote by Renka
OddOneOut is an Essex S&M mistress and not a pirate or a computer program.

Last edited by OddOneOut at Nov 25, 2008,
#17
Quote by OddOneOut

That's why all officers are required to wear stab proof vests and their training covers dealing with knife-wielding criminals because knife crime is quite common over here.


OK, that's a particular level of defense. A taser is another level of defense. The trade-off is the possibility of injury or death if the taser is used improperly. But if you believe that an officer's level of training in unarmed resistance to a knife attack is sufficient, what makes you think that their level of taser training would be insufficient? Or, if you think their level of taser training could never be sufficient, what makes you think their unarmed defense training is sufficient?

Edit: I realize there are special units charged with reacting to special circumstances but they only work under certain conditions- specifically, when there is time, which is not always available. If an individual is attacking people with a gun or knife RIGHT NOW, a response is needed RIGHT NOW. Not waiting for a special response unit while people are getting shot and stabbed.
Survivor of the St. John's Lockdown
Quote by SG thrasher

The thread-starter is a legend.
Seriously, who thinks "Shit, i'm gonna die, BRB, Ima' tell UG."?

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Congratz man, you are a true, American Hero.
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Last edited by Schneiderman at Nov 25, 2008,
#18
Quote by Schneiderman
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2714675.stm

These alternatives are called "less-lethal" for a reason. With proper usage the likelihood of fatality is very, very low. The problem is not with the weapons but with the training and the individuals using them. Taser related deaths are merely a sympton of a bigger problem, and rejecting tasers DOES NOT do anything to solve that problem.

Edit: also CS gas is worse because it does in fact produce lasting damage when used "properly". A properly used taser doesn't.

Did you even bother reading the article I posted? It explicitly said that tasers were used by trained officers and the rejection by the met was an offer to award tasers to all members of the police service. In this case I think rejecting tasers does solve the problem. Also, just because it's called 'less lethal' doesn't mean it actually is. There have been numerous incidences in which people have been killed by taser use. You also say taser related deaths are merely a symptom of a bigger problem. What problem would that be? The met don't need tasers, we don't have crime in Britain like you yanks do.
Quote by Schneiderman
But if you believe that an officer's level of training in unarmed resistance to a knife attack is sufficient, what makes you think that their level of taser training would be insufficient? Or, if you think their level of taser training could never be sufficient, what makes you think their unarmed defense training is sufficient?

Far easier to train somebody to avoid unnecessary injury without a taser than with. The moment you put a taser into a power happy sadist you know sparks are going to fly and brains are going to fry.
Last edited by blynd_snyper at Nov 25, 2008,
#19
we don't have crime in Britain like you yanks do.


lol

Yeah, there have been numerous incidents where poorly trained police, many of whom are such poor officers that they should not have been hired in the first place, have killed people by using their tasers improperly. The conclusion that tasers are the problem does not follow from the premises.

The moment you put a taser into a power happy sadist you know sparks are going to fly and brains are going to fry.


Don't hire power happy sadists then.

(solve the problem, not the symptom)
Survivor of the St. John's Lockdown
Quote by SG thrasher

The thread-starter is a legend.
Seriously, who thinks "Shit, i'm gonna die, BRB, Ima' tell UG."?

Quote by The_Paranoia

Congratz man, you are a true, American Hero.
Go Schneiderman!

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#20
well even if you have been trained tazers stop pacemakers. they also interfere with lots of other medical devices. so you can be trained all day long and still kill someone with them.
#23
Quote by jymellis
well even if you have been trained tazers stop pacemakers. they also interfere with lots of other medical devices. so you can be trained all day long and still kill someone with them.


Yeah man. With the amount of people tasers have killed they may as well shoot the bad guy in the leg than taser him/her. Tasers havn't been tested enough. Why? because nobody will volunteer to get tasted because there's likelihood you'll die! I'm epileptic if some dick head cop ever tasers me and I die, I'm gonna be pretty pissed
#24
Quote by Schneiderman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkfkQcb45Lo&feature=related

Is this a problem with the taser or the officer?

Officer shouldn't have been hired, should never have been given a taser. It's a combination, unfortunately the far simpler solution to keeping the police in check is to limit their capacity to harm, while increasing their capacity to keep themselves alive. This system works far better then performing extensive background checks which will never pick everything up. An example of this would be the case of a soldier who was tried for murdering an Indian man working as a waiter at an Indian restaurant. He performed this crime while a teenager and still managed to get into the armed forces.
#25
Its a good thing, if i were ever to get in trouble with the police (pretty unlikely) i could say "DON'T TAZE ME BRO!"
#26
Quote by Schneiderman
OK, that's a particular level of defense. A taser is another level of defense. The trade-off is the possibility of injury or death if the taser is used improperly. But if you believe that an officer's level of training in unarmed resistance to a knife attack is sufficient, what makes you think that their level of taser training would be insufficient? Or, if you think their level of taser training could never be sufficient, what makes you think their unarmed defense training is sufficient?

I never said anything about insufficient taser training.
In fact I haven't mentioned anything about the possibility of injury or death from tasers. Please stop jumping to conclusions.

I think that the methods currently used by police are sufficient. They're certainly not afraid to use their batons. The need for tasers is not great in this country. Tasers deployed 600 times, yet only used 93 times in the past year. A quick search on google shows only 1 reported incident in my county where a taser was used.

Tasers may be needed in the US and Canada, but not over here.
Quote by Renka
OddOneOut is an Essex S&M mistress and not a pirate or a computer program.

#28
Quote by Stingray5
Yeah man. With the amount of people tasers have killed they may as well shoot the bad guy in the leg than taser him/her. Tasers havn't been tested enough. Why? because nobody will volunteer to get tasted because there's likelihood you'll die! I'm epileptic if some dick head cop ever tasers me and I die, I'm gonna be pretty pissed


This might not be the case everywhere but most departments in the US require that an officer be tased before he is allowed to carry a taser (it is part of the training).

Officer shouldn't have been hired, should never have been given a taser. It's a combination, unfortunately the far simpler solution to keeping the police in check is to limit their capacity to harm, while increasing their capacity to keep themselves alive. This system works far better then performing extensive background checks which will never pick everything up. An example of this would be the case of a soldier who was tried for murdering an Indian man working as a waiter at an Indian restaurant. He performed this crime while a teenager and still managed to get into the armed forces.


The military has nothing to do with the police force so don't compare the two.

Among the many reasons why so many public institutions and agencies are faulty is because nobody wants to address the real problems. Banning tasers does not solve anything. Yeah, duh, taser abuse will go down because they will no longer be a factor but that doesn't mean officer abuse will go down... physical brutality would likely replace it and there's a possibility that police shootings could go up as a result. In short, trying to alleviate things by removing a symptom doesn't solve anything. It usually makes things worse. Overall, the adoption of tasers has done more good than bad. But there are so many other variables at play that their effect can not be attributed solely to their existence.
Survivor of the St. John's Lockdown
Quote by SG thrasher

The thread-starter is a legend.
Seriously, who thinks "Shit, i'm gonna die, BRB, Ima' tell UG."?

Quote by The_Paranoia

Congratz man, you are a true, American Hero.
Go Schneiderman!

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#29
I like that your avatar is moving at the exact tempo as my music.

Also I'm glad.

RMF


I was much further out than you thought
And not waving but drowning.
I was much too far out all my life
And not waving but drowning.
#30
The military has nothing to do with the police force so don't compare the two.

For the purpose of this discussion they are the same, they are a group of people given access to weaponry and that example highlights why back ground checks don't always work. You can't stop the racists and the nutters from joining the police force, so don't issue 'em tasers.
Among the many reasons why so many public institutions and agencies are faulty is because nobody wants to address the real problems. Banning tasers does not solve anything. Yeah, duh, taser abuse will go down because they will no longer be a factor but that doesn't mean officer abuse will go down... physical brutality would likely replace it

Takes a lot more effort to beat somebody to death with a truncheon, not to mention you've got to know that you're killing him. You can kill somebody accidentally far more easily if you have a taser.
and there's a possibility that police shootings could go up as a result.

This is Britain, we have 2 guns to share among the entire population.
In short, trying to alleviate things by removing a symptom doesn't solve anything. It usually makes things worse. Overall, the adoption of tasers has done more good than bad.

If by more good than bad you mean alienate the public, drop trust in the police force, and allow the deaths of numerous innocent citizens then sure.

Also, this isn't alleviating a symptom, you can't use that comparison as the combination of tasers and crap police officers is what results in deaths, not one nor the other explicitly, as you can't reduce the number of crap officers you shouldn't give them lethal weapons.
Last edited by blynd_snyper at Nov 25, 2008,
#31
Quote by Schneiderman
This might not be the case everywhere but most departments in the US require that an officer be tased before he is allowed to carry a taser (it is part of the training).


The military has nothing to do with the police force so don't compare the two.

Among the many reasons why so many public institutions and agencies are faulty is because nobody wants to address the real problems. Banning tasers does not solve anything. Yeah, duh, taser abuse will go down because they will no longer be a factor but that doesn't mean officer abuse will go down... physical brutality would likely replace it and there's a possibility that police shootings could go up as a result. In short, trying to alleviate things by removing a symptom doesn't solve anything. It usually makes things worse. Overall, the adoption of tasers has done more good than bad. But there are so many other variables at play that their effect can not be attributed solely to their existence.

Since police shootings aren't exactly high and tasers aren't in full use around the country, this is irrelevant. There's no proof that the use of tasers in this country has lowered the crime rate. (Suffice to say, theres not enough tasers to make a significant difference) But police shootings would not increase as a result of getting rid of the tasers considering how much they are used currently.
Quote by Renka
OddOneOut is an Essex S&M mistress and not a pirate or a computer program.

#32
Your position reeks of taint from the media which would have you believe that every taser issued accounts for at least one death. In the US there are about half a million cases each year in which individuals are subject to the threat or use of force by police. There is no number available on what percentage of these involved a taser, but I do know that 99.7% of taser use results in either no injury at all or only the injury from falling down: scrapes or bruises.

Studies reveal that US cities which adopted tasers as a widescale replacement for firearms saw a significant drop in fatalities resulting from use of force by police.

The reason tasers deaths are seen as an epidemic is because every time one happens- which honestly is rare in the grand scheme of things- the media goes bat **** insane and ignorant masses of idiots campaign against them. When in reality they are no more dangerous than any other tools that police use.

Obviously issues are different in the UK because there, tasers would not be replacing firearms. However, opinions there are influenced by what happens here and what happens here is terribly distorted by the media and by popular opinion. Basically, you are not dealing with facts and reason, you are dealing with the uninformed ramblings of the ignorant masses.
Survivor of the St. John's Lockdown
Quote by SG thrasher

The thread-starter is a legend.
Seriously, who thinks "Shit, i'm gonna die, BRB, Ima' tell UG."?

Quote by The_Paranoia

Congratz man, you are a true, American Hero.
Go Schneiderman!

Gun Facts: Educate Yourself
#33
There's no proof that the use of tasers in this country has lowered the crime rate.


That is not the goal of the adoption of tasers. It's not fair to blame something for not accomplishing that which it did not intend to accomplish. That's like punishing a man for neglecting somebody else's child.
Survivor of the St. John's Lockdown
Quote by SG thrasher

The thread-starter is a legend.
Seriously, who thinks "Shit, i'm gonna die, BRB, Ima' tell UG."?

Quote by The_Paranoia

Congratz man, you are a true, American Hero.
Go Schneiderman!

Gun Facts: Educate Yourself
#34
Quote by Schneiderman
Studies reveal that US cities which adopted tasers as a widescale replacement for firearms saw a significant drop in fatalities resulting from use of force by police.

Not relevant to the UK.
However, opinions there are influenced by what happens here and what happens here is terribly distorted by the media and by popular opinion. Basically, you are not dealing with facts and reason, you are dealing with the uninformed ramblings of the ignorant masses.

Congratulations, you are no longer debating the point and are now simply accusing me of being a braindead media *****. Just for the record, I couldn't care less what CNN says about tazers, what I care about is the little child whose daddy won't be coming home because instead of a baton a police officer used a tazer on him, and the man's pacemaker failed. Terrible example, I know, but it works. All in all my reasons for disliking tazers are simple, and are not based upon what the media thinks. Now I'm going to have to emphasize this so bear with me.
BRITAIN DOESN'T NEED TAZERS, WE DO FINE WITHOUT THEM AND EVERY TIME THEY ARE EMPLOYED WE ARE TAKING AN UNNECESSARY RISK.
There we go.

Tazers make sense in the US, where guns are readily available and a night stick simply isn't enough, however, due to our strict gun control laws we don't have rampant gun crime, and knife crime can easily be averted without tazers.
#35
I'm not the one harping on about tasers causing deaths.
Infact thats pretty irrelevant, because the amount of people who die from the use of force by the police is low in the UK because firearms are not used. You can't 'accidently' beat someone to death'.

You're missing my point. The UK does not need tasers. You can't really compare the UK's situation to America's. There is nothing to show in the UK that tasers have made a significant reduction in anything. Crime or police brutality.
We don't need them.

^ Well said blynd_snyper
Quote by Renka
OddOneOut is an Essex S&M mistress and not a pirate or a computer program.

Last edited by OddOneOut at Nov 25, 2008,
#36
Britain doesn't "need" anything in that regard, it's not a matter of need it's a matter of safety and advantage. If you want to base your opinions on misinformation and propaganda, go ahead, you can be just like the rest of the brainless masses.
Survivor of the St. John's Lockdown
Quote by SG thrasher

The thread-starter is a legend.
Seriously, who thinks "Shit, i'm gonna die, BRB, Ima' tell UG."?

Quote by The_Paranoia

Congratz man, you are a true, American Hero.
Go Schneiderman!

Gun Facts: Educate Yourself
#37
Quote by Schneiderman
If you want to base your opinions on misinformation and propaganda, go ahead, you can be just like the rest of the brainless masses.

It's a conspiracy man! Wake up sheeple! You're just like the rest of the brainless masses! You're being lied to!

Just for the record, I did manage to predict this turn of events. You are now no longer arguing the point, you're just personally attacking me. Congratulations, you'd be an amazing politician. Unfortunately you'd never make it as you would keep referring to the 'brainless masses' and you'd pretty much alienate everybody who would otherwise support you.
#38
There was nothing to predict, that WAS my point:

Demonstrates that fear mongering by the media is the most dangerous weapon of all.

Tasers are a remarkably good solution to some of the problems of policing but just because a few bad cops ****ed up, now they have a negative connotation and the ignorant public sees them as a form of tyranny.


You have a negative opinion of tasers based on the popular negative opinion of tasers engendered by the fear mongering of the media.

As for your example of the child whose father doesn't come home because he was killed by a taser... well if you're going to go that route, then my concern is for the child whose dather doesn't come home because he was a police officer and he got shot or stabbed while a taser could have saved his life. It works both ways, unfortunately it works in my way more often.
Survivor of the St. John's Lockdown
Quote by SG thrasher

The thread-starter is a legend.
Seriously, who thinks "Shit, i'm gonna die, BRB, Ima' tell UG."?

Quote by The_Paranoia

Congratz man, you are a true, American Hero.
Go Schneiderman!

Gun Facts: Educate Yourself
#39
Quote by Schneiderman
There was nothing to predict, that WAS my point:


You have a negative opinion of tasers based on the popular negative opinion of tasers engendered by the fear mongering of the media.

No, I have a negative opinion of them because they're a waste of money and would serve no legitimate purpose in the British police service considering the crime that occurs in Britain. Fortunately you're basing your hypothesis that I believe everything in the media purely upon rhetoric and are conveniently ignoring the points I have outlined throughout this thread as to why I don't believe they are right for Britain. God forbid if you had to read my posts you'd have to think up a counter argument.

As for your example of the child whose father doesn't come home because he was killed by a taser... well if you're going to go that route, then my concern is for the child whose dather doesn't come home because he was a police officer and he got shot or stabbed while a taser could have saved his life.

Very American example. Can you name one incident in which a police officer in Britain was shot or stabbed? Now, can you name one where a taser would have saved his life? No, it simply doesn't work over here.
It works both ways, unfortunately it works in my way more often.

Once again, not in Britain.
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