#1
i dont know why but i find it hard to make an interesting chord progression in a diatonic key.
i think it adds so much flavor if one chord is slightly "out" of the key.
like for example, one of my favorite (simple) chord progressions ive made so far is B7, E9.
(it might be just the voicings, but idk)

e---7--------7------
B---10------7------
G---8-------7------
D---x-------6------
A---9-------7------
E---x-------x------

is it just me, or does EVERYTHING sound cooler if you add some non-diatonic chords?
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#3
Quote by one vision
Neopolitan chords ftw.

ive heard of those around here alot, and i looked it up and asked my teacher...but i never really understood it.
a neapolitan chord is just a major chord built on the b2 of the key right?
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#4
Modal interchange is very useful - for example borrowing a Fm chord from C minor to put in a C major progression: C - F - Fm - C.

Neopolitan 6th chords work well as predominants.

Regular diatonic chords mixed with chords that facilitate chromatically descending basslines, work well - for example, Am - E/G♯ - G - D/F♯ - F - E7 - Am.
#5
Ye the magic lies in the harmonic relation between the melody and the chords. Over a same chord progression, you can get 10000 different songs.

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#6
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Ye the magic lies in the harmonic relation between the melody and the chords. Over a same chord progression, you can get 10000 different songs.

you have a good point


EDIT:

Regular diatonic chords mixed with chords that facilitate chromatically descending basslines, work well - for example, Am - E/G♯ - G - D/F♯ - F - E7 - Am.

ok so in that progression there is one key, but just with chromaticlly descending basslines?
if so, then what key is it in?
i really like the chromatic basslines under chords, but it confuses me..
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Last edited by musicTHEORYnerd at Nov 25, 2008,
#7
^ It's in Am, but has a D major chord instead of the diatonic Dm so that the bassline can go G - F# - F without clashing with the F in a Dm chord.
#8
Quote by blue_strat
Modal interchange is very useful - for example borrowing a Fm chord from C minor to put in a C major progression: C - F - Fm - C.
Mmmm yeah the IV-iv-I is a tasty version of the IV - I. It sees the third in the IV chord (which is the 6 in key) drop a half step to a b3 (which is a b6 in key) and take another half step down to the fifth of the I chord (5 in key). The fifth in the IV becomes the root of the I.

Very pleasing sound.

Major III and IV chords are pretty good too. Or borrowing a minor chord just at the right time in a major progression can sound very soulful.

I mentioned one in the chat I have to bring up again...In the Beatles song I'm So Tired Is in the key of A. The initial progression is relatively cliche with the exception of the second chord a VII7. Excellent use of "non functioning secondary dominant off the leading tone". Haha

Same song also sees an E+ and Dm thrown in
[A]Maybe I should [E+]get up and [F#m7] fix myself a [Dm] Drink No no nooo...

The F#m7 Dm back to A can be seen as a variation on that same IV iv I we talked about before with the F# F to E voice leading.

The E+ is cool cause of it's jarring C against the G# also present in the E+ and against the C# of the A key. The altered E chord used here followed an F# sets up the idea of a possible shift in tonic away from A. This yet unrealized hope of change is reflected in the lyrics "get up" and is built upon by the F# which is at the same time setting up the resulting denial of change as the F# then shifts to the Dm setting up a nice progression that reinstates the orignal tonic A while the singer emphatically says NO NO NOoo.

Anyway non diatonic chords are awesome for colour and feeling. YEahh!!
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Nov 25, 2008,
#10
Here's a progression I made that shares from other keys, but still resolves rather nicely;


e|------------2-| 
B|--------------|
G|--6--8--11--3-|
D|--4--6--9---4-|
A|--5--7--11----| 
E|--5--7--9---2-|

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#11
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
ive heard of those around here alot, and i looked it up and asked my teacher...but i never really understood it.
a neapolitan chord is just a major chord built on the b2 of the key right?

Yes, but more specifically, they act as a predominant, meaning you can replace a subdominant with a neopolian to good effect. And naturally, they should be followed by a Dominant chord.
#12
I've noticed alot of jazz progressions are a couple of common progressions repeated in different keys.

You could also have a chromatic bassline. I've seen a few jazz songs like that.

You could also sub in some non-diatonic chords. Like say you have a diatonic chord progression, C Am Dm G or whatever, you could sub those chords as Cmaj#11 A7#9 D9 G13addb5. Just remember to keep your voice leading similar and do it more creatively than me.

Throw the last three ideas around together and you get a completely non-diatonic progression in a jazz sort of stlye

Or you could write 4 or 5 non-diatonic melodies/countermelodies and use counterpoint to put them together in a hack job sort of way.
#13
There are none. A ephemeral deviation from the basic progression of your piece is called tonicization but will go back to the prime progression. Learn some Schenkerian analysis.
#14
Quote by Rasputin92
There are none. A ephemeral deviation from the basic progression of your piece is called tonicization but will go back to the prime progression. Learn some Schenkerian analysis.
Continue and please explain the basics of schenkerian analysis, but bear in mind alot of MT'ers are jazz based and are thinking of completely non-diatonic progression with (sometimes) very little tonality.
#15
Quote by demonofthenight
Continue and please explain the basics of schenkerian analysis, but bear in mind alot of MT'ers are jazz based and are thinking of completely non-diatonic progression with (sometimes) very little tonality.


Naw atonality is very uncommon and I doubt anyone if anyone here uses it and the vast majority of jazz is tonal
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#16
Schenkerian analysis very simply says everything can been seen as a a I to V movement with everything else being a decoration and prolongation. Jazz has in fact more prolongation than the actual I to V section, that's the difference with other music.
#17
Quote by Rasputin92
Schenkerian analysis very simply says everything can been seen as a a I to V movement with everything else being a decoration and prolongation. Jazz has in fact more prolongation than the actual I to V section, that's the difference with other music.
I've seen that theory before, never heard it being called a Schenkerian analysis. It can be seen that vii0 chords are the same as rootless V9 chords, that IV- I resolutions are archaic (and shouldnt be used) and that IV - V and ii - V and bii4:6 - V and bVI#6 - V (I think I got that right for an augmented sixth chord?) are all just a fancy way to get from I to V and back again.

EDIT: its still non-diatonic. These chords still use alot of out of key notes.
#18
Quote by demonofthenight
I've seen that theory before, never heard it being called a Schenkerian analysis. It can be seen that vii0 chords are the same as rootless V9 chords, that IV- I resolutions are archaic (and shouldnt be used) and that IV - V and ii - V and bii4:6 - V and bVI#6 - V (I think I got that right for an augmented sixth chord?) are all just a fancy way to get from I to V and back again.

EDIT: its still non-diatonic. These chords still use alot of out of key notes.


it dont say that IV-I is bad and it can be used for all tonal music (just b/c something is non diatonic dont mean its not tonal, natch)
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#19
Quote by Deep-Sea-Seamus
it dont say that IV-I is bad and it can be used for all tonal music (just b/c something is non diatonic dont mean its not tonal, natch)
In that case, schoenberg anyone? Honestly, who here can write WELL using schoenbergs atonality principals (and still use more than 3 voices)
#20
Quote by one vision
Yes, but more specifically, they act as a predominant, meaning you can replace a subdominant with a neopolian to good effect. And naturally, they should be followed by a Dominant chord.

i think i understand but i dont fully understand stuff until i see examples.
are there any popular songs that use neopolitan chords?
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#22
Quote by one vision
Moonlight sonata, first movement.

thanks
when i first started playing piano i attempted at learning that....
but i couldnt get it cause i was just learning how to read music too so it was so confusing.
thanks though =]
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#23
Quote by demonofthenight
I've seen that theory before, never heard it being called a Schenkerian analysis. It can be seen that vii0 chords are the same as rootless V9 chords, that IV- I resolutions are archaic (and shouldnt be used) and that IV - V and ii - V and bii4:6 - V and bVI#6 - V (I think I got that right for an augmented sixth chord?) are all just a fancy way to get from I to V and back again.

EDIT: its still non-diatonic. These chords still use alot of out of key notes.


Well, the analysis comes in where you look at a piece of music and determine the reductions to uncover the basic structure of the music. It's a bit more work than simply stating that everything is I - V - I.

From what I've seen, the method is inherently somewhat conservative, since the method of analysis came about after years of Schenker's analysis of pieces by Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, etc. So, if you look at those pieces, and believe them to be the pinnacle of all music, then you could say that the best works are in fact based around one key, and around the expansion of the I - V - I. In reality, of course, you can begin in one key and end in another, or ignore keys entirely, whatever you like.

That post by Rasputin wasn't particularly helpful, and I suspect it was just an excuse to show that he knew something about Schenkerian analysis Even though tonicizations might be temporary in Schenker's ideal pieces, it's obvious what the intent of the thread is.

It is an interesting method of analysis, though, and I think it has a lot to offer, even to someone not interested in composing older styles of music.
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