#1
In the music theory bookk that I am reading, there is a list of chords that can support secondary dominants. The only two that can't support them are the I and vii. The author explains why the I chord can't support a secondary dominant (pretty obvious reason), but he doesn't explain why the vii can't support them. I have been thinking about this today and can't seem to figure out why. Could someone please explain this to me? Thanks.
#2
I am guessing that by support the secondary dominant you mean that the scale degree in question is the target of the secondary dominant.

I.E. In the key of C then D7 -> G
G would be said to be "supporting" the secondary dominant D7.

If I have this wrong please correct me. I'll carry on...

I think it has to do with the cycle of fifths where we go down a fifth each time diatonically.

So in the Key of C we would have a cycle of fifths that would go...
G -> C -obviously not a "secondary" dominant
A -> D
B -> E
C -> F
D -> G
E -> A
F -> B -wait a minute, hold the phone that's not actually a perfect fifth now is it

It can support a secondary dominant but it's not going to be diatonic. You would have to use it as is and hope the listener is fooled - which can work. Or sharp the F or flatten the B to get a perfect fifth - one of the roots is going to be out of key.

EDIT: Of course you could use a F7 as a non functioning secondary dominant - which just means it doesn't resolve down a fifth but is still borrowed from the key of Bb.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Nov 28, 2008,
#3
Quote by Ergin429
In the music theory bookk that I am reading, there is a list of chords that can support secondary dominants. The only two that can't support them are the I and vii. The author explains why the I chord can't support a secondary dominant (pretty obvious reason), but he doesn't explain why the vii can't support them. I have been thinking about this today and can't seem to figure out why. Could someone please explain this to me? Thanks.
Maybe because vii0 is a diminished chord and you can't base tonality around a diminished chord?

In classical music, you use secondary dominants to modulate and change keys.
But in a jazz music you don't have to change keys when using secondary dominant. I've seen couple of secondary dominant chords supported by diminished chords in a few jazz charts. Than again, jazz progressions are pretty free compared to classical progressions.

So yeah, who wrote that book?
#4
A secondary dominant satisfy these conditions:
-Root is diatonic
-Moves down a perfect 5th into a diatonic chord.

Therefore, a I can be a secondary dominant. I7->IVmaj7

VII-7b5 -> III-7 is fine too.

The person who wrote your book is on crack.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#5
I think as 20Tigers said, because if your going round the circle

the Diatonic fifth up from the vii chord is a Dim Fifth, it does not descending to its V (or down a fifth) as is the function of secondary dominants.

And, also, because if you have a Dominant resolving to a vii, that is not a Dominant it doesnt produce any resolution. Im assuming for instance if you go:

F#7 - B7 - E7 - A7 - D-7 - G7 - Cmaj7

That would work fine

But

F#7 - B-7b5 - Cmaj7. (could) work, or not work

Of course in Jazz, vii is frequently played as Dominant. (Coltrane Changes)
#6
^I didn't think it needed to resolve? Heaps of jazz sounds unresolved and hanging untill the last chord.

The person who wrote your book is on crack.
So? Just because someones on drugs doesn't mean they're wrong and it doesn't mean they're only going to create crap stuff. Heaps of great musicians did crack.
#7
Nah, crack's cheap and dirty, serious musicians preferred real cocaine or amphetamines (speed) for stimulants.

Xiaoxi you misinterpreted it - You can't have a secondary dominant going to the I or vii, not from it, as stated above, because of the the vii's lack of perfect 5th from which to build a dominant chord.


This is almost certainly written expecting diatonic progression - jazz (well, bop) you expect key center shifts every few bars so diatonic analysis of an entire piece doesn't make much sense.
#8
Quote by Galvanise69


Of course in Jazz, vii is frequently played as Dominant. (Coltrane Changes)


damn st8
#9
In classical music, you use secondary dominants to modulate and change keys.
But in a jazz music you don't have to change keys when using secondary dominant.


Not necessarily. Secondary dominant are very effective in strengthening an existing tonality.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#10
Quote by Nick_

Xiaoxi you misinterpreted it - You can't have a secondary dominant going to the I or vii, not from it, as stated above, because of the the vii's lack of perfect 5th from which to build a dominant chord.

Oh he meant like that.

Well then:

There's no V7/I because V7 is the primary dominant.

There's no V7/VII because there isn't a diatonic chord that can move a perfect 5th down to VII. IV would be a diminished 5th.

Demonofthenight, you're just being pedantic. I didn't mean anything by it. It's just an expression.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Nov 28, 2008,
#11
^ How so?

Resolving down by fifths? Increasing gradual resolution to the tonic?

D7 - G7 - Cmaj7?
#12
Quote by Galvanise69
^ How so?

Resolving down by fifths? Increasing gradual resolution to the tonic?

D7 - G7 - Cmaj7?

I don't understand your question...

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#13
Quote by Galvanise69
^ How so?

Resolving down by fifths? Increasing gradual resolution to the tonic?

D7 - G7 - Cmaj7?


Well, then (by what you posted) it would be a II7/V-V7/I-I progression..

I don't really know how secondary dominants work in terms of functionality, but my guess would be that D7 would be a dominant function (wild wild guesses), and the V7 functioning as tonic in this particular case, giving a Unifunctional Deceptive Cadence (????????? I really don't know how else to name it) going from a function of the tonic to the tonic itself. But a V7 IS a dominant, and not a function of the tonic, so a V7-I cadence would be an authentic one, because it's "dominant-tonic", not "tonic's function-tonic".


Same with having the viiº "supporting" a secondary dominant.
The secondary dominant, if you bend over rules just to make it diatonic, would be F7. That would mean that F7, or IV7 is a function of the vii, or a function of the function of the dominant, when in reality IV is the subdominant and it is one of the prime harmonic functions, so it can't be the function of any other harmonic function, meaning IV7 can't be the secondary dominant of vii...


Hmm, I taking out things out of my arse, but really that is a way (with all the little knowledge that I have) that I find could explain it...
If I'm wrong, please correct me.
Let me rephrase that (I'm sure I'm wrong):Correct me...
Last edited by gonzaw at Nov 28, 2008,
#14
Quote by gonzaw
Well, then (by what you posted) it would be a II7/V-V7/I-I progression..

I don't really know how secondary dominants work in terms of functionality, but my guess would be that D7 would be a dominant function (wild wild guesses), and the V7 functioning as tonic in this particular case, giving a Unifunctional Deceptive Cadence (????????? I really don't know how else to name it) going from a function of the tonic to the tonic itself. But a V7 IS a dominant, and not a function of the tonic, so a V7-I cadence would be an authentic one, because it's "dominant-tonic", not "tonic's function-tonic".


V-I can be a cadence but not all V-I progressions are cadences. It also depends where it occurs and whether or not it brings a section of music to a close. II7 - V7 - I. If there is a cadence here it would be an authentic cadence. No need for Unifuntional Deceptive ideas. The II7 - V7 is a root movement down a fifth but it is not a closing movement to end a musical phrase. It is part of the harmonic development moving toward the final V-I cadence.

Overall the cycle of fifths works quite well as it develops a pattern and a feel that we are continuously "homing in" on the tonic. Only if the final movement was somehwere other than a fifth would we call it deceptive and especially so since the repeated down a fifth movement has primed us to expect a final V-I resolution.
Si
#15
Quote by gonzaw
Well, then (by what you posted) it would be a II7/V-V7/I-I progression..
Not really necessary to say V7/I...that's redundant. Actually I think in this case it's a series of extended dominant starting from II. In extended dominants, you just analyze by putting an arrow between each dominant.

So in this case (2) II7 -> V7 -> Imaj7

I don't really know how secondary dominants work in terms of functionality, but my guess would be that D7 would be a dominant function (wild wild guesses), and the V7 functioning as tonic in this particular case, giving a Unifunctional Deceptive Cadence (????????? I really don't know how else to name it) going from a function of the tonic to the tonic itself. But a V7 IS a dominant, and not a function of the tonic, so a V7-I cadence would be an authentic one, because it's "dominant-tonic", not "tonic's function-tonic".
A secondary dominant is just a delineation from diatonicism to pull the listener's ear out of key.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#16
Quote by 20Tigers
V-I can be a cadence but not all V-I progressions are cadences. It also depends where it occurs and whether or not it brings a section of music to a close. II7 - V7 - I. If there is a cadence here it would be an authentic cadence. No need for Unifuntional Deceptive ideas. The II7 - V7 is a root movement down a fifth but it is not a closing movement to end a musical phrase. It is part of the harmonic development moving toward the final V-I cadence.

Overall the cycle of fifths works quite well as it develops a pattern and a feel that we are continuously "homing in" on the tonic. Only if the final movement was somehwere other than a fifth would we call it deceptive and especially so since the repeated down a fifth movement has primed us to expect a final V-I resolution.



The way he posted made me think it was a cadence.
I am trying to make sense of secondary dominants by terms of functionality. Meaning I want to understand how secondary dominants work in tonal music (or any kind of diatonic functionality that is, although I don't know if this case is or isn't bound by diatonic functionality)

Quote by Xiaoxi
Not really necessary to say V7/I...that's redundant. Actually I think in this case it's a series of extended dominant starting from II. In extended dominants, you just analyze by putting an arrow between each dominant.

So in this case (2) II7 -> V7 -> Imaj7


I was just trying to make some sense of secondary dominants in regards to diatonic functionality.
Well, I don't know anything about secondary dominants and how they work, and I don't know if they can be considered to be "bound" (for lack of a better term) by diatonic functionality..

A secondary dominant is just a delineation from diatonicism to pull the listener's ear out of key.


This seems to explain a bit...
Isn't there a special harmonic way in which they function?
Or are they dominants just because?
#17
demonofthenight: Nah, your right, it doesnt need to resolve at all, just the most common function of secondary dominants is resolving down a fifth. (not too say thats what they HAVE to do. just what they tend to do).
#18
Quote by gonzaw
I was just trying to make some sense of secondary dominants in regards to diatonic functionality.
Well, I don't know anything about secondary dominants and how they work, and I don't know if they can be considered to be "bound" (for lack of a better term) by diatonic functionality..

Isn't there a special harmonic way in which they function?
Or are they dominants just because?

Well, let's start by establishing the quality of a dominant: it has a tritone (very unstable) and it wants to resolve to the tonic (stable). In generic cases: V7 -> I. V7 is the primary dominant in a diatonic system. Because of the strong instability and resolution, it is ideal for establishing the tonic and feels complete to our ears, which is why V7 -> I is often the last movement in a progression or a section of it.

However, the other chords in the diatonic system have potential to function the same way. They just need to have a few tones altered to enable the dominant qualities. These chords thus become secondary dominants. They are analyzed as V7/x, where V7 means dominant and x is the target of the dominant.
There are a couple of rules regarding which diatonic chords can be secondary dominants:
1. The root of the secondary dominant must be diatonic.
2. It must resolve down a perfect 5th to a diatonic chord (the target).

If you play around with this, you'll notice all major key diatonic chords satisfy these conditions except for IV, which would be moving a diminished 5th down to VII. Therefore, There is no V7/VII. Every other chord can be turned into a secondary dominant, which has to have a major 3rd and flat 7th to create the tritone quality. For example, the diatonic III-7 can be turned into a secondary dominant with the target of VI-7 by raising the 3rd. Likewise, VII-7b5 becomes V7/III by raising the 3rd and 5th to major 3rd and perfect 5th. As noted above, dominant resolving to a tonic strongly establishes perceived tonality, therefore the feature of secondary dominants is to deceive our ears and luring it into another key, sometimes temporarily and other times a permanent modulation, and we forget what the "real" tonic root was (unless you have a keen inner ear).

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Dec 1, 2008,
#19
A secondary dominant is just a delineation from diatonicism to pull the listener's ear out of key.


Except, that's not generally why they are used. One of the most common uses of the secondary dominant is not to pull the listeners ear out of key but to strengthen the current key by emphasizing the key's characteristic chords.
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Last edited by Archeo Avis at Dec 1, 2008,
#20
Quote by Archeo Avis
Except, that's not generally why they are used. One of the most common uses of the secondary dominant is not to pull the listeners ear out of key but to strengthen the current key by emphasizing the key's characteristic chords.
But it easily drags your perception of the tonic because it has nondiatonic chord tones. Oftentimes progressions with secondary dominants resolves back to the tonic, however there is that brief period of deception.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#21
It is getting more confusing...

Do you use it to pull towards the tonic or away from it?

Is there a special harmonic function for each of them or something?
Like, what is the difference between having a V7/ii and having a V7/iii? How do they differ harmonicly?