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#1
So, Ill start by saying that I dont know much about music theory or any of that stuff, but the other day this thing struck me:

You know how 7th chords at the beginning were dissonant and "edgy", well they sound fine nowadays.

So my question is, will chords that have dissonance now be non-dissonant in the future?

If so then does this mean that all scales will eventually converge into one only scale?

Thoughts?
#3
I don't think the scales will ever merge into one scale or that that's even possible, but I do think that the chords that have dissonance now may at sometime in the future be non-dissonant.
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#4
I wanna say no?
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#5
no.. that sounds stupid.

scales arent going to merge into each other.
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#7
how long has music theory been around?
has it ever changed in the past?
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#8
Quote by Just_Matt
So, Ill start by saying that I dont know much about music theory or any of that stuff, but the other day this thing struck me:

You know how 7th chords at the beginning were dissonant and "edgy", well they sound fine nowadays.

So my question is, will chords that have dissonance now be non-dissonant in the future?

If so then does this mean that all scales will eventually converge into one only scale?

Thoughts?


i think maybe they sounded like this to you as you were developing as a musician. 7th chords have been around a few hundred years.
#10
Quote by protech487
i think maybe they sounded like this to you as you were developing as a musician. 7th chords have been around a few hundred years.

He means in the 20th century.
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#12
TS does make a good point. If any of you has ever listened to thelonious monk, jazz piano player, you will notice that he has a lot of dissonance in his playing. After listening to it for a while you become familiar with these intervals and they dont seem as 'far off' or 'exotic' as they once did.

So as for the future, it all depends on what you consider the future. Everyones ear is unique as well, in the sense that something that might sound off to me might be fit perfect to someone elses idea of where a song should go in terms of intervals.
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#13
Quote by kosmic
He means in the 20th century.


I don't know then. I still think its in his head.
#14
I can see some intervals becoming less dissonant sounding the more your ears get used to them,

but scales merging into one? That's the stupidest thing I've ever head.
#15
Quote by justin_fraser
TS does make a good point. If any of you has ever listened to thelonious monk, jazz piano player, you will notice that he has a lot of dissonance in his playing. After listening to it for a while you become familiar with these intervals and they dont seem as 'far off' or 'exotic' as they once did.

That's acquired taste, and it's not what TS is talking about. It's just like really weird electronic tracks or death metal vocals. Kudos for bringing the Monk into it though.

TS means (I think) over history. I want to say thirds were once even considered to be dissonant, like, centuries ago. I might be lying though, so I won't. What intervals sound "good" and "bad" to most people is a list that changes over time, so I see no reason to think that would stop.

This has nothing to do with all scales converging into one. Scales are just every note of a key in sequential order, right? So unless you're saying that, somehow, the only key will be a chromatic one (which is ludicrous), you're making no sense.

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Last edited by SteveHouse at Dec 2, 2008,
#16
Quote by justin_fraser
TS does make a good point. If any of you has ever listened to thelonious monk, jazz piano player, you will notice that he has a lot of dissonance in his playing. After listening to it for a while you become familiar with these intervals and they dont seem as 'far off' or 'exotic' as they once did.

So as for the future, it all depends on what you consider the future. Everyones ear is unique as well, in the sense that something that might sound off to me might be fit perfect to someone elses idea of where a song should go in terms of intervals.


This is exactly what Im trying to say.

If any of you have listened to Lights in the Sky by NIN he plays a note out of the scale, when you first listen to it it sounds off and weird, but after some time its perfect and it doesnt seem off anymore.
#17
Quote by SteveHouse
That's acquired taste, and it's not what TS is talking about. It's just like really weird electronic tracks or death metal vocals. Kudos for bringing the Monk into it though.

TS means (I think) over history. I want to say thirds were once even considered to be dissonant, like, centuries ago. I might be lying though, so I won't. What intervals sound "good" and "bad" to most people is a list that changes over time, so I see no reason to think that would stop.


Yes, thats what Im saying too, both of you are right.

EDIT:sorry for double post.
#18
Seventh chords were and still are considered dissonant. What have changed are musical conventions regarding the use of dissonance.
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#19
So, Ill start by saying that I dont know much about music theory or any of that stuff, but the other day this thing struck me:

You know how 7th chords at the beginning were dissonant and "edgy", well they sound fine nowadays.

So my question is, will chords that have dissonance now be non-dissonant in the future?

If so then does this mean that all scales will eventually converge into one only scale?

Thoughts?


What do you think the serialist movement was all about? That theoretical 'one-scale' would simply be 12 tone sets. It has been done, and it wasn't well received, and still remains highly controversial. (the 2nd Viennese school is more infamous than famous!)

To further expound, what we call 'scales' today always express SOME sort of tonal sense, if not precisely tonal in the complete formal sense we are all used to. With that aside, a 'single scale' would simply be complete and utter atonality.

And all of you who are calling TS an idiot, shutup.
Last edited by Erc at Dec 2, 2008,
#20
Quote by Just_Matt
So, Ill start by saying that I dont know much about music theory or any of that stuff, but the other day this thing struck me:

You know how 7th chords at the beginning were dissonant and "edgy", well they sound fine nowadays.

So my question is, will chords that have dissonance now be non-dissonant in the future?

If so then does this mean that all scales will eventually converge into one only scale?

Thoughts?

Very possible. I wondered about this too, not really in a scale merging sense though. I just wonder if in the future any note and any sound will be considered pleasing to the ear. Listening to some bands and knowing that people actually like them leads me to think that this isn't completely out of the realm of possibility. I write a lot of music that is 'out of scale". How it sounds depends on how you place the out of key/scale notes (as well as how open minded the listener is ) To the people that insulted you: poo on them. I knew what you meant, but it is possible that you could have phrased it better.
Dissonance +1
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#21
Also (sorry for the double if that's what this post becomes) but if this did happen I feel it would realistically be more of a school of music (ideally) rather than a universal standard. The interesting part is thinking of all the posibilities this idea contains if harnessed and executed properly. I for one am doing my part.
(also, if you listen to the song on my profile you will get absolutely no idea as to what I am talking about, being as I only have one rough guitar track up that isn't set up like this... just wanted to save anyone the trouble of flaming me uneccessarily )
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#22
Quote by Archeo Avis
Seventh chords were and still are considered dissonant. What have changed are musical conventions regarding the use of dissonance.


Archeo is right. A chords dissonance can't change over time, it isn't a cultural thing. For example, babies will react more pleasantly to harmonious chords than dissonant ones.
#23
Quote by FretFeed
Archeo is right. A chords dissonance can't change over time, it isn't a cultural thing. For example, babies will react more pleasantly to harmonious chords than dissonant ones.

I think we all get what the threadstarter meant, he just should have worded it a little better. What do you think about what SHOULD be being discussed?
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#24
Quote by FretFeed
Archeo is right. A chords dissonance can't change over time, it isn't a cultural thing. For example, babies will react more pleasantly to harmonious chords than dissonant ones.


If you play dissonant chords to a baby who never heard harmonious chords, will the dissonant chords be harmonious to him/her then?
#25
Quote by Just_Matt
If you play dissonant chords to a baby who never heard harmonious chords, will the dissonant chords be harmonious to him/her then?

Probably not. Babies react more positively to round, fluffy things that to sharp, pointy things too. Naturally and aculturally. I think that's the same kind of experiment that the other guy was referencing.... although references would be nice too.

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#26
Quote by Just_Matt
If you play dissonant chords to a baby who never heard harmonious chords, will the dissonant chords be harmonious to him/her then?

Well, I believe, the way things are sound are based solely on mathematical formulas so I suppose that the babies would still "know" what was harmonious and what wasn't. But what if these formulas change over time (assuming the formulas validity is crucial to the timeframe in which it is applied)? If that's the case then possibly.
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#27
Quote by Just_Matt
If you play dissonant chords to a baby who never heard harmonious chords, will the dissonant chords be harmonious to him/her then?


What he means is that studies have indicated that infants (who presumably have not had time to adsorb the musical conventions of their culture) display a preference for consonant rather than dissonant chords. I'm not sure what the general consensus on this issue is within the scientific community, as the child has presumably been exposed to music while inside the womb, and that would almost certainly be a major confound. That said, many other aspects of Human preference (such as physical attractiveness) are non-arbitrary and are nearly universal across cultures, so the results, is true, wouldn't surprise me.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#28
Quote by Archeo Avis
... That said, many other aspects of Human preference (such as physical attractiveness) are non-arbitrary and are nearly universal across cultures, so the results, is true, wouldn't surprise me.

Such as? Many tribes who have had no contact with the outside world's cultures have different ideas of what beauty is. I've heard of one in which the woman hold beauty pageants and the men dance around in make-up for them, for random example. I'd provide a source but I sold back that textbook.

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#29
Quote by SteveHouse
Such as? Many tribes who have had no contact with the outside world's cultures have different ideas of what beauty is. I've heard of one in which the woman hold beauty pageants and the men dance around in make-up for them, for random example. I'd provide a source but I sold back that textbook.


Many studies have shown that infants, who have not had the opportunity to absorb their culture's customs, show preference for specific and predictable features (such as facial symmetry).
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#30
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#31
Quote by Archeo Avis
Many studies have shown that infants, who have not had the opportunity to absorb their culture's customs, show preference for specific and predictable features (such as facial symmetry).

Ah, okay. I remember hearing that in psych, actually. That's why the ladies cream over Denzel Washington. His face is nearly perfectly symmetrical.

Developmental psychology's fascinating.

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#32
Quote by Archeo Avis
...That said, many other aspects of Human preference (such as physical attractiveness) are non-arbitrary and are nearly universal across cultures, so the results, is true, wouldn't surprise me.

What about tribes that love the elongated necks made with the help of those rings? Also, a long time ago, in places where food was scare large women with big hips were found attractive because it showed that they were healthy and could bear children. And in places where food wasn't as limited the skinnier female form was found to be more attractive. Source: Art History: Volume 1 by Marilyn Stokstad
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#33
Quote by Archeo Avis
Many studies have shown that infants, who have not had the opportunity to absorb their culture's customs, show preference for specific and predictable features (such as facial symmetry).

Symmetry has alot to do with attraction, but so do hormones and pheremones and about a billion other things. Has anyone else noticed we are straying a bit off topic?
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#34
Quote by highlordmugfug
What about tribes that love the elongated necks made with the help of those rings? Also, a long time ago, in places where food was scare large women with big hips were found attractive because it showed that they were healthy and could bear children. And in places where food wasn't as limited the skinnier female form was found to be more attractive. Source: Art History: Volume 1 by Marilyn Stokstad

thats why you see a lot of older paintings with large women, come to think of it just about all of them are >.> except Mona Lisa really
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#35
SHEdit: ^Fair-skinned, voluptuous women used to be the beauty standard in Europe. /SHEdit

Quote by highlordmugfug
Symmetry has alot to do with attraction, but so do hormones and pheremones and about a billion other things. Has anyone else noticed we are straying a bit off topic?

Pheromones have almost nothing to do with human attraction, actually, unless I've been horribly deceived.

Any topic called "This got me thinking..." that gets you thinking too and drifts off-topic without thread-jacking suckitude must have been a good one.

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#36
Quote by highlordmugfug
What about tribes that love the elongated necks made with the help of those rings? Also, a long time ago, in places where food was scare large women with big hips were found attractive because it showed that they were healthy and could bear children. And in places where food wasn't as limited the skinnier female form was found to be more attractive. Source: Art History: Volume 1 by Marilyn Stokstad


That is both true and irrelevant (and actually supports my argument, at least, with regard to your weight example. My argument is that Human physical attraction is not arbitrary, which is entirely consistent with the finding that physical features that suggest health, features which may differ depending on the environment, are likely to have some bearing on an individual's physical attractiveness)

Pheromones have almost nothing to do with human attraction, actually, unless I've been horribly deceived.


Some studies have suggested a possible role of pheromones in Human attraction (see: Human histocompatibility complex), but a large number of studies have likewise found no role whatsoever. The word is still out on this. Saying that pheromones play a large role in Human attraction is premature and borderline intellectually dishonest.
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Last edited by Archeo Avis at Dec 2, 2008,
#37
Quote by Desantis
thats why you see a lot of older paintings with large women, come to think of it just about all of them are >.> except Mona Lisa really

Check out the statues
Woman from willendorf
and
Woman from Ostrava Petrkovice
Same time frame (roughly) different areas.
Different geographical regions will lead to differences in culture,
I'm leading us further astray though.
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#38
human attraction is just basic survival of the fittest, just looking for the best mate with the best genes to mate and crate offspring that are desirable and succesful so that they may do the same
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#39
Quote by highlordmugfug
Check out the statues
Woman from willendorf
and
Woman from Ostrava Petrkovice
Same time frame (roughly) different areas.
Different geographical regions will lead to differences in culture,
I'm leading us further astray though.

same thing with rome, people portrayed as god like but only because they were in prosperity, i guess you can tell what kind of predicament people were in by the artwork...what about picasso then?
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#40
Use the edit button.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
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