#1
what exactly is Counter Point?

from what i "Think" it is

two different melody play together or as one but both are diatonic

lol sorry im not that advance with music theory

but can some one explain to me what it is?

ive looked up information about it and i cant find a solid answer
#5
Quote by Archeo Avis
Less than two seconds of searching reveals...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterpoint



thanks i will read all this(not being sarcastic)


but like i asked "Solid Answer"

i could just keep my studys and get to counter point soon

but its killing me and i want to know what it is

maybe i should of asked for some one to show me an example

but thanks alot never really thought Wikipedia would have this much information on it..or at lest now they do
#6
Quote by TheGallowsPole
Maybe the TS was looking for a place where he could ask questions if he had them; a more personal approach to what he wants to tackle.

He COULD yell at wikipedia supposedly.



lol thanks thats pretty much what i was going for or well hope for

i would rather get information from some one who knows what it is

some one who could give me examples

and if i have a question to any thing they can actually talk back as a one on one level
#7
^If you ask a question, I will answer. Keeping in mind counterpoint is university grade music. It's not really the stuff most guys teach themselves.
Quote by Phrygian_12
what exactly is Counter Point?
The art of combining two or more melodic lines (tastefully) with complete individuality.

That's the definition used in most counterpoint books.
Damn that's contorted and archaic.
Last edited by demonofthenight at Dec 2, 2008,
#8
Get a hold of Walter Piston's Counterpoint and/or Kent Kennans Conterpoint. 2 excellent books on the subject if you are interested in learning a good deal about counterpoint.
Andy
#9
Quote by Andy_Mclaughlan
Get a hold of Walter Piston's Counterpoint and/or Kent Kennans Conterpoint. 2 excellent books on the subject if you are interested in learning a good deal about counterpoint.
Andy
Read this. Damn great book.
#10
Learn some classical guitar arrangements of baroque music. You'll hear it at work in pretty much every piece.
#11
Yeah rockinrider that is a good idea because as good as reading up on counterpoint is....lots of pieces don't follow the guidelines described in most books so its good to get an understanding from books and then analyse music and see how its working and what changes are being mad. You begin to notice certain traits certain composers frequently used in their counterpoint use.
Andy
#12
Quote by rockinrider55
Learn some classical guitar arrangements of baroque music. You'll hear it at work in pretty much every piece.


learning some "overture" could help....but if i dont know what counter point is exactly it might be a bad idea to learn from classical pieces...Inversions and modulations and wacky time signature madness lol starting with transcribing Alkan's piece and then explain what he did in it lol omg its going to be a month of pure hell! just kidding(about transcribing..i want to enjoy my education not go insane with it lol)

if im going to compose something i want to know the proper way

for example if some one was to just start the study of Diatonic theory your not going to tell them "Oh go listen to so and so for Diatonic progressions" to a complete beginner

its just going to take them longer to understand it with out any explanation to go along with it...not only that since once a composer understands the fundamentals of witting they typically don't follow the rules just as Andy_Mclaughlan said

how are they going to understand to play a progression written in a major key with a Raised 4th? The "ii" isnt going to be a minor..its going now be "II" major and the IV chord is going to be "iv*" diminished its all changed be cause of that raised 4th thus making this diatonic progression Lydian.

so for a beginner to "fully understand" what diatonic is should be shown the proper way...dont want to show up for a job and another musician tells you some thing you dont fully understand (first of all how the hell would you get a job that requires that theory lol)


thanks for the suggestion though i really appreciate it.I'll plan on doing that once i start learning it i could then transcribe pieces done by "Handel" or the famous Mozart and Chopin


(sorry but please forgive by typoness and baddddd grammar)
#13
Quote by Andy_Mclaughlan
Get a hold of Walter Piston's Counterpoint and/or Kent Kennans Conterpoint. 2 excellent books on the subject if you are interested in learning a good deal about counterpoint.
Andy



thanks i will order these
#14
Counterpoint sucks. 2 voices. Completely Diatonic. Remember, you cant have any harmonies other than 3rds, 5ths, 6ths, and if you're feeling really modern, 4ths. No leaps larger than a 4th... no parallel 8va or 5ths...

Let me look around for the PDF of all the counterpoint rules and guidelines. If i can find it ill post.
The hip cat says; "Mhm, okay, I can groove wit' this"
#15
Quote by fusionsan
Archaic 16th century Counterpoint sucks. 2 voices. Completely Diatonic. Remember, you cant have any harmonies other than 3rds, 5ths, 6ths, and if you're feeling really modern, 4ths. No leaps larger than a 4th... no parallel 8va or 5ths...

Let me look around for the PDF of all the counterpoint rules and guidelines. If i can find it ill post.
Fix'd

In free 18th century counterpoint there is an opportunity to use every harmonic interval except minor seconds (some teachers allow it, but imo there's nothing which sounds worse). If the lines are moving degreewise (preferably in contrary movement), any harmonic interval can occur on any beat but on the first and third beat of 4/4 and the first and fourth beat of 6/4.

When dealing with non-vocal lines, you can use as large leaps as you want, as long as it sounds good and doesn't sound contorted and bumpy.

The parallel 8va and 5ths rule still mostly applies. But that's fine.

So yeah, learn your rules before you say something like "counterpoint sucks."
Last edited by demonofthenight at Dec 8, 2008,
#16
Quote by demonofthenight
Fix'd

In free 18th century counterpoint there is an opportunity to use every harmonic interval except minor seconds (some teachers allow it, but imo there's nothing which sounds worse). If the lines are moving degreewise (preferably in contrary movement), any harmonic interval can occur on any beat but on the first and third beat of 4/4 and the first and fourth beat of 6/4.

When dealing with non-vocal lines, you can use as large leaps as you want, as long as it sounds good and doesn't sound contorted and bumpy.

The parallel 8va and 5ths rule still mostly applies. But that's fine.

So yeah, learn your rules before you say something like "counterpoint sucks."


Dude... Counterpoint does suck. A lot. Every time I have to do counterpoint in some fashion for homework I cry a little. Its boring.
The hip cat says; "Mhm, okay, I can groove wit' this"
Last edited by fusionsan at Dec 8, 2008,
#17
Quote by fusionsan
Dude... Counterpoint does suck. A lot. Every time I have to do counterpoint in some fashion for homework I cry a little. Its boring.
haha, I've found that if you're forced to do anything it's boring. Even eating chocolate forced would suck.

I've taught myself the beginnings of counterpoint (long, arduous and at times confusing), to me it's anything but boring. To me it's like the next stage in writing music.

Remember when you first started writing music that you used to randomly search for notes that sounded right? IMO it felt like I was blind. Than you found scales and you found you could write some awesome riffs instantly. Well now I've found counterpoint, it feels like yet another step up.

I'm sure there's kids in high-school music classes saying "ooh scales are liek so boring," than there's kids teaching themselves that are like "omg, scales actually work, I want more" (ha, probably where the whole exotic scale obsession comes from). Exactly the same situation here.
#18
IMO Parallel 5ths sound cool if you're trying to write a section with a lot of power, one of my bands songs has a bridge inbetween the solo and outro chorus that goes from F (last solo note), to C which is the start of the chorus and we do a quite epic paralle fifths between the two guitars + bass, very strong sounding.

Though I've never thought of using parallel 8vas.
#19
Quote by demonofthenight
haha, I've found that if you're forced to do anything it's boring. Even eating chocolate forced would suck.

I've taught myself the beginnings of counterpoint (long, arduous and at times confusing), to me it's anything but boring. To me it's like the next stage in writing music.

Remember when you first started writing music that you used to randomly search for notes that sounded right? IMO it felt like I was blind. Than you found scales and you found you could write some awesome riffs instantly. Well now I've found counterpoint, it feels like yet another step up.

I'm sure there's kids in high-school music classes saying "ooh scales are liek so boring," than there's kids teaching themselves that are like "omg, scales actually work, I want more" (ha, probably where the whole exotic scale obsession comes from). Exactly the same situation here.



lol nice! well said!

thats exactly how i feel with this

when i first started to learn theory i felt that i was color blind
but after understanding about triads and then diatonic,ect

i could actually see colors and if i wanted to i would know that Blue and Yellow would Make Green and i could do what ever i wanted with it

I feel like that all over again with Counter Point
i see it...but just having trouble understanding it

i orderd those two books and earlier today i went out to a local book store and found this used book by "Alan Belkin" about Counter Point =D

i didnt have time to read it after i got it (damn it!)
but now that im home i busting out my music sheets getting my guitar and going to spend as much time reading up on this

here are the contents of the book


Introduction
The pedagogy of counterpoint
Stylistic Assumptions
1. Line
Voice leading
Contour
Compound line
Accent
Melodic Structure and Ornamentation
Motives and coherence
Neutral lines
2. Harmony
Richness
Harmonic Definition
Modulation<----------------------------------GAH! Pitch Axis Theory maybe?
3. Relationships between lines
Classifications of contrapuntal texture
Invertible counterpoint: a special case
Counterpoint and orchestration
4. Instrumental Counterpoint
Range
Crossing
Specific Instrumental idioms and motives
5. Contrapuntal forms
Fugue<--------------------------------------------So You Want To Write A Fugue? lol
Canon
Passacaglia and chaconne
6. Real world applications of counterpoint
Counterpoint in non-polyphonic forms
7. Counterpoint and emotional richness
8. Acknowledgements


well anyway yeah thanks alot for those who took their time to say any suggestions
i appreciate it

i might still have questions cause this is a book after all it wont be able to talk back to me or point out a mistake i made


-Cheers
#20
Quote by MadAudioMan
IMO Parallel 5ths sound cool if you're trying to write a section with a lot of power, one of my bands songs has a bridge inbetween the solo and outro chorus that goes from F (last solo note), to C which is the start of the chorus and we do a quite epic paralle fifths between the two guitars + bass, very strong sounding.

Though I've never thought of using parallel 8vas.
Parallel fifths and octaves are very cool, but it deindividualises each melody. So if you want two melodies to keep sounding like 2 individual melodies, avoid parallel 8vas and fifths at all cost's

That being said, it's common for arrangers to make two instruments play the same melody and have them playing at a perfect fifth apart. It sounds larger and stronger, but it's still only one effective melody.

Remember, true counterpoint requires individualisation between the parts.

Quote by Phrygian_12
stuff
You have a book? I've been scavanging whatever I can. Internet, library, school music teachers.
#21
Phrygian_12 - you a Glenn Gould fan? So you want to write a fugue ...
Also "Pitch Axis Theory" isn't really anything I've ever seen in an actual textbook or theory course, in fact I've only ever heard it mentioned by Satriani or those studying his playing. From my understanding, it's just modulating to keys with a common tone that's used as a pedal

But the book looks solid.


there is no such thing as "true" counterpoint. Academically, you are taught to maximize the individuality, since it is easy to lessen it to taste. Outside of that, recognizing that "point" is an archaic way of saying "note", all counterpoint means is note against note; semantics, but it's not some exclusive medal awarded to sufficiently sophisticated sounds.
#22
Quote by Nick_
Phrygian_12 - you a Glenn Gould fan? So you want to write a fugue ...
Also "Pitch Axis Theory" isn't really anything I've ever seen in an actual textbook or theory course, in fact I've only ever heard it mentioned by Satriani or those studying his playing. From my understanding, it's just modulating to keys with a common tone that's used as a pedal

But the book looks solid.


there is no such thing as "true" counterpoint. Academically, you are taught to maximize the individuality, since it is easy to lessen it to taste. Outside of that, recognizing that "point" is an archaic way of saying "note", all counterpoint means is note against note; semantics, but it's not some exclusive medal awarded to sufficiently sophisticated sounds.



hehe sorta of a fan


ah the Pitch Axes Theory is just pretty much that what you said
my teacher really only explained it to me once

but i was wondering if that would be used in the Book

haven't gotten to that part yet
#23
But why are the rules in counterpoint the rules that they are?

Are they just based on someone who wanted to make it like a sudoku puzzle, just to challenge himself?

Or are they based on the taste of the person that invented it?

Or are they based on something else?

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
#24
Quote by xxdarrenxx
But why are the rules in counterpoint the rules that they are?

Are they just based on someone who wanted to make it like a sudoku puzzle, just to challenge himself?

Or are they based on the taste of the person that invented it?

Or are they based on something else?



your right but think of it like this


if your going to build a house and your no architect at it

i mean you know what a house looks like so build it from how you think it should be

after 2 long Years of Building and tearing down parts that didnt work

your team finally finishes....though a Professional Team that was down the street has started building these Huge Apartment complexes with in a year

what im getting at is

they've been taught by some one whos had experience and the theory
they can literary build any thing they desire they know how it works


so looking at Counter Point in this perspective the same with any other Music Theory Subject you can learn alot more and faster then you would having 5 years of trying to figure out why this works and why dosnt that work. when some one break down these subjects,explain to you why and then put it to practice

before you know it you then have the knowledge they have as if you spent the last 10 years trying to find out the mystery of it


i would rather see some one any one with Years of Experience with any thing
and learn from their mistakes

as the same with my own
#25
Your mixing 2 things up.

The house is for practical use, and the best designs are based on efficieny/space/cost to labor ratio.

That's why I asked why those rules are the set rules.

How did the person who made those rules base his ideas that they are the "right" rules.

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??