#1
I was hoping someone could tell me where i could learn/ or tell me how to play medievel music from like the 1600's. Ans if anyone could tell me of any artists that play this sort of music 2day??

Cheers!
#4
you are aware we're living in the 21st century yes?
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#5
Renaissance or Medieval cuz i do believe Medieval was before 1600..

i'm not sure tho

Edit: Anyway to be helpful..

i'm pretty sure that most medieval music i've heard was in major keys
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Last edited by victoryaloy at Dec 3, 2008,
#7
Try Gentle Giant, especially the albums "Free Hand" and "Octopuss". The song Talybont from Free Hand has a very medieval feeling.

For the record, they're a progrock band, but takes influences fom pretty much everywhere.
#8
first, obtain a lute...
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#9
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first, obtain a lute...


+1 learn the major scale and get a lute and your pretty much good to go
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#11
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I was hoping someone could tell me where i could learn/ or tell me how to play medievel music from like the 1600's. Ans if anyone could tell me of any artists that play this sort of music 2day??

Cheers!

The seventeenth century was part of the Baroque period. If you're referring to actual medieval music (up until about 1400 or so), firstly ignore everybody who suggested anything about the major scale. The major scale did not exist back then, so medieval music was in one of the four church modes, which are as follows:

Dorian (D E F G A B C)
Phrygian (E F G A B C D)
Lydian (F G A B C D E)
Mixolydian (G A B C D E F)

I can help you a little more if you tell me what kind of music you wish to play/sing. Instrumental music, for example, or some of the plainchant from the medieval era?
#12
Quote by :-D
The seventeenth century was part of the Baroque period. If you're referring to actual medieval music (up until about 1400 or so), firstly ignore everybody who suggested anything about the major scale. The major scale did not exist back then, so medieval music was in one of the four church modes, which are as follows:

Dorian (D E F G A B C)
Phrygian (E F G A B C D)
Lydian (F G A B C D E)
Mixolydian (G A B C D E F)

I can help you a little more if you tell me what kind of music you wish to play/sing. Instrumental music, for example, or some of the plainchant from the medieval era?


I dont want to make an argument or go off topic but briefly could you explain how the Ionian scale wasn't around? I know i said major scale above but in reality if a song is written out of Ionian(or with Ionian as the tonal center) MT has to call it Major.
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#13
Quote by victoryaloy
I dont want to make an argument or go off topic but briefly could you explain how the Ionian scale wasn't around? I know i said major scale above but in reality if a song is written out of Ionian(or with Ionian as the tonal center) MT has to call it Major.

I don't even know how the Ionian scale wasn't used; it doesn't seem logical to me, but everything I've ever read about medieval music made no mention of it. All I know is that everything was based using C as the root, which is why there were modes instead of scales. My best guess would be that because C was the root of all music (essentially) and not considered to be used as the root of a scale, nobody would go against agreed-upon convention and create music that was not based around an offspring of C Ionian.

It's not much of an answer, and I apologize; I'll see if I can do some research on this, because I'd like to know as well.

On another note, TS: The reason I said "four modes" were that the four I mentioned are considered the authentic medieval modes. At some point, Hypodorian, Hypophrygian, Hypolydian and Hypomixolydian were derived as well, but these were just the plagal modes. To get to the true essence of medieval music I'd stick to the authentic modes.
Last edited by :-D at Dec 3, 2008,
#14
Quote by victoryaloy
I dont want to make an argument or go off topic but briefly could you explain how the Ionian scale wasn't around? I know i said major scale above but in reality if a song is written out of Ionian(or with Ionian as the tonal center) MT has to call it Major.


Music wasnt defined by scales back then; twas modal.

Major/minor tonality is relatively recent.
#15
Quote by :-D
I don't even know how the Ionian scale wasn't used; it doesn't seem logical to me, but everything I've ever read about medieval music made no mention of it. All I know is that everything was based using C as the root, which is why there were modes instead of scales. My best guess would be that because C was the root of all music (essentially) and not considered to be used as the root of a scale, nobody would go against agreed-upon convention and create music that was not based around an offspring of C Ionian.
It's not much of an answer, and I apologize; I'll see if I can do some research on this, because I'd like to know as well.

So your saying they played C Dorian, C Lydian ect. ?

Because I remember being told somewhere that they only had the white notes of a keyboard so when they used different notes as the root they got different modes.
#16
Quote by 12345abcd3
So your saying they played C Dorian, C Lydian ect. ?

Because I remember being told somewhere that they only had the white notes of a keyboard so when they used different notes as the root they got different modes.

No, that wasn't what I was saying. You learned it correctly. When I said "C being the root of everything", I meant that all the modes were based on what we now know as C major. That scale served as the parent for the medieval modes.
#17
Quote by :-D
No, that wasn't what I was saying. You learned it correctly. When I said "C being the root of everything", I meant that all the modes were based on what we now know as C major. That scale served as the parent for the medieval modes.

I see, I thought you meant that C was the root of all scales meaning it would be the root of all the modes as well.

#18
Quote by 12345abcd3
I see, I thought you meant that C was the root of all scales meaning it would be the root of all the modes as well.


Nope, just the white notes of the piano; sorry for any confusion.
#19
Quote by :-D
I don't even know how the Ionian scale wasn't used; it doesn't seem logical to me, but everything I've ever read about medieval music made no mention of it. All I know is that everything was based using C as the root, which is why there were modes instead of scales. My best guess would be that because C was the root of all music (essentially) and not considered to be used as the root of a scale, nobody would go against agreed-upon convention and create music that was not based around an offspring of C Ionian.

It's not much of an answer, and I apologize; I'll see if I can do some research on this, because I'd like to know as well.


That was a really helpful answer, and an interesting concept to think about.
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#20
Quote by victoryaloy
That was a really helpful answer, and an interesting concept to think about.

Just to expand on that a little bit, when I say "go against convention", it's important to keep in mind the differences between the aim of most music today and the aim of medieval music. Because medieval music was designed to connect with God, it would seem to me that nobody would want to screw around with the existing ideas of what music should be. In order to make any major changes to the medieval musical system, I'm sure one would have had to go through a very painstaking process and therefore it was just easier to stick with the existing system.
#21
Rainbow made an attempt to play Medieval music, at least until Ronnie James Dio left. Nowadays Ritchie Blackmore is playing Renaissance music in Blackmore's Night. If you're interested in playing that sort of thing you should likely look him up.
#22
Quote by :-D
Just to expand on that a little bit, when I say "go against convention", it's important to keep in mind the differences between the aim of most music today and the aim of medieval music. Because medieval music was designed to connect with God, it would seem to me that nobody would want to screw around with the existing ideas of what music should be. In order to make any major changes to the medieval musical system, I'm sure one would have had to go through a very painstaking process and therefore it was just easier to stick with the existing system.


What about minstrels, jogleurs, troubadours, etc?

For instance, have these ones (hmm, the only thing I could find):

http://www.goodnoise.com/album/Musica-Antiqua-Medieval-and-Renaissance-Minstrels-Songs-Dance-MP3-Download/10915713.html

Some of them are (I think) from minstrels/troubadours, and you can distiguish them from, lets say, gregorian chants or any kind of ecclesiastic music at the time..


Hmm, I think they did use modes like lydian, I guess ionian too, but I don't know much about troubadours and it's kind of hard to find info about them...


EDIT:Talking about medieval music it reminded me of this video..
It's f***ing amazing, also troubadour influenced (I think), and if you understand spanish it would be better (but if not listen to the music and vocal melodies anyways)..

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GfHrrQyaKpM&feature=related


(song starts at 4:00)
Last edited by gonzaw at Dec 3, 2008,
#23
Quote by gonzaw
What about minstrels, jogleurs, troubadours, etc?

Sacred music was still the most common use for music during the medieval era. Troubadour, trouvere, Minnesinger, jongleur, etc. songs were for entertainment purposes obviously. These were passed down generally through oral tradition because of the illiteracy of the common folk, and therefore was not as integral a part of the medieval musical environment as sacred music.
#24
sorry to be a noob in the middle of an informative topic but...

Troubadour, trouvere, Minnesinger and jongleur were used as entertainment..
I went to a medieval festival over the summer and they we're jamming away on acoustic guitars..

i know this is an extremely bland question but what is the typical Medieval jam "style"?
*Also i think this might lead back to the TS's question.

I know :-D listed the modes earlier, but now that different things (minstrels, jongleurs, troubadours *i dont know what you'd call them*) got brought up i was just wondering if there is a traditional(word choice??) one that is used today to portray Medieval-ness.

Question Revised: Or if I wanted to learn there style and what they do where would i start? or how could i find out what there doing?
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#25
Quote by :-D
Sacred music was still the most common use for music during the medieval era. Troubadour, trouvere, Minnesinger, jongleur, etc. songs were for entertainment purposes obviously. These were passed down generally through oral tradition because of the illiteracy of the common folk, and therefore was not as integral a part of the medieval musical environment as sacred music.


I guess they are what people refer to "medieval" music nowadays though (most people don't refer to gregorian chants as "the" "medieval" music, but more of flutes, lutes, hapy style of songs).

And wasn't because of troubadours that Renassaince began? Or something like that?
#26
Quote by gonzaw
And wasn't because of troubadours that Renassaince began? Or something like that?

There were various reasons that music moved into the Renaissance age; the main one, I would say, was the shift from monophony to polyphony, most notably through the development of organum. Keep in mind that it wasn't just music that influenced the Renaissance; all arts began to shift towards the ancient Greek ideals and the idea of humanism.

victoryaloy: I'm not exactly sure what it is you'd like to know, could you please clarify?
#27
Use mostly fifths and octaves, most intervals back then were considered to be too dissonant and unholy (music was the solely for religious purposes). The sound of that period was very open and tonally ambiguous so avoid things like major/minor thirds. Listen to some Gregorian chants and you will get a good idea of the sound
#28
Quote by :-D
There were various reasons that music moved into the Renaissance age; the main one, I would say, was the shift from monophony to polyphony, most notably through the development of organum. Keep in mind that it wasn't just music that influenced the Renaissance; all arts began to shift towards the ancient Greek ideals and the idea of humanism.

victoryaloy: I'm not exactly sure what it is you'd like to know, could you please clarify?


Wasn't polyphony introduced by troubadors?
I don't remember ecclesiastic music introducing polyphony (apart from those bells they throw around every know and then)...
#29
Quote by :-D

victoryaloy: I'm not exactly sure what it is you'd like to know, could you please clarify?


sorry.. i don't exactally know how to word it.

i you would recomend a good medieval song(one that you'd hear a a medieval fair) what would it be?
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#31
Any decent classical guitar course should introduce you to these styles.
The most popular, or commonly heard, selections now played on modern guitar from the period you indicate ( greensleeves) are those of English lutenists such as John Dowland and Francis Cutting and the Spanish vihuelists such as Luys de Milan and Alonso Mudarra. Of course there are many others from the era as well.
The music is polyphonic so you will need to develop classical fingerstyle techniques.
Cutting mentioned above wrote a particularly inventive elaboration of Greensleeves.
There are thousands of recordings of these styles available by many fine guitarists.
#32
i love happy medieval music
i used to look for where to find this sh*t. to find it in modern music, a lot of celtic music is similar. transcribe videogame songs (World of Warcraft, Fable, especially Zelda)- these are probably close to what you are looking for. i also heard a lot of videogame music is based off of lydian. im not sure if that will help you, but i try
#33
Quote by victoryaloy
I dont want to make an argument or go off topic but briefly could you explain how the Ionian scale wasn't around? I know i said major scale above but in reality if a song is written out of Ionian(or with Ionian as the tonal center) MT has to call it Major.


You have to understand that at that point in time, theory was still in the proverbial diapers. Keys and scales and such weren't used like they are now.
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#34
Quote by R.Christie
Any decent classical guitar course should introduce you to these styles.
The most popular, or commonly heard, selections now played on modern guitar from the period you indicate ( greensleeves) are those of English lutenists such as John Dowland and Francis Cutting and the Spanish vihuelists such as Luys de Milan and Alonso Mudarra. Of course there are many others from the era as well.
The music is polyphonic so you will need to develop classical fingerstyle techniques.
Cutting mentioned above wrote a particularly inventive elaboration of Greensleeves.
There are thousands of recordings of these styles available by many fine guitarists.


Greensleeves is Medieval?? I would have never guessed!

Next sememster i start my degree in classical guitar.
So hopefully i'll pick up some things..

anyway when i went to a medieval fair the songs they were playing sounded nothing like the examples you listed above..
it was much more up beat and everyone was jumping around.

**for the record i was there because my friend and her mom work there on the weekend and her mom gets me in free. It was probably one of the weirdest things i've ever seen**

i'll search youtube and see if i can find an example.
Edit: I think i'm thinking of more of a medieval folk type thing. idk
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#35
Quote by victoryaloy
Greensleeves is Medieval?? I would have never guessed!

Next sememster i start my degree in classical guitar.
So hopefully i'll pick up some things..

anyway when i went to a medieval fair the songs they were playing sounded nothing like the examples you listed above..
it was much more up beat and everyone was jumping around.

**for the record i was there because my friend and her mom work there on the weekend and her mom gets me in free. It was probably one of the weirdest things i've ever seen**

i'll search youtube and see if i can find an example.
Edit: I think i'm thinking of more of a medieval folk type thing. idk

No Greensleeves is not medieval, it's first known version appears in the era of (English) renaissance music. It appears in several different settings in early written versions. I have a facsimile of the earliest manuscript (tabulature plus transcribed score) of the commonly heard version. It's in an compliation of Elizabethan lute music published by Brian Jeffery (google him, it may still be available). But he gave Greensleeves as an example of the style he sought, so I assumed he realised his mistake in originally describing it as medieval.
You won't find much in the way of secular medieval music, much of it is only guessed at because it wasn't notated, whereas you may have more luck with very early church music, most of it vocal, religious music was more often written down.
Last edited by R.Christie at Dec 5, 2008,