#1
My main (and probably only) interest is in the metal genre. The theory complexity (all those chord constructions and such) of Jazz, however, interests me. I'm not at all interested in playing the Jazz genre itself, but I'm wondering if there's a workaround method to learning all those chord constructions without having to go through a Jazz-focused course. Improvisation is always key to music, but in Jazz it takes up a larger portion than I would like; I'd like to focus more on the compositional/theory side than on improv. I'm a beginner, so bear with any misnomers I committed here.
Last edited by G.9 at Dec 7, 2008,
#2
Haha, indeed I would agree to that statement. I'm often looked upon as strange by acquaintances because of my very genre-concentrated music collection; but really... metal is just about all I listen to. I've recently looked into Jazz and Classical stuff. Both offer extremely relaxing (or stimulating) listens, but just aren't exciting enough for me. I can imagine composing and playing classical songs, and enjoying the process, but jazz just doesn't seem to offer that for me.
#3
The only way to get jazz is to live jazz.
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#4
you really should just take a jazz class or course or whatever. Even an independent study would get you on your way. You think there is alot of improvisation in jazz, which there is, but it is intelligent improvisation. Most well trained jazz musicians know the chord progression inside and out and know which notes they have available for a 'good' line.
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#5
The plan was to go through Berklee's Modern Method, and get all the basic techniques down. From there I'm not sure to go. Would Jazz require me to start from square one (this or that), or could I start from later in the specified series (see "Frequently Bought Together")? I was also looking at the chord-related Guitar Grimoire books, though they look more like references than guides.
#8
Quote by bangoodcharlote
If you practive jazz, you'll get better at playing jazz. If you want to get better at metal, play metal.

To answer your question bluntly, no.

I always appreciate a blunt answer.

Thing is, I want to apply the chord complexity of jazz into metal... it's often just power chords in the metal genre.
#9
Quote by G.9
it's often just power chords in the metal genre.
You're not listening to the same metal as me, then. Yes, powerchords are used a lot, but listen to a band like In Flames and notice the crazy harmonies they do.

Unless you go into a jazz breakdown, you're probably not going to use altered dominant chords in metal. What is it that you want to do?
#10
Open your mind and learn to appreciate jazz (and other styles too). THEN spend some time playing and studying it.
shred is gaudy music
#11
Quote by bangoodcharlote
You're not listening to the same metal as me, then. Yes, powerchords are used a lot, but listen to a band like In Flames and notice the crazy harmonies they do.

Unless you go into a jazz breakdown, you're probably not going to use altered dominant chords in metal. What is it that you want to do?

I probably am not. And to answer your question, I really am not sure. I just wanted to have that ability in order to experiment, and see what works and whatnot. I'm beginning to think that immersing myself in jazz is overkill, so again, I'll ask the question if there is a workaround method/book to learning chord construction/progression without having to learn jazz itself.
#12
If you don't like jazz, just forget about it. You shouldn't have to "work around" anything. If you don't appreciate what they are doing, why would you want to incorporate it into your music?
shred is gaudy music
#13
You don't have to play jazz to learn theory. Learn how to construct chords, different scales, and when you have a deeper understanding then you will know what you need to do to get the sound you want.

If you don't like jazz, ignore it, every musical goal can be achieved through many paths.
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.


Quote by MiKe Hendryckz
theory states 1+1=2 sometimes in music 1+1=3.
#14
Quote by The_Sophist
You don't have to play jazz to learn theory. Learn how to construct chords, different scales, and when you have a deeper understanding then you will know what you need to do to get the sound you want.

If you don't like jazz, ignore it, every musical goal can be achieved through many paths.

Sounds fair enough. I guess I'll just have to delve into raw theory, then.
#15
Quote by Nick_
be careful if you study jazz, you might end up liking it.
lol, +1


You don't care so much about the improvising part but more the composing part?

If you know enough theory to improvise over the ever-changing key progressions to some jazz song, you should be able to write a solo to a metal song.


Of course, you definitely don't have to study jazz to learn about chord construction. I sure as hell haven't and I know how to build a good amount of chords.
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#16
A lot of metal players are greatly influenced by jazz players, and one of my best shred guitarist friends once said "Metal is just jazz, played fast with ****loads of distortion".

Topics in jazz have really tangible applications in metal, and it never hurts to learn, right?
#18
Quote by bangoodcharlote
That is completely ridiculous.


Yeah I know, but you can see where the guy was coming from, right?

Where did the metal heads get the harmonic minor scale from? Jazz. Where did they get the whole tone scale? Jazz. I'm not saying they're anything alike, but they have a similar harmonic foundation. Listen to some Charlie Parker, for God's sake. He was using chromaticism and dissonance before Tom Patton were a baby. Max roach was playing with polyrhythms before Mike Portnoy's balls had even dropped. I mean damn.
#19
Alright... so maybe I should just sit down and think this through. I will most likely engage in an independent study, so which series should I like through? Click the following links and then scroll down to the "Frequently Bought Together" section for the full series.

Jody Fisher or Andrew Green
Last edited by G.9 at Dec 6, 2008,
#20
Quote by G.9
Alright... so maybe I should just sit down and think this through. I will most likely engage in an independent study, so which series should I like through? Click the following links and then scroll down to the "Frequently Bought Together" section for the full series.

Jody Fisher or Andrew Green


there both the same (exact same)
so i guess it really doesn't matter

edit: nvm you fixed it
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#21
Quote by KenjiBeast
Where did the metal heads get the harmonic minor scale from?
Classical music, the same place as the jazz guys.

Jazz is plenty hard to play, but it's nothing like metal. I sure a chemistry degree is (almost) as hard as math, but don't say they're basicially the same.
#22
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Classical music, the same place as the jazz guys.

Jazz is plenty hard to play, but it's nothing like metal. I sure a chemistry degree is (almost) as hard as math, but don't say they're basicially the same.


Classical composers almost exclusively use the harmonic minor scale for chords, as the dominant V adds harmonic motion towards the tonic (the minor I). Jazz musicians, lacking classical training, played with the harmonic minor scale as with any other scale, and unlocked it's potential as a darker, exotic sounding alternative to the blues scale. Metalheads play the harmonic minor scale in the fashion of jazz artists, and for the most part (disregarding certain neo-classical acts) not as classically-trained composers.

I'm not saying they're ANYTHING ALIKE. Culturally, melodically, rhythmically. I'm just saying that the theory of jazz in many ways applies to Metal. There, it's said, happy?
#23
Quote by bangoodcharlote
That is completely ridiculous.


is it?? lets listen to steve vai (post zappa)....then the mahavishnu orchestra (john mclaughlin) inner mounting flame...

its not classic rock..not jazz ... the traditional defination...fusion is too vauge...but you can hear those influences in there....even some classical strains if you listen for them...

music is alive and evolves....

miles ... kind of blue

miles .. bitches brew...

both "jazz"....???

you may be playing "jazz" and not know it...

play well

wolf
#24
What you're thinking of in terms of chord "complexity" in jazz is probably not what
you think it is. It's not simply gnarly chord fingerings of "advanced" chords (although
there is some of that). Much of it is just simple 2, 3 note voicings used in different
ways (especially in a combo situation). But that's what makes the sound jazz and
there's no getting around it if you don't like it.

If you want to do "complex" sounding comp riffs and improvs in metal, you'll be much
better off just learning diatonic dyads (like 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and 7ths) and triads.
Up & down the neck. Then you can work these into your rhythmic comping.
#25
Quote by G.9
Alright... so maybe I should just sit down and think this through. I will most likely engage in an independent study, so which series should I like through? Click the following links and then scroll down to the "Frequently Bought Together" section for the full series.

Jody Fisher or Andrew Green


I learned how to play guitar from a jazz drummer, that played bass.

Dork around with bands like RUSH and Dream Theater. They use wide chord voicing in very heavy powerful way. There's a lot of "Jazz" going on in both those bands.
#26
Quote by KenjiBeast
Classical composers almost exclusively use the harmonic minor scale for chords, as the dominant V adds harmonic motion towards the tonic (the minor I). Jazz musicians, lacking classical training, played with the harmonic minor scale as with any other scale, and unlocked it's potential as a darker, exotic sounding alternative to the blues scale. Metalheads play the harmonic minor scale in the fashion of jazz artists, and for the most part (disregarding certain neo-classical acts) not as classically-trained composers.

I'm not saying they're ANYTHING ALIKE. Culturally, melodically, rhythmically. I'm just saying that the theory of jazz in many ways applies to Metal. There, it's said, happy?

I think that is a bit simplistic.
Are you sure of your ground here? are you sure the alternation of the leading tone in a melodic context did not preceed the use of the major V chord in minor key homophonic textures? The historical codification of most harmonic practices into "theory" followed that route, not the route of harmonic practises driving the melodic.
Whilst not saying it is the case here, I find many jazz enthusiasts lay claim to their discipline discovering many musical devices that in actual practise are not new but well known in the broader musical world.
#27
At the risk of sounding rude, I think sometimes there is WAY too much emphasis on theory and analyzing music.

Sure it's great for communication and maybe trying a different approach, or finding that ONE extra note for inspiration, but it has NO value in of itself.

In Jazz: It's not the note you are playing that matters...It's the one you play after it.
Last edited by BeerChurch at Dec 6, 2008,
#28
id love to do jazz lessons, but my theory understanding stops at 3 scales in the first position and the string names :S

but im desperate to learn more.
#31
Yeah, Dream Theater has alot of that. Freak Kitchen is also another very good example of funky chord use.

But yeah, you don't have to learn jazz to learn "jazz chords". But jazz is very inspiring.
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