#1
I've been reading up and learning about music theory..

and i've had a question, so if we have, say G major scale, so maybe a song in the key of G, then if i want to solo over with a minor scale, then i can figure it out by checking the 6th note of the scale which is E minor.. Now my question is E minor has the exact same notes as G major, and because of that it has the same shapes as G major, so how does the sound would be different, because when you play a E minor shape let's say on the third position, you are basically playin E minor too... How do these two differ in sound?


Also, i've been workin on writing some songs, so usually i come up with a rhytm/progression, and the figure out the key so that i can impro over it. In a song, the riffs and bridges and everything are based on the scale too right? So i've recorded the rhytm for like 3 minutes, and i just play the scale over it, and hope that i can find some notes at a certain position that sound great with the rhtym so that i can somehow turn them into riffs or stuff that i can use in the song, instead of just soloing.. Is this a proper way of working on a song..

Thanks...
#2
Well you may be using the emin scale shape over that gmaj chord, but hopefully you wil be hitting the the 135 of the Gmaj chord. So you actually wouldn't be playing Emin. All the modes have the same notes, the difference is the note that you start and end on.
#3
If you're playing the notes G A B C D E F# over a G major progression, you are playing G major. There aren't exceptions to this. It is impossible to play an Em scale over this.
#4
There are 3 different types of minor scale: harmonic, melodic and natural. Natural has the exact same notes as the relative major key, so E natural minor is the same as G major. The difference is in the way you play on the scale, you have to use E as the root note rather than G. Mess around on the scale for a while, ending your phrases on E and you should be able to make it much more minor. Harmonic and melodic minor have different notes to the major scale so you should probably start with the natural minor scale and learn those later.

For writing songs, a good idea would be to just listen to your rhythm section for a while and see if you can come up with any riffs in your head, then work them out on guitar. This will help your ear a lot too. When you're improvising a solo you should aim for notes in the chord you're playing to make the solo more melodic.

Hope something here helps, I'll admit I'm **** at some of the stuff I'm telling you to do here.
#5
The "way you play the scale" is irrelevant, if you're in the key of G major and are using the notes G A B C D E F# then that scale is always G major.

If you're playing over chods in the key of G but want to use a minor scale then you would use G minor.

Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive...it's not really there to help you choose what to play, it's more to explain whatever it is you've played.
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Last edited by steven seagull at Dec 7, 2008,
#6
Quote by yourface?
There are 3 different types of minor scale: harmonic, melodic and natural. Natural has the exact same notes as the relative major key, so E natural minor is the same as G major. The difference is in the way you play on the scale, you have to use E as the root note rather than G. Mess around on the scale for a while, ending your phrases on E and you should be able to make it much more minor. Harmonic and melodic minor have different notes to the major scale so you should probably start with the natural minor scale and learn those later.

For writing songs, a good idea would be to just listen to your rhythm section for a while and see if you can come up with any riffs in your head, then work them out on guitar. This will help your ear a lot too. When you're improvising a solo you should aim for notes in the chord you're playing to make the solo more melodic.

Hope something here helps, I'll admit I'm **** at some of the stuff I'm telling you to do here.

yes i get it, i never paid much attention to the root note thing, i'll try to do pay more attention and try to see the difference it makes

and about the music writing, that does make sense.. for some reason when i'm listening to it, i can always come with drum beats in my head that would sound amazing with the music.. but i'll try to come up with riffs
Last edited by wonderboy87 at Dec 7, 2008,
#7
Quote by steven seagull
The "way you play the scale" is irrelevant, if you're in the key of G major and are using the notes G A B C D E F# then that scale is always G major.

If you're playing over chods in the key of G but want to use a minor scale then you would use G minor.

Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive...it's not really there to help you choose what to play, it's more to explain whatever it is you've played.


i don't know man, are you 100% sure, i've read dozens of articles and lessons on this, and i'm pretty sure, G major and E natural minor are related because you can use them both on the same key (G) and they would sound good...
#8
There are more than just those three minor scales, Yourface. You've forgotten the modes of those scales.

Quote by wonderboy87
i don't know man, are you 100% sure, i've read dozens of articles and lessons on this, and i'm pretty sure, G major and E natural minor are related because you can use them both on the same key (G) and they would sound good...
You can't play Em over a G progression. It's not that you shouldn't; it's actually impossible.
#9
Quote by wonderboy87
i don't know man, are you 100% sure, i've read dozens of articles and lessons on this, and i'm pretty sure, G major and E natural minor are related because you can use them both on the same key (G) and they would sound good...


It sounds good because its not E minor, it's G major.
I intend no offense by this (everyone has to learn at some point), but you don't seem to understand what scales and keys are. I suggest reading the theory sticky and the Crusades articles.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#10
it's more simple then you'd think. to change from G to Em, the progression has to turn from major to minor (the rhythm), the tonal center would be E, instead of G

but what you might want to know is about modes, and i don't think you're quite ready for that yet.
#11
If e-minor and G-major are the same shapes, you're playing them wrong... when playing in a minor key the only difference is the shapes... and E isn't the minor of G, G is the minor of E...
#12
Yes dude, everyones sure, E is not the relative minor of G... here's a trick... whenever you have a root note, the note 3 frets lower from that note, is the relative minor...
#13
Quote by JesterShred
Yes dude, everyones sure, E is not the relative minor of G... here's a trick... whenever you have a root note, the note 3 frets lower from that note, is the relative minor...


And you're saying that the note three frets lower than E is G?
Don't double post.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#14
Quote by steven seagull
The "way you play the scale" is irrelevant, if you're in the key of G major and are using the notes G A B C D E F# then that scale is always G major.

If you're playing over chods in the key of G but want to use a minor scale then you would use G minor.

Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive...it's not really there to help you choose what to play, it's more to explain whatever it is you've played.



You're not talking about the G major scale, you're talking about the G ionian mode. A G major scale is a collection of notes, the mode designates one single note as a tonic.

In order to play in E minor over G major, you just need to make sure your melodies center around and end on E instead of G. The notes of these scales, however. Y'all is CRAZY.
#15
Quote by Archeo Avis
It sounds good because its not E minor, it's G major.
I intend no offense by this (everyone has to learn at some point), but you don't seem to understand what scales and keys are. I suggest reading the theory sticky and the Crusades articles.


yeah probably eh.. i'm making my way through the crusades..

i know if the song is in the key of C, then it will have the M m m M and so on chords like C Dm Em F right?


ok now i feel more lost than i was before i started this thread..

for the purpose of education, if there is a solo based on E natural minor scale, then what key would the progression of this solo be?
Last edited by wonderboy87 at Dec 7, 2008,
#16
Quote by wonderboy87
yeah probably eh.. i'm making my way through the crusades..

i know if the song is in the key of C, then it will have the M m m M and so on chords like C Dm Em F right?


The scale can be harmonized to create those chords, yes. You are not restricted to those chords however, and it is entirely possible to make use of all twelve tones of the chromatic scale while remaining firmly is a single key.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#17
There's lots of good posts in here, and some shockers too. I'm not going to single anyone out I'll just post myself and hope it helps you out wonderboy87...
Quote by wonderboy87
I've been reading up and learning about music theory..

and i've had a question, so if we have, say G major scale, so maybe a song in the key of G, then if i want to solo over with a minor scale, then i can figure it out by checking the 6th note of the scale which is E minor.. Now my question is E minor has the exact same notes as G major, and because of that it has the same shapes as G major, so how does the sound would be different, because when you play a E minor shape let's say on the third position, you are basically playin E minor too... How do these two differ in sound?
Okay...
The way a scale sounds has to do with the unique set of intervals between the root note and the individual notes of the scale.
Hence G major is G A B C D E F# G. If you name the intervals you get
ROOT - Maj2nd - Maj3rd - P4th - P5th - Maj6th - Maj7th - Octave(ROOT)

If you look at the Em scale you get E F# G A B C D E. The intervals are
ROOT - Maj2nd - min3rd - P4th - P5th - min6th - min7th - Octave(ROOT)

So you see how the two scales - though using the same notes - have an entirely different structure.

If you are starting with a G major progression then that harmony/ chord progression would clearly outline a G root note. The notes you play over top will sound in relation to this note.

So it doesn't matter where you start or end your phrasing- if you play the notes A B C D E F# G over the progression it will sound G major because that is what your ear identifies as the stable/root tone and you will automatically interpret the other notes in relation to that G sound.

If you play and resolve your melodic phrase to the E as the harmony resolves to the G you will simply be implying a G6 chord - not a solo in Em - since your ear will hear the E as a maj6th above the G root and not as the root itself.

As far as relative minor you have the right idea. In a major scale the 6th degree is the root of the relative minor scale. One common songwriting technique is to switch between relative major and minor as you switch between parts in the song verse chorus or bridge etc.

If you want your solo to be in minor then you could change your progression to a Gm progression or an Em progression or any other minor key. The main thing is that you establish a root and use a minor third instead of major third to bring out that minor quality.

Quote by wonderboy87
Also, i've been workin on writing some songs, so usually i come up with a rhytm/progression, and the figure out the key so that i can impro over it. In a song, the riffs and bridges and everything are based on the scale too right? So i've recorded the rhytm for like 3 minutes, and i just play the scale over it, and hope that i can find some notes at a certain position that sound great with the rhtym so that i can somehow turn them into riffs or stuff that i can use in the song, instead of just soloing.. Is this a proper way of working on a song..

Thanks...

There is no "proper way" of working on a song. The best thing to do is to learn songs you like and figure out what parts or chord movements are really cool and what makes them work. Then start incorporating the same techniques into your own songs in different ways. In my mind the only thing you have to do is - be creative and have fun.

Good Luck
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Dec 7, 2008,
#18
Quote by 20Tigers
There's lots of good posts in here, and some shockers too. I'm not going to single anyone out I'll just post myself and hope it helps you out wonderboy87...Okay...
The way a scale sounds has to do with the unique set of intervals between the root note and the individual notes of the scale.
Hence G major is G A B C D E F# G. If you name the intervals you get
ROOT - Maj2nd - Maj3rd - P4th - P5th - Maj6th - Maj7th - Octave(ROOT)

If you look at the Em scale you get E F# G A B C D E. The intervals are
ROOT - Maj2nd - min3rd - P4th - P5th - min6th - min7th - Octave(ROOT)

So you see how the two scales - though using the same notes - have an entirely different structure.

If you are starting with a G major progression then that harmony/ chord progression would clearly outline a G root note. The notes you play over top will sound in relation to this note.

So it doesn't matter where you start or end your phrasing- if you play the notes A B C D E F# G over the progression it will sound G major because that is what your ear identifies as the stable/root tone and you will automatically interpret the other notes in relation to that G sound.

If you play and resolve your melodic phrase to the E as the harmony resolves to the G you will simply be implying a G6 chord - not a solo in Em - since your ear will hear the E as a maj6th above the G root and not as the root itself.

As far as relative minor you have the right idea. In a major scale the 6th degree is the root of the relative minor scale. One common songwriting technique is to switch between relative major and minor as you switch between parts in the song verse chorus or bridge etc.

If you want your solo to be in minor then you could change your progression to a Gm progression or an Em progression or any other minor key. The main thing is that you establish a root and use a minor third instead of major third to bring out that minor quality.


There is no "proper way" of working on a song. The best thing to do is to learn songs you like and figure out what parts or chord movements are really cool and what makes them work. Then start incorporating the same techniques into your own songs in different ways. In my mind the only thing you have to do is - be creative and have fun.

Good Luck



hey you know what this does make more sense.. since you clearly outlined how with Em, there is a min3 and not M3... I think i know what you mean when you say your ear will interpret the Em or G based on the resolution chord or note... I think.. lol Thanks

Quote by wonderboy87


for the purpose of education, if there is a solo based on E natural minor scale, then what key would the progression of this solo be?
also can someone just answer this question?
#19
eh... it's convenient that the solo is based on the key of the progression instead. you don't build songs from solos do you now?
#20
Quote by RCalisto
eh... it's convenient that the solo is based on the key of the progression instead. you don't build songs from solos do you now?


no, progression first then solo....

that's why i said "for the purpose of education" assuming you do it like that
#21
Quote by KenjiBeast
You're not talking about the G major scale, you're talking about the G ionian mode. A G major scale is a collection of notes, the mode designates one single note as a tonic.

In order to play in E minor over G major, you just need to make sure your melodies center around and end on E instead of G. The notes of these scales, however. Y'all is CRAZY.


If the "melodies center around and end on E instead of G" then you are playing in E Minor, not G major. You cannot play Em over Gmaj. Period.
#22
You're not talking about the G major scale, you're talking about the G ionian mode. A G major scale is a collection of notes, the mode designates one single note as a tonic.

In order to play in E minor over G major, you just need to make sure your melodies center around and end on E instead of G. The notes of these scales, however. Y'all is CRAZY.


No. Modal music has nothing whatsoever to do with this. No one is talking about the G ionian mode. If the harmony suggests G major, the notes GABCDEF# are G major, regardless of the order in which you play them or the notes you start/end on.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#23
Quote by wonderboy87
Quote by wonderboy87


for the purpose of education, if there is a solo based on E natural minor scale, then what key would the progression of this solo be?

also can someone just answer this question?


If you wrote a melody in the key of E minor (a solo is a melody) and wanted to lay some harmonic foundation underneath then you will want to strengthen the key ideas that make it an Em solo. To do this you would use a harmony that reinforces the E root and also outlines the minor quality present in the melody. You would do this by using the Em scale.

Using any other root note for your progression would significantly alter the way the solo sounds against the new root note.

Using an E major type harmony is possible but you'd have to be careful about how you do this as there is potential to have some uncomfortable clashes between the different major and minor thirds.

You would typically use an Em progression for an Em solo.
Si
#24
thanks guys.. these make more sense.. i thought the key condition was that as long as you used the relative chords off of G, you would be playin in the key of G, but i guess you have to make sure the song "resolves" to G or ends on G.. even though i'm not totally sure on this but i think i know what you mean.. G needs to be base note, and stuff.. and if i wanna play Em, then i would have to make sure i use the Em note/chord as a base and find ways to make it stand out
#25
^Your post isn't really inaccurate, but it seems like you're very unsure of what you're saying. Please read the lesson in my sig, the lessons in Freepower's sig, and the Crusade articles.