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#1
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/a/afi/a_winters_tale_ver2_tab.htm

Above song, what key is it in. I'm trying to decifer how he came about putting the lead notes over the chords but on the mode master I can't match up all the notes on one key/scale?


And when playing in key of C can you play the scale anywhere on the fretboard as long as its in that key, being that there a rythm guitar playing chords in key of C?
#2
he probably just found something that sounded good.

and, for the most part, yes.

also, theory is not gay, it doesnt have a sexual preference last time i checked.
Well Enough Alone
#3
Quote by ldiablo233
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/a/afi/a_winters_tale_ver2_tab.htm

Above song, what key is it in. I'm trying to decifer how he came about putting the lead notes over the chords but on the mode master I can't match up all the notes on one key/scale?


And when playing in key of C can you play the scale anywhere on the fretboard as long as its in that key, being that there a rythm guitar playing chords in key of C?

I agree theory is gay seriously it's hurts my head, it hurts when I just read the word theory so I can't help sorry lol

Edit: I am trying to learn theory it's not like I'm not trying, just thought I'd mansion that so you don't think I'm a total noob.
Last edited by xXguitard00dXx at Dec 10, 2008,
#4
Quote by guitardude11
also, theory is not gay, it doesnt have a sexual preference last time i checked.

Hear hear, that's what I was thinking. I don't even think it's sentient.
#5
theory is fun and without it your only half a guitarist. without it IMO your gonna be doing a whole lot of guess work and it will take u much longer to write your own songs. I suggest learning it, its not that difficult acually.
#6
I love theory! But thats probably just because i love music.
Quote by joshjhasarrived
Little does the government suspect that it's funds are being rapidly drained through funding infinite free cardboard boxes to bored teenagers on an internet forum.
#8
Quote by Shredder Shane
theory is fun and without it your only half a guitarist. without it IMO your gonna be doing a whole lot of guess work and it will take u much longer to write your own songs. I suggest learning it, its not that difficult acually.


Well then tell me EXACTLY where to go and EXACTLY what to read and EXACTLY step by step how you came about learning it. I know its very helpful but no good if you can't figure it out.

It would be helpful if someone told my I was right in saying its F major.
Last edited by ldiablo233 at Dec 10, 2008,
#9
Quote by ldiablo233
Well then tell me EXACTLY where to go and EXACTLY what to read and EXACTLY step by step how you came about learning it. I know its very helpful but no good if you can't figure it out.


Start with the Crusades articles on this website
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#10
Checked out the song on youtube, it's in D minor and in the chorus it modulates to F major. Pretty basic song. The good news is with this sort of music it is very easy to improvise.

Learn your major scales, minor scale, pentatonic and muck around with backing tracks, you'll be set. The biggest thing is learning what notes go with each other and the only way to do this is develop your ear, start learning scales and the notes (away from your guitar) and how chords are built up.
#11
I figured out it (atleast the intro with lead) is F major. But D minor seems to have the same notes how can you tell the difference?
#12
Quote by ldiablo233
Well then tell me EXACTLY where to go and EXACTLY what to read and EXACTLY step by step how you came about learning it. I know its very helpful but no good if you can't figure it out.

It would be helpful if someone told my I was right in saying its F major.


for starters read the articles on the site, here is one article

or u can go totally basic and go to ZeGuitarists articles (the ultimate guitar to guitar) they are basic but overall a very good lesson for starters
#13
Well the thing is F major and D minor are related keys. You will see them work with each other all the time. Same as C major and A minor, G minor and Bb Major, etc. etc. The minor key D minor is the "Relative minor" of F major.

Look at this F major chord:

F A C

And D minor:

D F A

If you see this on a piano, you'll see this is a pretty close chord. If I added a D to that first F chord, it would become a D minor 7 chord.

Now.

The easiest way for you to tell the difference between these keys is for you to sit down and play them on a piano and see how they work. You'll get told in the beginning of theory lessons that major keys are "happy" and minor keys are "Sad". This is a very dumbed down version of the fact but yeah, it's sort of true. (In many cases)

You also work out what key songs are in, and the difference between major and minor by looking at the progression.

For example, let's look at the "punk" progression you'll hear in every blink 182 song...

C G Aminor F, back to C...etc. etc.

Thats in C major. We start on C, the tonic, then we go to chord 5 of the scale (5 notes up from C) and then the sixth degree of the scale (Aminor) and then F, chord 4. Remember the sixth degree of the scale is usually minor unless otherwise noted.

This is also the verse to Let it Be by the Beatles, and 1000000 other songs.

So we know this is C major.

If it were A minor, the relative minor of C major, we might have a different progression...

Take this one for example:

Am C G and back to A minor.

The fact that we started on A minor and ended on Aminor is one clue. But it also carries that solem tone throughout, A minor, C major, Gmajor, which leads us back to the A minor chord.

Play these progressions on the piano or your guitar (piano is better) to see how this works.

It's important to learn the basic chord progressions in major and minor keys. You will see the examples i listed above in thousands of songs.

Every note in a scale is called a degree. Each scale has 7 of them. So, in C we have:

C D E F G A B C

Out of these notes, if you had a song in the key of C, these are the chordds you would most likely use (in a very general way):

C
F
G
Aminor

You might use others but these are the main ones.

If you play a C, then an F, then a C, you still feel like you're in C. IF you play a C, then a G, then C, then Aminor, then C, you still feel you're in C. It feels like "home" which is why it's called a home key.

This is a very very very rough start point the idea here is getting you thinking about notes in the scales and how they interact. I'd be more than happy to actually write a tutorial or book on this if enough people were interested, on how to apply this sort of stuff to guitar playing. Something in depth that started from scratch - the aim being to help guitarists get their theory up to a level that will help them improve and become great.
#15
Quote by ldiablo233
Well then tell me EXACTLY where to go and EXACTLY what to read and EXACTLY step by step how you came about learning it. I know its very helpful but no good if you can't figure it out.

It would be helpful if someone told my I was right in saying its F major.

It took me a really really long time to really understand music theory. No one could ever explain it to me in terms I could understand. It happens on UG a lot, too. When describing "simple" theory, people tend to use terms that aren't universally understood.

http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-definitions/leading%20note

Seems simple enough, but in that definition I can see at least six terms that a beginner would not understand.
Banging on a trash can
Drumming on a street light
#16
I get .1% of it then everything else confuses me to the point of irration. Every lesson is missing example.

"If I added a D to that first F chord" ..whats the F chord?(were I get lost because you tell me to add to a chord when I don't even know what chord I am supposed to be playing) and then if you tell me what that F chord is then add the D to it and make another example, this way I know how to turn a chord into a minor 7th(although I don't know what that means atleast its a start)

Heres a chord progression that I know and I believe it is that same as the above:

e|-----------------
B|-----------------
G|--5-------------
D|--5--5--7--3--
A|--3--5--7--3--
E|------3--5--1-- Key of C goes C(1) G(5) B(7) F(4). I'm geussing all progression is 1st,5th,7th,4th note in that order. And if not what can be used when changing in progression and why(examples!!)

I went to the G major scale and came out with this:
e|-----------------------------------
B|-----------------------------------
G|-------7--4--5-------------------
D|--5---7--4--5-(10)-------------
A|--5---5--2--3-(10)-------------
E|--3-------2----(8)---------------

Now I played the above and it sounded good. I also played each note a full barre chord and it still sounded good:

e|--3---5---2---3---(8)-------------
B|--3---5---2---3---(8)-------------
G|--3---7---4---5---(9)-------------
D|--5---7---4---5--(10)------------
A|--5---5---2---3--(10)-------------
E|--3---5---2---3---(8)--------------

Question is, is this exeptable because the 2nd first note(E note) isn't D its A, but the chord still has D in it....


Now supposed I want to write lead over those chords.

Can I only use the G major scale?

Do I have to follow the 1,5,7,4 rule in the lead notes?

Am I only allowed to use the G and D notes over the first chord?

And if I did a solo over it would I be able to just play up and down anywhere on the scale or do I have to follow the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 note rule when playing the G major?

(A lead and solo example would be very effictive in my learning )


And the song unholy confessions-A7x is in D minor scale, and it does start with D but it doesn't follow the 1,5,7,4 rule and seems to hop around notes.
Last edited by ldiablo233 at Dec 10, 2008,
#17
ldiablo233,

Sorry about that - that was a quick response that I typed out, wasn't sure what your level was so I could be much clearer.

I think what we need is a decent theory guide here that would be a complete from scratch guide. I've been thinking about writing something like it for a long time, and would also like to cover things like backing tracks, writing drum parts, things like that.

If I do write it, it will probably be in Ebook form and a few hundred pages long. I would most likely distribute it for free. Maybe in two parts.

Seeing the amount of theory related posts here gives me a fair bit of inspiration to start. Definitely the idea will be to start completely from scratch so nobody gets confused. I agree there are too many articles that presume knowledge (including my post above).
#18
Quote by ChrisBG
ldiablo233,

Sorry about that - that was a quick response that I typed out, wasn't sure what your level was so I could be much clearer.

I think what we need is a decent theory guide here that would be a complete from scratch guide. I've been thinking about writing something like it for a long time, and would also like to cover things like backing tracks, writing drum parts, things like that.

If I do write it, it will probably be in Ebook form and a few hundred pages long. I would most likely distribute it for free. Maybe in two parts.

Seeing the amount of theory related posts here gives me a fair bit of inspiration to start. Definitely the idea will be to start completely from scratch so nobody gets confused. I agree there are too many articles that presume knowledge (including my post above).

You know what? So have I.
Banging on a trash can
Drumming on a street light
#19
what do you consider to be "from the beginning"

the major scale??

thats what's i think and there plenty of lessons on UG about it. (i think)
Quote by joshjhasarrived
Little does the government suspect that it's funds are being rapidly drained through funding infinite free cardboard boxes to bored teenagers on an internet forum.
#20
There are lessons on the major scale on UG. But clearly the message isn't getting across, and thats because a tutorial will not teach you theory. It will contribute, but you're not going to be a theory master after reading one article.

Theory is done in steps, like learning guitar. You cannot master it quickly. You can learn the concepts but some people take a long time to learn them. You have to do it slowly and combine the theory with something practical.

A lot of it comes down to "what does it SOUND like". Some people really feel music. Some people feel which notes work and what ones don't, and when they read about the theory, it's no suprise to them. It's just "oh, so thats it". But there's still a lot of work involved here.

Ultimately, you want to learn the theory so you can put it in the back of your head and subconsciously make decisions based on what you know. It's like learning the alphabet, you learn it, when you write words you're not thinking of the letters of the alphabet or which number "S" is, you're just writing. And that's the way it should be with music.

For a lot of people theory is always a struggle. But what they need to do is sit down and work at it slowly and surely. A lot of theory is playing by ear - listening to music. Sitting down and playing by ear outdoes any theory book there is. But some people can't do this straight out - maybe this is the first time they have tried it and they need to know exactly what to do in every situation UNTIL the moment arrives when they "just know".

And this comes to everyone who is willing to put in the work.

So an article on a scale is simply just not going to work. You need a lot more to it than a 200 word explanation of what C major is.

So really from the "beginning" isn't the scales but it's getting into a good habit when listening to music and stretching the ear before that should happen.

Unfortunately too many guitarists see theory as one of those things they should learn when they get round to it, too many don't get round to it, and if they do, it's reading articles here and there and really not understanding what's going on. It has to be put into regular daily practice.
Last edited by ChrisBG at Dec 10, 2008,
#21
i think anybody wanting to learn theory needs a teacher. so much easier, and although it seems like you forget everything as soon as you learn it, it seems to come back to you later when you least expect it.. as long as you keep learning.

even learning just basic things, shapes, patterns, progressions, then you can figure things out yourself and make your own theory so to speak. making yourself learn what your actually doing and not learning what by what a book tells you is indispensable, cause music is an aural thing, not a letter on a piece of paper.
Well Enough Alone
#22
Quote by BigFatSandwich
It took me a really really long time to really understand music theory. No one could ever explain it to me in terms I could understand. It happens on UG a lot, too. When describing "simple" theory, people tend to use terms that aren't universally understood.


You can't explain theory to someone in a forum post. There's plenty of web sites
that cover it in different ways and there's books. Graphics help a lot because
trying to explain it in words can make it seem 10x more complex than it really is.
You have to make the effort on your own to understand it. Asking to have it
spoon fed here won't work. Specific questions can be answered here when you've
put in some of your own effort first. That works best.
#23
The way to start learning theory is to see notes on a staff and conceptualize them as parts of your instrument, which means you're probably going to have to buy a book. The reason being taught online doesn't work very well is because it never really makes the connection between the note on the staff and the fret on your guitar which is a necessary connection if you're ever going to hope to understand the major scale.
People writing songs that voices never shared
No one dared
Disturb the Sound of Silence
#25
I don't see why someone who doesn't want to learn theory is a prick.. pretty harsh

theres some damn good players who know jack **** about theory.. music is music, someone isn't a prick because they don't have the same approach to music as yourself.
#26
Welp, it's arrogant and I say "prick" a lot.

One is not arrogant because one does not want to learn theory, only foolish, lazy, or misinformed. One is arrogant if one presents a question in such a way that says, "I don't need theory. Just tell me what to do," not to mention foolish.
#27
^ +1, personally i dont think he should have gotten any answers aside from what BGC said
#28
Everyone who doesnt know theory isn't foolish, lazy, or misinformed. They just learned how to play music differently than yourself, theres tons of old blues guys i've met that know nothing about theory.. they aren't foolish, lazy.. or misinformed..

alot of them are badass musicians.


but yeah, the topic starter did come across as an idiot.. hes lucky he had some dude in this topic willing to bust out an essay for him
#29
^ my take on it is that they have what i like to call the "jimi ear" which a lot of people have, it's something you develop in that you don't know names but you know functions, you know the correlation between notes. if someones asking the question they probably don't have this and definitely shouldn't be smack talking theory, expecially when they probably need it (since again, they're asking the question, they probably need it)
#30
Well what would be a good book or video to learn theory. I don't want youtube links I want something whole inside and out and something with pictures and examples.
#32
Theory is gay? Have fun in ****-musicianship land, population-you

But seriously, this sort of thing could easily just go into google. Find some theory lessons at UG, buy some books, etc.
#33
Quote by bangoodcharlote


Don't be an arrogant prick who thinks he's "above" learning theory.



You kept that picture.


Edit: Lol, you were talking about someone being arrogant, when in this thread, you quoted yourself telling TS to listen to you
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
Last edited by metal4all at Dec 10, 2008,
#35
*Reads your post*


*Reads quotes in your sig*


*walks away*
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#37
Seriously studying theory for 2 months will eliminate years
of wasted time.

TS really needs to learn..but is too ignorant for me to be optimistic.
I bet Charlie Brown's teacher's name was Mrs.Hammett
Last edited by Washburnd Fretz at Dec 11, 2008,
#38
you're right, anyone who doesn't want to learn theory isn't a prick, but they are an ignorant dumbass. to do something right, you should want to know everything there is to know about it, saying you don't want to learn something because you think you're above that just means you're just ignorant, and purposeful ignorance is definately a quality most pricks share. think about it this way--theory is just what every one of us does every day, figure **** out on the guitar, it's the collection of what everyone has figured out since day one. if you know more than that, then go ahead, don't learn theory, but i'm willing to bet you don't... and if you think you do... you're ignorant. so in conclusion... if it looks like a prick and smells like a prick...
#39
People just let him be.

If he doesn't wanna learn all theory, then he shouldn't.

I can degrade any of you also in other aspects of life for that matter.

examples:

If you don't know all flavours in culinaire practice, then you shouldn't be allowed to cook.

If you don't know all the names of every colour that man has defined, then ur not allowed to paint.

I can make a list of 100 things. If TS has other priorities in his life, then let it be. It's impossible to learn everything, and you can't degrade someone because he can't. That makes you people 10 times more arrogant then TS.

His thread start was lame, but maybe he's just a kid, or wants to act cool. I thought MT regulars consisted of a higher age group of people then the pit.

/Rant

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Dec 10, 2008,
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