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#1
are there any scales with a diminished tonality that aren't so unstable that they are almost impossible to use?
Quote by zac362
not many ppl have heard of the lochrian mode, mainly cos its only really usefull for mindless shredding
#2
Diminished scales are supposed to be unstable. You don't form chords and chord progressions from them; you use them to create tension, primarily in jazz and fusion.
#3
I wouldn't use a diminished scale as a basis for a composition, unless I'm trying to write an experimental piece. It is unstable though.
#4
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Diminished scales are supposed to be unstable. You don't form chords and chord progressions from them; you use them to create tension, primarily in jazz and fusion.


i'm not talking about making a whole song around it, maybe just a solo or a small melody part for a song. I was just wondering if there was a scale I could play over a static dim7 chord without it resolving to some other note rather than the root of the chord.
Quote by zac362
not many ppl have heard of the lochrian mode, mainly cos its only really usefull for mindless shredding
#5
Quote by SOAD_freak777
i'm not talking about making a whole song around it, maybe just a solo or a small melody part for a song. I was just wondering if there was a scale I could play over a static dim7 chord without it resolving to some other note rather than the root of the chord.


Diminished seventh chords have no root. A static dim7 is not going to resolve anywhere.
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#6
I'd think that basically all Locrian modes played over a Major scale would give you around the same tonality for that specific scale. Right? For example if you play F# Locrian over G Major it would sound like playing B Locrian over C Major. The only thing that you will notice is a difference in the Major scale all togethor and this will result in the different mood. Although you could experience with playing Locrian mode over a different Major mode such as Lydian or even a minor mode like phrygian. I think it depends on what sounds pleasable to the ear. If you say that all diminished scales played over something is unstable then it would be pointless to have diminished at all. Just an idea.
#8
For example if you play F# Locrian over G Major it would sound like playing B Locrian over C Major.


Modes don't work that way. You cannot play F#locrian over a G major progression, and you cannot play B locrian over a C major progression. In fact, you wouldb't play any mode over either of those progressions.
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Last edited by Archeo Avis at Dec 11, 2008,
#9
Quote by Archeo Avis
Diminished seventh chords have no root. A static dim7 is not going to resolve anywhere.


alright now im getting really confused. this may sound stupid but how can it not have a root? if I play a Bdim7 wouldn't the root be B? Is it because the chord is symmetrical that it doesn't have a definent root?
Quote by zac362
not many ppl have heard of the lochrian mode, mainly cos its only really usefull for mindless shredding
#10
Quote by Archeo Avis
For example if you play F# Locrian over G Major it would sound like playing B Locrian over C Major.

Modes don't work that way. You cannot play F#locrian over a G major progression, and you cannot play B locrian over a C major progression. In fact, you would play any mode over either of those progressions.


Can you please clarify that last sentence for me If what you said is true then you could play a F# Locrian over a G major progression because you said you could play any.
#11
Quote by rebel624
Can you please clarify that last sentence for me If what you said is true then you could play a F# Locrian over a G major progression because you said you could play any.


Typo. You wouldn't play any mode over either progression.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#12
Oh so say you were playing a C progression could you use an A Minor mode from any major scale? Depending on what mode you wanted such as A Phrygian or A Aeolian.
#13
Quote by rebel624
Oh so say you were playing a C progression could you use any 3 A Minor modes from any major scale?


if you try playing a relative mode over C major it will just sound like C major.
Quote by zac362
not many ppl have heard of the lochrian mode, mainly cos its only really usefull for mindless shredding
#14
Quote by rebel624
Oh so say you were playing a C progression could you use an A Minor mode from any major scale?


No. If you're playing over a C major progression, you would play C major.
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#15
alright well say you want to solo over a C major progression in D minor. Would you pick any D minor mode to your liking to get a specific feel even if the result is going out of C major and into B major to get a D phrygian mode.
#16
Quote by rebel624
alright well say you want to solo over a C major progression in D minor. Would you pick any D minor mode to your liking to get a specific feel even if the result is going out of C major and into B major to get a D phrygian mode.


If you want to solo in D minor, do it over a D minor progression. If you're playing over a C major progression, use C major. It's not a difficult concept.
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#18
Playing Dminor over a Cmajor Progression will sounds out of key. If you want a minor/aeolian tonality then play A minor, since A minor has the same notes as Cmajor on the guitar.

Or if you looking to add something different to those scales then add chromatic notes.
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#19
What Arch means is that the chord progression dictates what you call the scale played above it. If you play over a G major progression, you're going to play some kind of G scale. You can use the notes from A Dorian all you want, but it's still considered G major.

Scales and modes span the entire fretboard.
#20
If you want a minor/aeolian tonality then play A minor, since A minor has the same notes as Cmajor on the guitar.


The notes CDEFGAB over a C major progression are C major. Period. The note you start/end on, and the order in which you play them is completely irrelevant. If you want to play A minor, do it over an A minor progression.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#21
"Notes" was not the best way to describe what i was saying.

I meant that A minor has the same tones as C major, even if they're different scales, on the guitar. Which is why you can imagine yourself playing A minor mode over a Cmajor progression and not be out of key.
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#22
The diminished scale is used to develop tension. It can largely be played over anything because it is a transition device; you wouldn't use either diminished scale exclusively, maybe to offset the end of something or as a transition into the locrian/super locrian/SLD.

Allislost, A minor is not a mode, it's a scale. You could play A minor over C if it were part of a greater minor progression, but you would not modulate to A aeolian over a C major chord.
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Last edited by Me2NiK at Dec 11, 2008,
#23
You're right, i meant to say Aeolian.

But this brings up Archeo's point. I may think i'm playing A aeolian but like he said, i'm just starting and/or ending on a different note within the C major scale.
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#24
But you're not. The root is A so the context of each note changes drastically. Even though the frequency and pitch of the note is the same, the meaning of that note and its relevance changes. Play an Eb over a C blues progression and then play a D# over some A Aeolian, perhaps you'll see what I mean.
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#25
Quote by bangoodcharlote
What Arch means is that the chord progression dictates what you call the scale played above it. If you play over a G major progression, you're going to play some kind of G scale. You can use the notes from A Dorian all you want, but it's still considered G major.

Scales and modes span the entire fretboard.


When you say play some kind of Gscale do you meen a Mode from the major scale G or a G mode from another major scale? Give me an example of something you would play over a G major progression.
#26
Quote by Me2NiK
But you're not. The root is A so the context of each note changes drastically. Even though the frequency and pitch of the note is the same, the meaning of that note and its relevance changes. Play an Eb over a C blues progression and then play a D# over some A Aeolian, perhaps you'll see what I mean.


A aeolian has no sharps, why would i play a note that takes me completely out of key, if i want to stay in key of Cmajor

Look: CDEFGAB Cmajor

ABCDEFG A Aeolian
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#27
Plus, starting with an "A" note during a C Major chord will give you a C6 sound and it doesn't sound bad at all.
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#28
Quote by allislost
Plus, starting with an "A" note during a C Major chord will give you a C6 sound and it doesn't sound bad at all.


Just because you start on A doesn't mean you're playing in A minor.
And don't double post.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#29
Who said i'm playing in A minor I'm just playing an A, B, C, D, E, F ,G, and then an A, which is all in the key of C Major.

And don't tell me how to post. I chose to not edit my previous comment and decided to add a quick reply.
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#30
And don't tell me how to post. I chose to not edit my previous comment and decided to add a quick reply.


I'm not telling you how to post; the mods are. There are rules against double posting.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#31
The mods can let me know of any wrong doing that i may have committed and with their help I will rectify the problem.

So there is no need for you to say anything, other than to assert some non-existent power over me.
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#32
Quote by allislost
The mods can let me know of any wrong doing that i may have committed and with their help I will rectify the problem.

So there is no need for you to say anything, other than to assert some non-existent power over me.


Get off your God damned cross. I said it precisely so that the modes wouldn't have to get involved, which I would imagine tends to irritate them and often tends to result in warnings. Incidentally, refusing to abide by the rules despite being made aware of them can also result in warnings. "Don't double post" is not a personal ****ing attack, so stop whining.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#33
You use dim chords over altered chords, and almost any chord with an altered 9

So if you want to use the diminished scale, use it over those chords (other chords are acceptable, those are just most common)

An altered chord CAN be used over any dominant chord, and sounds best in the turn around of a progression

End of thread
#34
Quote by allislost
And don't tell me how to post. I chose to not edit my previous comment and decided to add a quick reply.
*Reported*

Now to answer questions.

Quote by rebel624
Give me an example of something you would play over a G major progression.
G natural major, G major pentatonic, G minor pentatonic...

However, you can't play E natural minor, Em Pentatonic, or Bb Major Pentatonic since those don't have their roots as G. This in no way restricts what you can play; it merely states that whatever scale you use to play a melody over a chord progression must be described with the same root as the progression.

Quote by allislost
why would i play a note that takes me completely out of key, if i want to stay in key of Cmajor
Plenty of chromatic tones sound very good.

Quote by allislost

Look: CDEFGAB Cmajor

ABCDEFG A Aeolian
We know that...your point?
#35
Since this entire thread has gone fairly off topic I'd like to direct people over to this thread, created by Sue a while ago, to deal with the issue of Modes:

The Modal Debate

Back on topic, Diminished scales (not including Locrian, which is not only a mode but completely the opposite of what the thread starter seems to be looking for) are, as many have said, mostly used to create tension. With this as their primary purpose they were very usable, perhaps you're just using them too much or in the wrong situation. Have a closer look at what you're doing and see what other options are available maybe?
#37
Quote by Archeo Avis
Get off your God damned cross. I said it precisely so that the modes wouldn't have to get involved, which I would imagine tends to irritate them and often tends to result in warnings. Incidentally, refusing to abide by the rules despite being made aware of them can also result in warnings. "Don't double post" is not a personal ****ing attack, so stop whining.


All you said was "don't double post", in which part does it mention that it's a rule?

All you needed to do was point me to where that is mentioned as a rule, there is no need for you to act as a baby-mod. I've read the rules along time ago, but I'll re-read them to understand what wrong i may have committed since I seem to have forgotten what i read along time ago.

Quote by bangoodcharlote
*Reported*


report all you want. I understand my mistake after reading the forum rules and before you even posted this reply.

So please shut the **** up. You words and actions carry no more weight that the next person that says "*Reported*. I'm sure that Archeo's report was good enough.


Quote by bangoodcharlote
Plenty of chromatic tones sound very good.


If you read what was written before you would understand what i meant by what was said.

Quote by bangoodcharlote
We know that...your point?


That i can use those notes during a Cmajor chord and in that order and it wouldn't be out of key, it couldn't. But some people, even thought it might be incorrect, imagine themselves playing a different mode other than Ionian (like A Aeolian) during a C major chord progression when in fact they are playing a variation of a Cmajor Scale.
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#38
Quote by allislost
All you needed to do was point me to where that is mentioned as a rule, there is no need for you to act as a baby-mod. I've read the rules along time ago, but I'll re-read them to understand what wrong i may have committed since I seem to have forgotten what i read along time ago.
You've been here a year. There is absolutely no excuse for you to not know the basic rules of this website.

Quote by allislost
report all you want. I understand my mistake after reading the forum rules and before you even posted this reply.
You have not corrected your mistake.

Quote by allislost
So please shut the **** up. You words and actions carry no more weight that the next person that says "*Reported*.
Well, yes they do. I've proven my credibility and knowledge for many years.

Quote by allislost
I'm sure that Archeo's report was good enough.
Arch has been around long enough to know that you write "reported" exactly as I did, with an asterisk on both sides; he didn't report you, though I have no idea why.

Quote by allislost
If you read what was written before you would understand what i meant by what was said.
You aren’t leaving the key of C major just because you’re playing an Eb. A blues in C is in the key of C major yet a soloist will use Eb much more than E.

Quote by allislost
That i can use those notes during a Cmajor chord and in that order and it wouldn't be out of key, it couldn't. But some people, even thought it might be incorrect, imagine themselves playing a different mode other than Ionian (like A Aeolian) during a C major chord progression when in fact they are playing a variation of a Cmajor Scale.
This is in fact correct.

For Emphasis And Clarification:

You’re not playing A Aeolian over a C major progression just because the solo sounds sad. Modes are not defined by their “feel,” though many sounds are indicative of specific modes, as “feel” is subjective; your sad could be my bittersweet. Modes are defined by the root of the chord progression and the notes played over it. What I mean by that is, if you just played a static G chord, you could play G Lydian or G Mixolydian over it; those different notes define different modes with the same root.
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