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#1
After recently watching Sicko, I'm just curious as to how everyone feels about this subject matter. Do you think the US should change to a national health care system?? I believe we should change it because there seems to be so many problems with the current system. What are you thoughts on US's health care issue?? any comments will be highly appreciated. THANKS
#2
I agree 100%

That movie was such a tearjerker man. Couldn't stand it.

Was it the french? French right?

We should definitely follow their example.

BY THE WAY: I'm American. Shit sucks.
Last edited by x_thurston_x at Dec 12, 2008,
#3
That movie was a real eye opener
It makes me appreciate our (UK) health system much more.
" Did You know, in Tibet, if they want something, do you know what they do? They give something away."

"Do they ? That must be why they're such a dominant global power."
#4
Aslong as it's done right they seem to work. When i left the UK i believe they were having troubles with how it was run and people who weren't british coming over and scaving off the system.Though i think it's improved now. I wish Australia would get an NHS though.

And +1 to most of what France does.
#5
But universal healthcare is the first step to communism!!


Some Americans are so retarded...
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#6
Quote by BenFoffenbock
But universal healthcare is the first step to communism!!


Some Americans are so retarded...


Better to be a "communist" than dead (or $100,000 in debt)

just sayin....
" Did You know, in Tibet, if they want something, do you know what they do? They give something away."

"Do they ? That must be why they're such a dominant global power."
#7
Yeah that movie p*ssed me off to no ends.
I'm from scotland so our national insurance pays for all our healthcare with just 1 flat rate for all medication, you'll typicaly wait in a queue for 5 months for a simple checkup but its free. yay.
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#8
i agree with loubot123. it was definitely an eye opener for me too. But sometimes, i do think that the video was focusing on just the GOOD parts of the health care system in other countries. According to some news articles, those countries with good health care system also have problems.
#9
Quote by Griff_Kid
Aslong as it's done right they seem to work. When i left the UK i believe they were having troubles with how it was run and people who weren't british coming over and scaving off the system.Though i think it's improved now. I wish Australia would get an NHS though.

And +1 to most of what France does.


The NHS is a complete mess, and has been since Thatcher privatised it. Too little funding and not enough nurses/doctors.
#10
Quote by healthy_food
i agree with loubot123. it was definitely an eye opener for me too. But sometimes, i do think that the video was focusing on just the GOOD parts of the health care system in other countries. According to some news articles, those countries with good health care system also have problems.



What I was most shocked at was that US doctors are actually given bonuses from insurance companies if they find ways to turn down more patients who were insured.
Dont get me wrong, the NHS has major problems with waiting lists, but still.
" Did You know, in Tibet, if they want something, do you know what they do? They give something away."

"Do they ? That must be why they're such a dominant global power."
#11
I'm pro capitalist but against greedy corporations. For the record however, and I know some of you know this already, sicko is not a documentary, and michael moore has been proven to be misleading on more than one occasion. I'm just saying...

You get what you pay for. You really do.
#12
Quote by Sloofus
I'm pro capitalist but against greedy corporations. For the record however, and I know some of you know this already, sicko is not a documentary, and michael moore has been proven to be misleading on more than one occasion. I'm just saying...

You get what you pay for. You really do.


clearly he hasnt included anything that would go against his arguments, of course its totally bias but thats the point, I dont think he would add in anything that made any of his points invalid, but it wouldnt matter to me, the points he showed were shocking, anyone who hasnt watched this really should.
" Did You know, in Tibet, if they want something, do you know what they do? They give something away."

"Do they ? That must be why they're such a dominant global power."
#13
WARNING: the teenaged communists have shown up:

I don't live in America, but I do live in a country with an ever -decreasing Universal Healthcare system.

I think the NHS is brilliant, but it's being privatised piecemeal, and you can't force healthcare to work in a private market, because then you end up with tiered healthcare, and health trusts saying yeah, we can't give you this drug because it's too expensive.

There are two main issues with Universal Healthcare:

1) It needs to be 100% a public-sector industry, with absolutely no private competition allowed, this includes Dentristry, Opticians, etc etc.
2) It's real expensive, so the government and taxpayers have to be prepared to make the commitment.
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#14
Quote by Sloofus
I'm pro capitalist but against greedy corporations. For the record however, and I know some of you know this already, sicko is not a documentary, and michael moore has been proven to be misleading on more than one occasion. I'm just saying...

You get what you pay for. You really do.


I agree with you that michael moore is misleading, but if you look at the lives of some people, it is actually true. They have been getting absolutely screwed by the health care system because of government corruption.
#15
Well if we exam the second post of this thread, you'll see my next point:

Emotions are a pretty hard thing to control and they can influence our thoughts and decisions quite effectively. Not that we shouldn't show sympathy for those who are in need, but surely michael moore aims to affect people's emotions, and from withholding information, deliberately keeping it away, I find it very deceptive, and in turn, find michael moore to be a bastard with an arse that's about to collapse into itself like a neutron star.
#16
I think we can all have a discussion about pretty much anything without ever needing to reference the douche that is Michael Moore.
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#17
If you don't want universal healthcare then you will have to justify why people should suffer from curable diseases just because they are poor.
Good luck with that.
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"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
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#18
Living in the UK and having not seen Sicko my opinion would be that the U.S.A is simply to large for a national health system.

Personally i think it should either be state sponsored or in the case of some states - enforced.

Having medical insurance being made compulsory would go a long way to resolving the issue however the biggest thing is the diabolical behaviour of the Medical Insurance companies of which there is a huge amount of literature. That is the most radical change that needs to be implemented.
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Originally Posted by ihavnofingrprnt
well there are only three true people alive today who are actually possesed by satan

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#19
well in that case...

I have privatized healthcare. I like it. I feel very secure in not having to wait for a doctor for a potentially dangerous condition. And I want my future family to have all of that, which NHS will not give them at this point.

Call me selfish. I will provide the best for my family. Damn the rest of the world.
#20
Quote by Ur all $h1t
If you don't want universal healthcare then you will have to justify why people should suffer from curable diseases just because they are poor.
Good luck with that.


Being poor is their justification.

If you want the privileges then you're just gonna have to climb to the top of the pile.

EDIT:

Quote by Sloofus
well in that case...

I have privatized healthcare. I like it. I feel very secure in not having to wait for a doctor for a potentially dangerous condition. And I want my future family to have all of that, which NHS will not give them at this point.

Call me selfish. I will provide the best for my family. Damn the rest of the world.


It's fortunate that you have the means to provide the best for your family isn't it.
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#21
I am against it. It takes money away from people who earned it and gives it to people who didn't (AKA Socialism).

Better dead than red.
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#22
Quote by subliminaldelta
I am against it. It takes money away from people who earned it and gives it to people who didn't (AKA Socialism).

Better dead than red.



AKA ignorance.
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#23
Quote by Ur all $h1t
If you don't want universal healthcare then you will have to justify why people should suffer from curable diseases just because they are poor.
Good luck with that.


Because universal healthcare will drop down the salary of doctors, resulting in less people wanting to BE doctors, resulting in less research in the medical field, resulting in dramatically less efficient health care in a matter of generations.
#24
Quote by subliminaldelta
I am against it. It takes money away from people who earned it and gives it to people who didn't (AKA Socialism).

Better dead than red.


I hope your joking.
" Did You know, in Tibet, if they want something, do you know what they do? They give something away."

"Do they ? That must be why they're such a dominant global power."
#25
Socialized Medicine is a great idea in my opinion. I haven't seen all of sicko but I've talked to a lot of people from other countries and those visiting other countries and the US's worries or lies mislead the public as the other people I've talked to have no issues with their socialized medical system. I've talked to people from Canada, Europe, and India on this. They all say if its a normal check-up that you wait a little while but if you need medical assistance its there, its free, and they have much more confidence in their doctor's compared to our greedy, money making, US system. The almighty dollar, that's the face of my country anymore.
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#26
Quote by Trickycindy
Being poor is their justification.

If you want the privileges then you're just gonna have to climb to the top of the pile.

EDIT:


It's fortunate that you have the means to provide the best for your family isn't it.


I didn't/will not screw anyone anywhere to get where I am/where i will be.

I feel plenty of sympathy though, and donate to the less fortunate when I can.
#27
Quote by Sloofus
Because universal healthcare will drop down the salary of doctors, resulting in less people wanting to BE doctors, resulting in less research in the medical field, resulting in dramatically less efficient health care in a matter of generations.

Ireland has free healthcare. Our doctors have to achieve 590 points in their examinations (600 being the most you can get and 200 and something being the average). I'll wager our standard is higher than yours.
Our doctors are also very very very well paid. Like ridiculously so.

Quote by Sloofus
I didn't/will not screw anyone anywhere to get where I am/where i will be.

Theory of surplus value bitch. In order to make a profit you have to steal.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#28
Seeing the direction this thread is taking is annoying but still.

The "Socialist" viewpoint has it's merits - why should their be meritocracy when it comes to the fundamental right to life?

However the "Capitalist" for want of a better word mentality is not without it's plus points. Because someone is fortunate, hardworking, and as a result well paid or has the funds to do so, why should they not use that wealth to provide for their family. It's not like they're taking the money away from anyone - they've earnt it and they choose to use it to ensure the security of their family!

The fundamental problem with any kind of welfare state benefit is simply that there will always be people who will try and take the p*** and this I think annoys everyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihavnofingrprnt
well there are only three true people alive today who are actually possesed by satan

Dakota Fanning, the kfc general dude, and my neighbor and all of them dont have much musical ability
#29
Quote by Ur all $h1t
Ireland has free healthcare. Our doctors have to achieve 590 points in their examinations (600 being the most you can get and 200 and something being the average)
Our doctors are also very very very well paid. Like ridiculously so.


Dude, I'm really glad it works for you folks, but America is quite different, as is the american mind (in general, obviously there are plenty of exceptions to the rule).

Though I love my country, I'm quite often sickened by the materialism that I see shining through some of it's citizens.

My argument is relatively weak I understand, though if you lived here for 22 years you may think otherwise.
#30
Quote by Sloofus
Dude, I'm really glad it works for you folks, but America is quite different, as is the american mind (in general, obviously there are plenty of exceptions to the rule).

Though I love my country, I'm quite often sickened by the materialism that I see shining through some of it's citizens.

My argument is relatively weak I understand, though if you lived here for 22 years you may think otherwise.

I hve lived in America mate, and I'm a citizen. You're not as different as you think. About the only real difference in mentality from Ireland to America was that you guys are a bit more insular.
There is no reason why it wouldn't work. In no other country has the standard of Doctors dropped. I mean its a silly assumption anyway as it assumes that the best doctors become doctors solely for the money. Many of my friends are med students and money is secondary issue for them. If they wanted money they'd do computer science or business. You become a doctor because you're interested in medicine and you have a desire to help people, if you don't then you're going to be a bad doctor.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#31
Quote by loubot123
I hope your joking.


Really now?

Look up the controversy surrounding the Walter Reed Army Hospital. How is that any different then socialized healthcare?

And before you get all hot and bothered, read these two articles:


Americans have better care and shorter wait times than Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the United Kingdom.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15160810

Americans have the highest cancer survival rate.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1560849/UK-cancer-survival-rate-lowest-in-Europe.html

And don't say "B-b-but Michael Moore said...". I am so sick of hearing this bull****. Allow me to direct you to http://bullmouth.blogspot.com/2007/07/michael-moore-new-film-sicko-exposed.html

Good day. And God Bless America.
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#32
Quote by subliminaldelta
Really now?

Look up the controversy surrounding the Walter Reed Army Hospital. How is that any different then socialized healthcare?

And before you get all hot and bothered, read these two articles:


Americans have better care and shorter wait times than Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the United Kingdom.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15160810

Americans have the highest cancer survival rate.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1560849/UK-cancer-survival-rate-lowest-in-Europe.html

And don't say "B-b-but Michael Moore said...". I am so sick of hearing this bull****. Allow me to direct you to http://bullmouth.blogspot.com/2007/07/michael-moore-new-film-sicko-exposed.html

Good day. And God Bless America.

All of which is irrelevant if you can't access it because you don't have the money.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#33
Quote by Sloofus
Dude, I'm really glad it works for you folks, but America is quite different, as is the american mind (in general, obviously there are plenty of exceptions to the rule).

Though I love my country, I'm quite often sickened by the materialism that I see shining through some of it's citizens.

My argument is relatively weak I understand, though if you lived here for 22 years you may think otherwise.


You're not being accused of explicit theft or climbing over people as it were, however it is implicit in the American capitalist system as Ural$h1t said, that those at the top have got there by climbing over the wreckage of those, who for reasons of lack of same standard of education, opportunites, race, blah blah etc haven't got there.

I'm not saying we should give all the "poor people" hummers and re-house them in the Capitalist's mansions, but when it comes to healthcare, it is disgusting to see the barbaric way that humans treat those less fortunate than themselves when they're instrumental in keeping them in that lowly positition.

Modern western nations, even capitalist paradises like the US have no excuse not to provide free universal healthcare, except the burning need to rinse a profit out of others' misery.

What kind of an excuse is that.
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#34
Quote by subliminaldelta
Really now?

Look up the controversy surrounding the Walter Reed Army Hospital. How is that any different then socialized healthcare?

And before you get all hot and bothered, read these two articles:


Americans have better care and shorter wait times than Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the United Kingdom.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15160810

Americans have the highest cancer survival rate.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1560849/UK-cancer-survival-rate-lowest-in-Europe.html

And don't say "B-b-but Michael Moore said...". I am so sick of hearing this bull****. Allow me to direct you to http://bullmouth.blogspot.com/2007/07/michael-moore-new-film-sicko-exposed.html

Good day. And God Bless America.


As I have already said, Michale Moore is Bias and I understand oposing points and observations, but your last post was presuming that everyone who is poor/cant afford health care is there becuase of there own faults. The majority of US people cannot afford upwards of $10,000 everytime they visit the hospital.
" Did You know, in Tibet, if they want something, do you know what they do? They give something away."

"Do they ? That must be why they're such a dominant global power."
#35
Quote by Ur all $h1t
I hve lived in America mate, and I'm a citizen. You're not as different as you think. About the only real difference in mentality from Ireland to America was that you guys are a bit more insular.
There is no reason why it wouldn't work. In no other country has the standard of Doctors dropped. I mean its a silly assumption anyway as it assumes that the best doctors become doctors solely for the money. Many of my friends are med students and money is secondary issue for them. If they wanted money they'd do computer science or business. You become a doctor because you're interested in medicine and you have a desire to help people, if you don't then you're going to be a bad doctor.


Dual citizenship? I only assume because earlier you referred to Irish doctors as "our" doctors.

And don't be confused by my opinion of doctors, I love them, I love what they do, and the lives they save, and don't think all of them, not even a majority of them do it for just the money. However I would also like to keep them happy, and keep the field one of the most competed in this country.

however, I earlier stated that my argument was weak, and by no means am I an expert of any kind.
#36
Quote by Sloofus
Dual citizenship? I only assume because earlier you referred to Irish doctors as "our" doctors.

Ya I've dual citizenship. I was born in Ireland and I've lived here for the vast majority of my life so far.

And don't be confused by my opinion of doctors, I love them, I love what they do, and the lives they save, and don't think all of them, not even a majority of them do it for just the money. However I would also like to keep them happy, and keep the field one of the most competed in this country.

however, I earlier stated that my argument was weak, and by no means am I an expert of any kind.
And they are kept happy. They still earn huge sums of money and presumably they do a job that they love.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#37
Quote by Trickycindy
You're not being accused of explicit theft or climbing over people as it were, however it is implicit in the American capitalist system as Ural$h1t said, that those at the top have got there by climbing over the wreckage of those, who for reasons of lack of same standard of education, opportunites, race, blah blah etc haven't got there.

I'm not saying we should give all the "poor people" hummers and re-house them in the Capitalist's mansions, but when it comes to healthcare, it is disgusting to see the barbaric way that humans treat those less fortunate than themselves when they're instrumental in keeping them in that lowly positition.

Modern western nations, even capitalist paradises like the US have no excuse not to provide free universal healthcare, except the burning need to rinse a profit out of others' misery.

What kind of an excuse is that.


I see your argument, and counter with these points:
Not all have torpedoed others to get to the top, or near the top even. I do not see the justice in punishing all for the greed of some.

My NEED as a citizen for private healthcare influences me to excel in education and get a decent job to continue affording it. It MOTIVATES me. I understand not every person has had the same opportunities I have had, but in reality, I haven't had very many great opportunities. I grew up in Cedar Park, TX, a city in between Urban Austin and Rural Leander. The high school is good, though not the greatest by far, and private schooling literally... "schools" my high school.

And I am half mexican

When my parents divorced in my childhood, we (my 2 sisters and 1 brother) all lived with my mother, at poverty levels. I'll be damned if I ever let my kids or (hopefully not) ex-wife get there too

I don't think your argument implies you are communist or socialist at all. And agree that there are some people consumed by greed.
#38
Quote by loubot123
As I have already said, Michale Moore is Bias and I understand oposing points and observations, but your last post was presuming that everyone who is poor/cant afford health care is there becuase of there own faults. The majority of US people cannot afford upwards of $10,000 everytime they visit the hospital.


Would you want to wait in line for 5 months because you got stuck behind a bunch of dependents who just need some Prozac or Focus Factor?
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#39
Quote by Ur all $h1t
Ya I've dual citizenship. I was born in Ireland and I've lived here for the vast majority of my life so far.

And they are kept happy. They still earn huge sums of money and presumably they do a job that they love.


Ooooh I though I'd caught you!

Well my argument was a presumption and if you are accurate 100% with your argument, I retract it.
#40
My argument is simply that I think there should be a free universal healthcare system for every citizen.

You don't have to look at it as socialist or communist, just humanitarian.

There are already punishments in place for "lazy" people who don't/can't/won't work, denying them healthcare is more of a "cruel and unusual" punishment.
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