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#1
I'm writing an essay on this subject, and it interests me enough to ask everybody I come in contact this question. I also have to cite two or three books as a reference, so to spark your interest, the most obvious book about this type of thing in my opinion is Brave New World.

Of course it's only fictional, but is it relevant in our world? Are we really free? I know not everybody in the world is free, like in North Korea, but people in the western world are considered to be free and are supposedly able to do whatever we want, and I think that's what ultimate freedom is, which can actually be a bad this.

Anyway, what do YOU think?


Sorry, this sounds too much like a college question and there's probably a thread on this already but I couldn't find anything, and this could probably go in the philosophy thread, if so, I'll delete it.
#2
They're free to the extent that they do not hurt another person, or if their actions have a negative effect for the people around them.

EDIT:
IMHO


#3
Free to do whatever we please, as long as it's what we're 'allowed' to do. Funny isn't it?
RULE BRITANNIA
#4
People are not free because they cannot freely exercise their labour because they are alienated from the means of production.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#5
Interestingly enough I am reading two essays on the subject right now. How Free Are You by Lisa Jones and Determinism and Free Will by Rob Cook.

Look them up, they are good reading.
"We must become members of a new race, overcoming petty prejudice, owing our ultimate allegiance not to nations, but to our fellow men within the human community."
- H.I.M Haile Selassie I
#6
I thought this was going to be another freewill thread.

Humans do do a part in taking away fellow human's freedom, but that's not always a bad thing. With absolute 100% freedom, with no law to set a guideline, you have anarchy and humans will become sour toward each other and living will be much worse than with basic laws and regulation.

I'm not entirely sure what you question is though.
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#7
Quote by Ur all $h1t
People are not free because they cannot freely exercise their labour because they are alienated from the means of production.


Been reading too much Marx methinks.
"We must become members of a new race, overcoming petty prejudice, owing our ultimate allegiance not to nations, but to our fellow men within the human community."
- H.I.M Haile Selassie I
#8
Quote by Cobain_Is_King
Free to do whatever we please, as long as it's what we're 'allowed' to do. Funny isn't it?


Rather depressing, actually.

But some countries allow more than others, is freedom prohibited in those countries? Am I in the Netherlands 'more free' than you in good ole Scotland, because I'm allowed to do weed?


#9
Quote by Ur all $h1t
People are not free because they cannot freely exercise their labour because they are alienated from the means of production.

I want to sex your brain.
I want to work in revelations, not just spin silly tales for money.I want to fish as deep down as possible into my own subconscious in the belief that once that far down, everyone will understand because they are the same that far down.
#10
We aren't free at all. God controls everthring you do.

edit: I'm joking.
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Last edited by Monolith295 at Dec 15, 2008,
#11
i think true freedom is being able to literally do ANYTHING we want. to kill, to ****, etc. but in our society that denies other people their freedoms because if i can kill and say anything i want then i can deny someone elses freedom by threatening their life (because i have the freedom to do so) if they do not do as i please. But they could fight back but the consequences are that they may be killed. But that is no different then someone fighting back against their government but the consequences could be jail time.

So i guess true freedom can only really genuinly exist if you were alone in the universe...

in my opinion...
#12
Quote by Monolith295
We aren't free at all. God controls everthring you do.


Then why did he give us free will? That God controls everything every person does is a silly concept.
"We must become members of a new race, overcoming petty prejudice, owing our ultimate allegiance not to nations, but to our fellow men within the human community."
- H.I.M Haile Selassie I
#13
Quote by Monolith295
We aren't free at all. God controls everthring you do.

I hope you're joking.
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#14
Doesnt matter what you see
Or into it what you read
You can do it your own way
If its done just how I say

Independence limited
Freedom of choice
Choice is made for you my friend
Freedom of speech
Speech is words that they will bend
Freedom with their exception

People are never truly free, partly because people are regulated by laws etc. but mainly because of emotions and what not.

Freedom is loss of all hope.
#15
Then why did he give us free will? That God controls everything every person does is a silly concept.


For the record I wasnt serious.
Quote by ChemicalFire
He was too stunned by my fresh truths.

Quote by GodofCheesecake
"And I would've gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you darn kids and your meddling and your breakadowns!"

Quote by Nakedbythecomp
Metal is a sub-genre of metalcore since metalcore is more popular therefore better.
#16
Humans still fetch about $50.00 ea. in the Sudan. So no not free.
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#19
Quote by IDread
Been reading too much Marx methinks.

You can never read too much Marx
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#20
Quote by Ur all $h1t
You can never read too much Marx


I take it you have never tried reading Das Kapital then.
"We must become members of a new race, overcoming petty prejudice, owing our ultimate allegiance not to nations, but to our fellow men within the human community."
- H.I.M Haile Selassie I
#21
this far
<---------------------------------------------------------------------->
My red is so confident that he flashes trophies of war and
ribbons of euphoria
#22
basically, EVERY HUMAN BEING ON THIS PLANET IS FREE AND ABLE TO DO WHATEVER IT DESIRES!

However, because we live in something, what is called society, or system if you will, that freedom is shrinked to a ridiculously small amount, compared to the natural origin!! (and depending on the demographical situation of your country, this can go from little, to no freedom at all... well you're allowed to live though )

<<a political regime with total freedom is called Anarchy - a regime with no freedom is Tyranny. We all know what it's about, so those are good examples. Living in a Democracy makes you less than half-free though.>>

Theoretically, you can avoid ALL the forbids (laws) and make yourself guilty, by comitting actions that are against the constitutions, or NOT, and try to make your freedom, without violating anything. Latter, however is pretty much impossible, if you want total freedom. (self-explaining why)

Still, what you CAN practise, is destroying some of the walls, that the society tries to put in our heads every day, and make yourself (feel) "more free" than the average person, but you still will face bounderies which you can not break, unless you act against the societ's will.

but yeah, your will is the only thing that counts, **** the rest
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#23
K I've read the whole thread, and no one has suggested this.

For this to be relevent, you have to believe in God, or at least accept that God created the Earth, which is obviously the problem with this theory.

But, theists (religious people) believe in God, and therefore all of God's qualities, which include being all knowing, all powerful, ever-present, etc.

If we looked at the "all knowing" aspect, God therefore knows all about us. He knows everything we have done, and if he is all knowing, he must know everything that we are going to do. Therefore, God already knows everything we are going to do, even after we die (if you believe in an afterlife). How can we have freewill if God already knows exactly what we are going to do?
#24
Quote by alkaline3trio
K I've read the whole thread, and no one has suggested this.

For this to be relevent, you have to believe in God, or at least accept that God created the Earth, which is obviously the problem with this theory.

But, theists (religious people) believe in God, and therefore all of God's qualities, which include being all knowing, all powerful, ever-present, etc.

If we looked at the "all knowing" aspect, God therefore knows all about us. He knows everything we have done, and if he is all knowing, he must know everything that we are going to do. Therefore, God already knows everything we are going to do, even after we die (if you believe in an afterlife). How can we have freewill if God already knows exactly what we are going to do?


Many years late my friend. Welcome to enlightenment
#25
In the words of Rousseau;

"Man is born free, and everywhere he is in shackles."


Ain't it the truth
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#26
One other thing is that we are not free of time. We have to get things done and sleep eventually. If we lived out in a jungle we'd be trapped by time in that we couldn't venture out by night and that animals could kill us at any moment.

Whoever conquered fire first was more free than the person before him because he wasn't able to leave Africa at night, and the one with fire could. I'm sorry, I don't know where I'm going with this.

So, philosophically, God is free (if there is one). It can do whatever it wants, it's not bound by time (think Slaughterhouse-Five). God can do anything it wants without anyone telling it otherwise. There are more examples but I don't want to list more.


ramble ramble ramble
#27
Quote by alkaline3trio
K I've read the whole thread, and no one has suggested this.

For this to be relevent, you have to believe in God, or at least accept that God created the Earth, which is obviously the problem with this theory.

But, theists (religious people) believe in God, and therefore all of God's qualities, which include being all knowing, all powerful, ever-present, etc.

If we looked at the "all knowing" aspect, God therefore knows all about us. He knows everything we have done, and if he is all knowing, he must know everything that we are going to do. Therefore, God already knows everything we are going to do, even after we die (if you believe in an afterlife). How can we have freewill if God already knows exactly what we are going to do?


if you wanna be really free, than you can choose whether to belive in God or not. So you can easily deny him, like everything else, and have your own freewill. Religion, just like the constitution, is another brick in the wall that makes people "not free"
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A lot of music isn't really going anywhere. There are tons of fans in here going 'oh my god, <> is evolving so much and <> is so shit lol!' but tons of it is just recycled material and tired ideas.
#28
I'm religious, so I won't say much. But I believe humans are not free until they stop living for themselves.

PLEASE don't start a flame war, this is an interesting question to discuss.
We're only strays.
#29
I was having a debate about this with my mum the other day.

Too free. Freedom, is a lovely thing. But now it's just an excuse to do whatever the feck we want.
May the Force be with You.
Carmel is hawt
#30
living for your own is a just as equal part of freedom, as living for other's advantages
Eat this, today's music-lovers!
Quote by rabidguitarist
A lot of music isn't really going anywhere. There are tons of fans in here going 'oh my god, <> is evolving so much and <> is so shit lol!' but tons of it is just recycled material and tired ideas.
#31
Quote by IDread
I take it you have never tried reading Das Kapital then.

I had to read it for class.
It wasn't as bad as everyone said it was gonna be.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#32
Quote by Oblivion_Rps
But now it's just an excuse to do whatever the feck we want.


EVERYONE has excuses for that, myself included. Unfortunately, however, it is deemed quite acceptable.
We're only strays.
#33
If you can argue against free will, using deterministic arguments (not fatalistic determinism or environmental determinism though), then you can quite easily argue that nobody is free. Ever.
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#34
i recomendd yout uto read "Etica para amador" By FernANDO Savater". we will never be free and we are the biggest inconvinient
Ruinas Circulares
#35
Quote by Oblivion_Rps
I was having a debate about this with my mum the other day.

Too free. Freedom, is a lovely thing. But now it's just an excuse to do whatever the feck we want.

Uhh that's what Free Will is... How can you say we are too free? You go to school/college/work right? Why do you do this? What would happen if you didn't?

Not too free if you ask me.

Personally, I can almost see a Marxist edge to this thing. I think the richer you are, the more freedom you havein your life.
#37
Quote by Ur all $h1t
I had to read it for class.
It wasn't as bad as everyone said it was gonna be.


I found it so incredibly dense and boring that I very almost gave up on it. Too much maths for my liking...
"We must become members of a new race, overcoming petty prejudice, owing our ultimate allegiance not to nations, but to our fellow men within the human community."
- H.I.M Haile Selassie I
#38
Quote by alkaline3trio
Uhh that's what Free Will is... How can you say we are too free? You go to school/college/work right? Why do you do this? What would happen if you didn't?

Not too free if you ask me.

Personally, I can almost see a Marxist edge to this thing. I think the richer you are, the more freedom you havein your life.


A criminal who's recorded himself murdering someone can't be forced to show the video if he isn't proven 100% guilty beforehand.

It's against his free will.

That's bullshit IMO. There has to be a line, where your 'free will' gets shoved back down your throat.
May the Force be with You.
Carmel is hawt
#39
Quote by Oblivion_Rps
A criminal who's recorded himself murdering someone can't be forced to show the video if he isn't proven 100% guilty beforehand.

It's against his free will.

That's bullshit IMO. There has to be a line, where your 'free will' gets shoved back down your throat.

That isn't the most compelling argument iv'e ever been faced with, I must admit...
#40
My class were looking at this in college. Mentally we can be truely free, but physically? No, we always have the constraints of laws etc.

It's doubtful we will ever have true freedom, but if you're happy with the level you've got, what's the problem?
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