#1
ok so my theory knowledge is pretty basic. But take for example an A7 chord. You have an A, E, G, and C#. the G is the note that makes it a 7 chord, but that G is found in the A minor scale, but not in the A major scale right? but now consider an A6 chord. A, E, F# and C#. The F# makes it a 6 chord, but the F# is found in the A major scale not A minor. now my question is, and this sounds retarded but its hard to explain, the notes that make it a 7 chord are found in the minor scale but why are the notes that make a 6 chord found in the major scale? im sure i'm thinking about it wrongly, and all back to front but please help me
Originally Posted by Kill Factory
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#2
A7 means A-dominant 7 which is also called a Major Minor chord. Amaj7 would have a G# instead of a G. The thing is that playing A and G# together gets a bit of a dissonant sound and making that into a G natural is more pleasing to the ear.
#5
Sixths and Seventh chords are very different in the way they are formed.

Let's start at the beginning

First there are your triads. These are made by stacking thirds of different kinds.
A brief rundown:
Maj 3rd + Maj 3rd = Augmented Triad (1 3 #5)
Maj 3rd + min 3rd = Major Triad (1 3 5)
min 3rd + Maj 3rd = minor Triad (1 b3 5)
min 3rd + min 3rd = diminished Triad (1 b3 b5)

From here you can then stack another major or minor third on top of the fifth of each of these basic triads to get a different type of seventh chord. Note that we use whatever kind of fifth we have in our basic triad and add the major or minor third to it. So if we have a perfect fifth we might add a major 3rd the result will be a major 7 interval from the root. If it is a b5 in our triad and we add a major third to this we will end up with a minor 7th from the root.

So to get our various seventh chords...

Aug Triad + Maj 3rd = Augmented Triad (a Major 3rd on top of a #5 will give a #7. Since the #7 is enharmonic with the octave of the root the result is a doubling of the root note. This would not create a seventh chord.) (1 3 #5 #7 is enharmonic with 1 3 #5 8).

Moving on...

Aug Triad + min 3rd = Augmented Seventh, or Maj7#5 (1 3 #5 7)

Major Triad + Major 3rd = Major 7th chord (1 3 5 7) - written as Cmaj7

Major Triad + min 3rd = Dominant 7 (1 3 5 b7) - written simply as C7

Minor Triad + Major 3rd = minor Major 7 (1 b3 5 7) - written as Cm/Maj7

Minor Triad + min 3rd = minor 7 (1 b3 5 b7) - written as Cm7

Diminished Triad + Maj 3rd = half diminished 7th or minor 7 flat five (1 b3 b5 b7) - written as either CØ7 or more commonly Cm7b5

Diminished Triad + min 3rd = diminished 7th (1 b3 b5 bb7) - Cdim7 or Cᴼ7

These are the basic triads and seventh chords built from "Tertian Harmony" which means to use thirds for construction.

Unlike a seventh chord (which is built by stacking thirds) a six chord is a basic triad with an added extension of a natural sixth.

The added sixth is always major in quality unless otherwise stated. Hence an Am6 even though a minor triad will have an added Major 6 (not minor 6). It would be spelled 1 b3 5 6. All other extensions are also the same. They are assumed major in quality unless explicitly stated otherwise.

When a chord extension is added to a triad (with no seventh) then it is called an "add" chord.

When a chord extension is added to a seventh chord (seventh present) then the extension simply takes the place of the 7 in the chord name.

So Cadd9 = basic C major triad plus major 9th = 1 3 5 9
but C9 = basic C7 chord (1 3 5 b7) plus a major 9th = 1 3 5 b7 9

The dominant7 chord is called "dominant" because when the major scale is harmonized there is only one chord that has this b7 added to a basic major triad. That is the dominant or V chord.

So if you're looking for a diatonically correct 7th chord for the root of the major scale (i.e. a seventh chord built from the root that uses the notes of the scale then you would be looking at a Maj7 chord.)

So hope this isn't too much to swallow at once and helps you somewhat.

Good Luck.

EDIT: looking at your examples
A7 is A C# E G
A to C# is a maj 3rd
C# to E is a min 3rd
E to G is a min 3rd.

We know that a chord made by stacking a maj 3rd + min 3rd + min 3rd = a dominant 7 or A7. This has nothing to do with the minor scale. It is a feature of a 7th chord built on the fifth degree of the D scale.

D major = D E F# G A B C# D E F# G A B C# D
starting on A and stacking thirds gives us A C# E G = A7 In the same key starting on D we would get D F# A C# = Dmaj7.

following?

The A6 is a major third with an added maj6 in relation to the root of the chord.

So A6 = A C# E F#. We know this works in the key of A major since we got our F# from the major 6 of the A major scale. However looking at the notes of the D major scale we know it will also work (diatonically) there as well.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Dec 15, 2008,
#7
^ I just call it dominant. If you said major minor to me I'd just think you were dyslexic or something and play minor major. But that would be my mistake I suppose.
Si
#8
When you have 7th chords, its assumed the 7th is flat, or dominant. Actually, in most cases, the major 7 is the one that actually has to be specified.

Not the case for 6ths

End of thread
#10
Quote by yingyangthang
When you have 7th chords, its assumed the 7th is flat, or dominant. Actually, in most cases, the major 7 is the one that actually has to be specified.

Not the case for 6ths

End of thread

Hey, I'm king of the pedants <smile> and I'm sayin you ain't correct. Where you wrote "dominant" you really mean "minor", don't you . There ain't no such beastie as a dominant seventh interval.
I think Si explained it very well indeed, though I feel explaining 7th chords as stack of Root 3 5 7 intervals in various qualities all referenced to the root, is easier conceptionally than the equally correct explanation Si used of the stack of three intervals, each of a third.
#11
Quote by R.Christie
I think Si explained it very well indeed, though I feel explaining 7th chords as stack of Root 3 5 7 intervals in various qualities all referenced to the root, is easier conceptionally than the equally correct explanation Si used of the stack of three intervals, each of a third.
Yeah. I think it's good to understand both ways, and this way often gets missed so thought I would post it for TS benefit.
Si
#12
oh wow UG is great help! thanks everyone. edit: and I actually understood it too, something i never could do at school
Originally Posted by Kill Factory
If you want to play some emo music, I recommend using these settings:


Gain: 0
Bass: 0
Mid: 0
Treble: 0

Master Volume: 0

HAHA!
Last edited by cobaindrix at Dec 16, 2008,
#13
Quote by pwrmax
It isn't, it's called Major Minor, not the other way around.

No he's right.

1 b3 5 7 is a minor traid with a major 7th = mMaj7
#14
Quote by rockinrider55
No he's right.

1 b3 5 7 is a minor traid with a major 7th = mMaj7



Exactly for this reasons it's probably called dom7. This is wayyyy less confusing. Still it's only music Jargon, and ur better off with knowing it's function then what would be the cosmetic best name for it.

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#16
Sixths and Seventh chords are very different in the way they are formed.

Let's start at the beginning....




Thankyou!!! Suddenly it all makes so much more sense
#17
Quote by R.Christie
Hey, I'm king of the pedants <smile> and I'm sayin you ain't correct. Where you wrote "dominant" you really mean "minor", don't you . There ain't no such beastie as a dominant seventh interval.
I think Si explained it very well indeed, though I feel explaining 7th chords as stack of Root 3 5 7 intervals in various qualities all referenced to the root, is easier conceptionally than the equally correct explanation Si used of the stack of three intervals, each of a third.


There IS a dominant 7, ask anyone who actually uses theory in day to day life. Take your ignorance elsewhere
#18
Quote by yingyangthang
There IS a dominant 7, ask anyone who actually uses theory in day to day life. Take your ignorance elsewhere


R.Christie is right, it's technically a minor 7th interval. A dominant 7th chord is made of the root, major third, perfect 5th, and minor 7th in terms of intervals. Most people would know exactly what you mean/wouldn't care if you say dominant 7th interval, but in terms of properly naming the interval minor 7th is correct.
#19
Quote by Stash Jam
R.Christie is right, it's technically a minor 7th interval. A dominant 7th chord is made of the root, major third, perfect 5th, and minor 7th in terms of intervals. Most people would know exactly what you mean/wouldn't care if you say dominant 7th interval, but in terms of properly naming the interval minor 7th is correct.


I dont care what anyone says. Functionally, I will never call a b7 in a major chord/scale anything but a dom7 (or obviously b7). It makes it much less confusing, saying m7 indicates a minor chord/scale, and Ill bet a million dollars anyone that uses these terms day to day wouldnt call it anything other then a dom7 either.

Its not about cosmetics, and its also not about being exactly correct in naming. Its about communicating in the most efficient way possible. And for that reason, I will never tell TS or anything that the seven in a chord voiced 1,3,5,b7, or in a scale with a M3 and dom7 that it is anything BUT a dom7

Sorry for rant, but seriously...
#20
Quote by yingyangthang
I dont care what anyone says. Functionally, I will never call a b7 in a major chord/scale anything but a dom7 (or obviously b7). It makes it much less confusing, saying m7 indicates a minor chord/scale, and Ill bet a million dollars anyone that uses these terms day to day wouldnt call it anything other then a dom7 either.

Its not about cosmetics, and its also not about being exactly correct in naming. Its about communicating in the most efficient way possible. And for that reason, I will never tell TS or anything that the seven in a chord voiced 1,3,5,b7, or in a scale with a M3 and dom7 that it is anything BUT a dom7

Sorry for rant, but seriously...


That's fine, you can do whatever you please. I was just pointing out that the proper name for the interval is a minor 7th, pretty basic stuff there. Like I said though, most people will know what you mean/won't care if you say dominant 7th in referring to an interval. I just brought it up since you said he was ignorant, sure it may be a bit pedantic but he wasn't ignorant in making that correction.
#21
On a completely different note.

It is interesting to note the chords built on relative minor/major roots.
For example a C6 chord is 1 3 5 6 = C E G A. Now we know that the relative minor of C major is Am. If we look at the seventh chord built from the root of the Am we get Am7 = 1 b3 5 b7 = A C E G. Notice that these two are an inverse of each other?

What's the point? Nothing really just an interesting relationship.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Dec 16, 2008,