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#1
Hi, sorry if this kind of topic has run rampant on the forums before but i just wanted to post something up to gather opinion on a topic which really gets me thinking. Ill try to keep this short as i could really say a lot about this topic but essentially i believe its a fine line between taking ones sound to a new levels of musical progression and appearing to sell out one's musical principles. In some cases you can understand why a band chooses to expand their sound to survive in a new musical landscape, for instance (and feel free to argue these points) many thrash fans considered Metallica's Black album as a betrayal of their roots but history justified their shift somewhat. On the other hand a musical change disguised with words like 'organic' and 'evolution' can feel like a belated attempt to ride the wave of a changing musical landscape, take for instance Linkin Park, who typified Nu Metal back in the day but scrapped their sound for the (lack of a better description here) a more 'indie-rock' 3rd major album. Bands who stay true to their original sound in a time that disregards their input are often overwhelmed and forgotten soon enough, (ie) Papa Roach, Disturbed etc - thus making it hard to blame a band for feeling the pressure to move on. Do some bands genuinely desire greater and greater maturity whilst others profess an equal devotion to evolution just to disguise their own musical shortcomings and 'sell out' greed? Gimme you thoughts and some examples (with your reasons) as to why these bands have genuinly evolved/sold out for corporate gain?
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#3
Changing Your Sound =/= Selling Out


Changing your sound to conform to the current trend and sell more albums = Selling out.
Quote by Ultraussie
I want to try that while playing the opening riff to "Tempting Time".

0-0-0-13-0-0-0-0-13 or something like that alalalala but It;s so heavy and off time and awesome and you could not f**k anyone to it.


Quote by Ingested
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#4
Musical Evolution - The band wanting to expand their boundaries musically and musically only.

Selling Out - The band wanting to change their music in order to make more money/appeal to a more mainstream audience.
#5
Opeth have acquired a good deal of commercial success, even though Watershed is arguably their least accessible album since My Arms, Your Hearse. Pretty clear example of musical evolution and not selling out.
#6
An example of a band who sold out - Yes (much to my utter dismay )

An example of a band who's evolving their sound - Coldplay (Their new album is good. Scarily good. Flame me all you want, but each song on that album sounds completely original.)
#7
I don't believe in selling-out.
The crave for money gets everyone, I don't care who you are. If Metallica thought songs like Nothing Else Matters was going to get them much, much more money, they probably never hesitated about it.
#8
It shows they dont care about what kind of tripe they release, as long as people buy it. Its sickening.


Nothing wrong with making money, but do it honestly.
Quote by Ultraussie
I want to try that while playing the opening riff to "Tempting Time".

0-0-0-13-0-0-0-0-13 or something like that alalalala but It;s so heavy and off time and awesome and you could not f**k anyone to it.


Quote by Ingested
burzum IS nazi. well, varg is.
#9
Quote by xaviergray
An example of a band who's evolving their sound - Coldplay (Their new album is good. Scarily good. Flame me all you want, but each song on that album sounds completely original.)

Joe Satriani disagrees.
#10
There is no such thing as selling out.
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#11
Quote by Darkshade666
I don't believe in selling-out.
The crave for money gets everyone, I don't care who you are. If Metallica thought songs like Nothing Else Matters was going to get them much, much more money, they probably never hesitated about it.


I dont think any true musician believes in selling out but youve gotta admit that a lot of good bands survive by catering even a little to popular demand, itd be too difficult to maintain complete control over your musical direction and its a tough enough gig already getting acclaim, thus in some respects 'selling out' can open doors for a band. Some would say Metallica are an example of this, even from the standpoint that they elevated metal to a platfom where new listeners could begin delving into metal, god knows thats how most of us heard about metal as kids, through well known acts like Metallica .
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#12
At least in my opinion, selling out is, like, doing whatever's popular just because it's popular. *coughcough*Cryptopsy*coughcough*

Also, Metallica NEVER sold out, they just started making shit music.
#13
People say lots of bands sell out because theyre sound changes. Sometimes it can be as simple as the band does not want to keep spinning their wheels. They want to do something differant, and naturally changing your sounds a little bit wouldnt be as boring for the muscian.
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#14
Just for the sake of argument, let's discuss the following; once you sign a contract to a label, making music is your business, and when you're in a business, your main goal is to make money. Therefore, the band's main objective is to make money, not please fans; they owe the fans nothing except a merchandise that they pay for, and that is all. Discuss.

Also, before anyone tries to be a douche and flame me, read the first six words carefully.
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#15
Quote by The Virtuoso
Just for the sake of argument, let's discuss the following; once you sign a contract to a label, making music is your business, and when you're in a business, your main goal is to make money. Therefore, the band's main objective is to make money, not please fans; they owe the fans nothing except a merchandise that they pay for, and that is all. Discuss.

Also, before anyone tries to be a douche and flame me, read the first six words carefully.

You should never consider music a buissness though. You should consider it more of a passion. Plus that would be betraying the fans that actually like how you sound the way you are. My point is that money shouldnt be important when it comes to music.
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#16
Quote by DewdPerson
You should never consider music a buissness though. You should consider it more of a passion. Plus that would be betraying the fans that actually like how you sound the way you are. My point is that money shouldnt be important when it comes to music.



Every artist requires some funding to carry on their passion though and like all things in this world the ability to pursue ones ambitions and hobbies is through money. Music does offer a freedom and flexibility just as painting does the painter but both art forms are dependent on the cash to survive. In some respects itd be more a betrayal of the fans to fall by the way side in order to cling to idealised notions of musical purity than to play the game to a certain extent in order to keep the music coming. Look at Pantera, they signed to labels and churned out merchandise but they served the fans musically and personally. Just because its a business dosent mean the metal music subdivision has to be compromised by greed and betrayal of ideas like the rest of the industry.
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#17
Metal isn't about money. Metal is about loving what you play, even if you need a second job to support it.

When a band releases an album solely for the purpose of making money, it is selling out. This is achieved by producing a watered down wad of crap of their former selves.

When a band releases and album, and it sells a lot, and they still love what they play, it is not selling out. Amon Amarth are good examples of this. They never sold out, yet they are one of the most popular bands today.
#18
Quote by DewdPerson
You should never consider music a buissness though. You should consider it more of a passion. Plus that would be betraying the fans that actually like how you sound the way you are. My point is that money shouldnt be important when it comes to music.



Why shouldn't it be considered a business, we all need to pay the mortgage (free e-cookie to whoever gets that reference). How is that betraying the fans, they don't owe you anything, they just owe you what you pay for, they're not in the business of pleasing you, they're in the business of supporting themselves; obviously there is the point of making music to express yourself, but by signing that contract you're becoming a part of a business, and businesses need to make money. I'm just rambling for the sake of arguing, so please don't get all pissy people.
Quote by Senor Kristian
Viking fact no. 1: Viking helmets did not have horn.
Viking fact no. 2: Vikings tobogganed on their shields into battle.
Viking fact no. 3: Vikings drank mead.
Viking fact no. 4: One of your ancestors are likely to have been raped by a viking.
#19
Quote by BringMeTheCalm
There is no such thing as selling out.

This.
Am I considered a sell-out for getting a job and making money?
No.

Although I don't have a job, the point still remains.

Also, plenty of bands have said that they have wanted to make a more "accessible" sound, but that doesn't mean that they're selling out, it just means that they wish for more people to enjoy their music, and that's understandable to a certain extent.
#20
Selling out is changing your sound, image or ideology (if your band has one) to conform to current trends.

Sonic Youth's switch to more pop-oriented material, Darkthrone's growing punk influences, or Pig Destroyer's switch to longer songs are examples of 'growth'. Radiohead's transistions over the years are the same.

Cryptopsy's headlong dive into scenedeath metal, a cashgrab. If Slipknot started trying to play 'real metal' that could be seen as a sellout, the nu-metal trend is over but they played in that genre since it was still mostly under the radar. Metallica's Black Album, could be argued as either, or both. Load and Reload are probably 'artistic growth' even if a poor example of it. Death Magnetic, clearly a second sell-out. Real metal is cool right now, and they wanna cash in.
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#21
Quote by Scourge441
Opeth have acquired a good deal of commercial success, even though Watershed is arguably their least accessible album since My Arms, Your Hearse.

Uhm...
How so? It's easily their simplest and commercial album yet, combined with Roadrunner's money and commercial appeal, I would say it's amazingly accessible.

I'm not saying Opeth sold out, just don't agree that it's harder to get.
#22
Quote by Magero
Uhm...
How so? It's easily their simplest and commercial album yet, combined with Roadrunner's money and commercial appeal, I would say it's amazingly accessible.

I'm not saying Opeth sold out, just don't agree that it's harder to get.


He means that it's the least mainstream style.
#23
If the music is still good, who cares?

Not everyone likes the idea of having a dayjob as well as a fully functional band, which means that they need to balance it together so that they don't get fired and still are able to tour. It's perfectly ok to want to be properly paid for your music, and as long as the albums are good, stylistic changes aside, why should anyone care?
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#24
Musically Evolving to me = changing your sound because it has a greater appeal to you musically, and that being the only reason

Selling out to me = changing your sound by defying your roots and dignity to make money.

Of course, there are exceptions, like say if you have a band that is on the verge of bankruptcy, and they have no way to continue making any money at all but to try and appeal to a mainstream audience. I've never actually heard of a case like this, but if I did, that would be the only time acceptable (unless there's some other twisted plot). But it WOULDN'T be acceptable if once the band makes the money they need, if they merely stayed at their cushy spot on top of the mainstream world, that would piss me off.

And whenever a band that is clearly already making enough money says that their changing there style to reach a 'wider audience', they are really saying: 'Yeah, we're greedy. We want more money, chicks and drugs.'
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#25
Quote by TheTortured
Musically Evolving to me = changing your sound because it has a greater appeal to you musically, and that being the only reason

Selling out to me = changing your sound by defying your roots and dignity to make money.

Of course, there are exceptions, like say if you have a band that is on the verge of bankruptcy, and they have no way to continue making any money at all but to try and appeal to a mainstream audience. I've never actually heard of a case like this, but if I did, that would be the only time acceptable (unless there's some other twisted plot). But it WOULDN'T be acceptable if once the band makes the money they need, if they merely stayed at their cushy spot on top of the mainstream world, that would piss me off.

And whenever a band that is clearly already making enough money says that their changing there style to reach a 'wider audience', they are really saying: 'Yeah, we're greedy. We want more money, chicks and drugs.'



/thread, i think
#26
Quote by TheTortured
Musically Evolving to me = changing your sound because it has a greater appeal to you musically, and that being the only reason

Selling out to me = changing your sound by defying your roots and dignity to make money.

Of course, there are exceptions, like say if you have a band that is on the verge of bankruptcy, and they have no way to continue making any money at all but to try and appeal to a mainstream audience. I've never actually heard of a case like this, but if I did, that would be the only time acceptable (unless there's some other twisted plot). But it WOULDN'T be acceptable if once the band makes the money they need, if they merely stayed at their cushy spot on top of the mainstream world, that would piss me off.

And whenever a band that is clearly already making enough money says that their changing there style to reach a 'wider audience', they are really saying: 'Yeah, we're greedy. We want more money, chicks and drugs.'


so youre saying that even if you get completely sick of the genre you are playing and alter it, and then happen to make a **** load of money from it, thats selling out? perhaps bands just get bored of playing the same music over and over again, so they change what they play?
#27
Stupid Thread
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#28
Quote by ~DrEaM ThEaTeR~
so youre saying that even if you get completely sick of the genre you are playing and alter it, and then happen to make a **** load of money from it, thats selling out? perhaps bands just get bored of playing the same music over and over again, so they change what they play?


If you read it again, he's not saying that at all, actually. That particular point was to say that if say, an average band with some degree of success changed their musical style solely for the purpose of getting some more fans (and hence more fame and money) rather than for the purpose of artistic pursuit, that would be selling out.

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#29
Okay on the topic of selling out how can you honestly know what musicians were thinking when the 'sold out' they may not have done it on purpose they may have decided "hey **** we like this sound lets try it". Even for cryptopsy that could have just been the "now" scene leeching into their music just through hearing it alot. honestly who cares lol why should you decide when a band sells out unless they are actually openly admitting to "we did this to make more money".


Alls im saying is that no one is really to decide on somebody's motives for composing their music when that person is not them.
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#30
^obviously there's going to be some digression. I don't think the Cryptopsy bull**** is even worth discussing though

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#32
Quote by DeAd-RiP
Okay on the topic of selling out how can you honestly know what musicians were thinking when the 'sold out' they may not have done it on purpose they may have decided "hey **** we like this sound lets try it". Even for cryptopsy that could have just been the "now" scene leeching into their music just through hearing it alot. honestly who cares lol why should you decide when a band sells out unless they are actually openly admitting to "we did this to make more money".


Alls im saying is that no one is really to decide on somebody's motives for composing their music when that person is not them.

Couldn't have said it better myself.
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#33
Quote by Magero
But it IS their most mainstream style....

Damnation disagrees

And I I'd say it's the most progressive album they've made, I wouldn't say the Fusion-Jazz part, and the blast beats + clean vocals in The Lotus Eater is mainstream
#37
Quote by Magero
The album is really simple. Even Heir Apparent is pretty mainstream for metal.

Sure for metal, but I was thinking in general, growling still isn't accepted by the general public >_>

And while it is simple, I still think it's a good album
#39
Quote by Magero
-shrugs-
I'm not saying you can't like it, just saying that it's pretty much their most mainstream album (apart from Damnation obviously).

Yeah, now that I think about it I agree

I wish they'd make an entire album that is as progressive as The Lotus Eater >_>
#40
Quote by STABxYOU
Selling out is changing your sound, image or ideology (if your band has one) to conform to current trends.

Sonic Youth's switch to more pop-oriented material, Darkthrone's growing punk influences, or Pig Destroyer's switch to longer songs are examples of 'growth'. Radiohead's transistions over the years are the same.

Cryptopsy's headlong dive into scenedeath metal, a cashgrab. If Slipknot started trying to play 'real metal' that could be seen as a sellout, the nu-metal trend is over but they played in that genre since it was still mostly under the radar. Metallica's Black Album, could be argued as either, or both. Load and Reload are probably 'artistic growth' even if a poor example of it. Death Magnetic, clearly a second sell-out. Real metal is cool right now, and they wanna cash in.


I take your point about Metallica but surely a band who brought 'real metal' so much success and so many new fans (authentic, not just bandwagon jumpers) back in the day deserve the right to go more or less back to their roots with an album like Death Magnetic? Same with Machine Head, im sure no one would begrudge them a return to their real metal roots with The Blackening album after those years of nu metal dabbling shambles.
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